hi from Eindhoven Netherlands

[wheelboy]

Hi iam mario 48 and living in Eindhoven Netherlands .Iam using a wheelchair for about 10 years now .If got an open heart churgery and got a wheelchair for free with it .Deu to the operation my brain got damaged .And left me with 2 spastic underlegs .I can still stand on them but walking is another thing .Last week i got a brand new permobil c350 my first powerchair .Due to arthrosis and an atery that was removed from my underarm .Long distance riding in a hand chair got worse and worse .

Yesterday i drove for the first time ouside the house . Lost 2 caps on the front wheels that prevent dirt cumming by the bearings .Also very cold hands lol .couldnt hold the stick almost anymore .The permobil sits really good .But riding is like a turtle men 10km is for old ladys not for me .So iam looking if its possible to get more speed out of the thing .So any suggestions would be welcome .

Greetings Mario

[Burgerman]

There are no simple options.

There are also a few issues if you change that chair for a faster one, such as reduced range, less torque for ramps etc.

Unless you go all the way like this: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3- ... rchair.htm

That will do 15 mph. It does so without reduction in range, and without reduction in torque. But requires lots of technical knowledge, as well as very expensive lithium batteries. Lead based batteries simply cant do this.

[Martin O Refurbisher]

Welcome Mario.
As Burgeman says, no easy answers. If the use is outdoors only, consider petrol powered.
Otherewise the fastest production chair is something like the 13kph Sunrise Groove. This is also the donor for some specials.

Best,

Martin

[wheelboy]

as u said not so eazy to do .Well than i have to live with it that it goes granny speed >damm and the guy from social services wanted to give me a 6km version of this .I had to come with very good arguments why a 10km version would be better .Lol i live 3km from my work so that would take me half an hr to get there with a 6km version .now apox 15mins . when its 25c outside and sunny its no problem .But this time of the year its wet and cold.

LOl i was a train engeneer thought i knew a little bit of powerchair engeneering .I thought the speed was limited by software .And that with a little programming it could be done .Seems my thoughts were fault .lol A powerchair isnt a train.

what i dont understand is that if u can make one that doesnt cost as much as a regular chair .That the big manufactors cant make one .When i got my power chair fitting the power chairs i saw were almost all straigt from an old folks home .i think what they did in the 90s with manual chairs they should do also with power chairs .now.But i dont think they will .Since there is almost no pressure to do so .We need them and most of us cant do without .They know that thats why i think there is almost no progress in it .They think of us as one group .What i would like to know if they know that there are diffrent powerchair users .

Also the cost of the chairs is rediculous .Here in the netherlands the permobil c350 cost 7600 euros .thats without batterys and loader .Have you ever bought a car without a battery lights gastank ? I saw at a site in the us the same chair for 4900 usd .Also without batt and loader >and another thing why does a loader have to cost 600 euros? if i buy one for my car its apos 30 euros .The reason they are expencive here is that we dont have to buy them we get them from social services(when you are working ) ore the town your living in .Lol the last one you can see wich town is rich and wich is poor .

[wheelboy]

Well my chair is a week old now .yesterday i went outside for the first time (uninshured) .The compagny who deliverd it to me forgot to put a insurance tag on it >i called them yesterday the have posted it .So it will be here tomorrow .But i coldnt wait to get outside .went for a 2x8km ride to a friend of mine .Damm lost to caps that protect the front bearings from getting sand and dirt in them .Had my manual wheelchair gloves on (no fingers in it ) lol thought my fingers were frozen to the stick(lol 6c outside and moisty) .Called today again for the two covers well the have to order them and put them on the chair .I told them why dont you send them by mail to me and ill put them on it myselve .No permobil doesnt send them straight to you .

also what i read here is that they wont give you the programm to prog your chair yourselve lol there isnt any apparatus in the world that i would buy myselve if i cant change the firmware .Thats one of my hobbies .getting apparatus to do more than the do when the come from the shop .esp sat recievers .

[Burgerman]

Why can I build a fast properly finished lithium powered chair, with better bild quality, better components, kevlar lined puncture proof tyres, 15 mph CHEAPER than the manufacturers crap? Because I care, and because I dont need to make a humungous profit. The manufacturers have no competition, no imagination, and they sell the badly finished, underpowered overweight lead battery powered things every day. So no pressure to move to THIS century.

[Martin O Refurbisher]

There is the old quote attributed to Calvin Coolidge:


Persistence:
“
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.

Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
“

Calvin Coolidge 30th president of US (1872 - 1933)

I could not put it better!

This board is a huge resource of ideas and of like minded people who want better powerchairs - I suggest you mine it.

