Hong kong.

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Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 09 Jun 2019, 20:17

Half a million on the streets protesting a new extradition law. Further attempts to return hong kong to mainland china control. Freedoms and other human rights are being slowly removed. What was once a very rich, free and capitalist rich place will be re-absobed into the chinese mainlands communist system.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby greybeard » 09 Jun 2019, 21:10

It was inevitable.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 09 Jun 2019, 21:46

May have been better to remain part of UKs territory.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby greybeard » 09 Jun 2019, 23:06

Wasn't possible I don't think. We were obliged to hand it back to China under the original treaty that gave UK temporary control of Hong Kong.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby wheelie junkie » 10 Jun 2019, 11:04

We were obligated to return it but at the same time there were obligations on the Chinese not to remove HK residents rights. Chris Patten spoke yesterday saying that they were breaking the terms of that agreement. Very little we can do about it. Working in Taiwan you see the power that the Chinese have, most young Taiwanese just accept it fearing a conflict with China. I used to prefer being in either rather than mainland China, avoided that whenever I could.

China now using both Taiwan and HKG to avoid Trump's tariffs, shipping goods from both instead of China. They'll do whatever they need to to get around rules.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Scooterman » 10 Jun 2019, 11:36

Back in the '70s and '80s, far east goods were more often than not marked 'made in hong kong'. But now everything says 'made in china'. I guess the change had something to do with HKG going back under Chinese control?
But I'm