Best,

Martin

[ex-Gooserider]

I would add to what BM said about the higher cost of factory chairs, which is also a factor in why the manufacturers don't make more capable chairs... When one of us makes our own chair, we don't have to pay any attention to safety standards or other government rules and regulations that apply to the manufacturers... Thus we can make what we want, at little more cost than purchasing the materials.

When a manufacturer makes a chair, he has extensive record keeping requirements, where every part of the design must be documented extensively with proof that the design is adequate, other options have been given proper consideration, and so forth. Part of this is a bunch of very stringent safety and other standards that supposedly will keep anyone from possibly hurting themselves (mostly by adding excessive bulk, and making it handle like a grannymobile) - which ties back into the documentation, and also somewhat limits their design options. All of this increases their costs, which have to be passed on to the customers, and decreases their willingness to do new designs which have high costs that might be hard to recover from a smaller customer base...

In addition, it is important to remember that the chair companies main customers are NOT us handicapped folks, but the various government agencies and insurance companies that actually pay for the chairs we get... Long as those companies are happy, they don't care if we are...

ex-Gooserider

[wheelboy]

Thats tru,

I get the idea that the dutch gov doesnt look futher then their own borders .And then complian that it gets more and more expencive .Why does the same powerchair in the us cost almost half of what it cost here?Even when they are not made in the us like permobil .Answer the dutch gov pays for our chairs here mainly out of 2 budgets .If u work true the employer insurance (social services) ore the town that gets a budget for it.So nobody looks whats intresting for us .The say we are looking for the cheapest fiting solution for you .They dont care how the wheelchair looks ore even if your sitting in it good .

Here they are saying ok you need a powerchair .what kind of things do you really need .They have a pakkage were some types of wheelchairs are in and there you can make a choise out .Iam not sure how it is in other countrys .But i can imagain if they would gave you a budget to look for a powerchair yourselve .And than diside ok that one will fit your needs you can have it .I think that if i had to buy a chair myselve with a budget it would be less expencive as they bought it .I did so with my basketball chair few years ago .Give the people the choise if they want a budget and than get green ligt after a person has looked in 2 it .Ore as it is now if you arnt intrested in looking 4 yourselve.

Here you get 5000 euros every 3 years for a sports chair .I asked my town can i buy it in the us .No problem as long as we have the bill .the basic chair was 2990 euros here in the netherlands and apox 1500 in the us (2090 usd) also bought a pair of spinergy spox with flexrims on it here 1600 euros a pair .in the us 700 with the s&h from us to the netherlands .I got what i wanted and even more .3 years before i had a steel basketball chair ith no extras and id cost more than the one wit all the tings on it .Sadly i had to sell it since i cant basketball anymore .

What i hope 4 the future would be (dont think iam going to see that ) is a more catogorised powerchairs .What i mean with it .A granny chair a chair for more heavy disabled persons . Ore a powechair that can be customised with al kind of stuff were the factory lets you alter the software were the speed and all kind of ajustments can be customised to the needs of the person .were not all living in an old parents home .With hand chairs you do see those catogories .I havent seen them with powechairs .

When i had to fit and choose out of the pakkage they have with powerchairs i had my reservations .For me it felt like i was more handicapped than the hr before when i arrived with my handchair.They havent really got the idea what it is to are in need of a powechair and how the world looks at you .In the past i always sayd to governement people who had to diside .Its not the person they are looking at its the wheelchair your sitting in that they are looking at.Abled people seem to forget that also .

Yes i have the same meaning that not one disabled person is there in those factorys that make powerchairs .At least thats the idea i have .

Also i can imagain that all the testing and paperwork with medical stuff isnt a one day dissision .But doesnt it go to far .When i visit the us and see how well documented a microwave is and that you dont put a cat in it to dry i ask myselve .Isnt that going to far .shouldnt you use your brain sometimes a littlebit .I see the same with the use of a powerchair .I always drove a motorbike (cbr600 gpx 600 zxr750) they go well over the speed limit but it was my choise to drive faster .no speed limit on them .


Last but not least .Confined to a chair is rotten i would rather walk than roll .But wen needed lets make it as good as possible .And the extras we want that the gov doesnt pay cheaper so that we can buy it our selve if we want to .that makes it more to bear.

[Martin O Refurbisher]

Wheelboy
You have just made the points well.

1. No two of us are the same.

2. That it pays to shop around.

3. Pressure should be kept up on the local Social Services / Medicaid or other funder to give us the budget and let us make our own choices.

Best,

Martin

[LROBBINS]

When a manufacturer makes a chair, he has extensive record keeping requirements, where every part of the design must be documented extensively with proof that the design is adequate, other options have been given proper consideration, and so forth. Part of this is a bunch of very stringent safety and other standards

While bureaucratic regulation surely inhibits innovation, assuming that the manufacturer really wants to innovate in the first place, the absence of such regulation, or shortcuts taken to avoid that regulation, has consequences too. Here's a link to one case that regards worker safety regulation rather than product design regulation,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46143670/ns/business-us_business/#.TyE_AHqfW9s
but there are far too many instances where ignoring certification requirements, sometimes with malintent, other times perhaps just out of stupidity, have led to marketing of life-threatening products. The recent case of breast implants in which contaminated, industrial-grade materials were used instead of medically-certified materials, is surely criminal, and the CEO is now in a French jail awaiting trial. Other cases don't seem to involve criminal intent, but are still worrisome: a search, for example, for Medtronic recalls and safety warnings will come up with public domain documents that are not very reassuring, and the case of radiation therapy software that all too-easily led to horrid overdoses is another. On a more mundane level, the Italian equivalent of Consumer Reports recently tested some imported small, cheap home appliances (made where good manufacturing practices are not enforced) and found multiple, frightening cases of electrical and thermal dangers.

While demanding engineering justification of every nut and bolt (as JoeC described very well in a post in the wheelchair reviews section) can be a horrid impediment to making better products, one can't legislate "smarts" and can only legislate procedures that might avoid "idiocies" (and just plain greed) from hurting or killing people. Balancing freedom and safety is never going to be an easy task, and each of us probably has a bit different view on where that balance should be. Most of us here, for example, very much object to lack of access to OEM-level programming tools, but I, for one, would not want to see uncontrolled distribution of these to anyone who asks for it because in the hands of the sloppy or ignorant they can indeed do great harm. Not one of the durable medical equipment dealers that I have had personal contact with in either the U.S. or Italy should have an OEM programmer!

Luckily, many of us live in societies where, as individuals, we can take risks to try to do things better and where we are free to publicise our experiments, and our mistakes, so that others can learn from them. It may take a long, long time to see the positive results reach the general public, but we can at least hope that eventually some of them will. John's latest LiFePO4 project is a case in point. Only when the BM3 has been in use for a while will John really know whether it meets his design goals, and only then will John know what the side effects are (e.g. does moving the CG up with the lighter batteries too badly compromised stability?). Even then, and even if 100% successfull, it will be still be a design for the very techy, and not a plug-and-play solution that would be usable by more than those few. Once its functional superiority has been demonstrated, however, we can at least hope that someone will start working on things that would make it usable by others.

I hope you don't see my bit of devil's advocacy as blind support of an often non-functional industry, but if we want to see change I think we're also going to have to try to understand the other side and avoid vituperative attitudes.

Ciao,
Lenny

[wheelboy]

well to the social services/medicaid i say start to think what we wanna have between the lines of a budget .I can imagain that theys say ok a guy with this dissability we spend say 10000 euros on a wheelchair .you can look for yourselve ore you let us do it .If the chair you wanna have meets our demands and suits you no porblem .But i think they wanna make the choise 4 you not us .Here they put 4 powerchairs on a row and say well this is the pakkage we have .and nessesery we wil make it fit for you .If you havent put your own time in it what you want what kind of cushion you wanna have in it .What kind of extras you really need .You end up with a chair that doesnt work for you were you sit in for years until it falls appart .

This happned to me when i got my first hand chair 10 years ago .i got back neck shoulder problems for 3 years ,had few times in a year rash spots on my butt (i have urin incontinence ) .since i still have sensation it itsches like hell .finally i broke the chair myselve since it was a hell sitting in it .

the next one was very good lol took me a lot of convincing but i got it .Even the guy from the compagny my town hired wanted to put me in a crappy chair and hes a wheelchair user himselve .I told him to go sit in it himselve and left the store .he rolled after me and told me i have to take it .I sayd will see about that .iam never going to sit in a kuschall/quickie anymore .Got me after a little war with the town 2 brand new titanium wheelchairs .lol a tilite with spinergey wheels a varilite cushion in both and a topend crossfire also with spinergy spox wheels .Afterwards i heard from another sales man i was a spoiled brat that guy that want to put me in that crappy chair sayed .Well not sure how you say it in english but here they say the pot acuses the kettle to be hot .with other words he had 7 demo chairs .

thats the way it goes here .When you dont look on the internet and dont spend some time to look whats good whats bad you end up with a crappy chair .oh btw i love my varilite cushion with psv vent (lol psv is my towns football (soccer ) team .And the answer i got from that sales person .well you end up getting sea sick with that cushion .I use it now for 3 years and dont want another one .OH and untill now never got seasick

[LROBBINS]

pot calling the kettle black

[wheelboy]

lol thats what i ment .almost the same in dutch

[malamar]

In Spanish
" la sarten le dice al cazo: aparta, que me tiznas"

[wheelboy]

De pot verwijt de de ketel dat hij zwart is .

Lol in Dutch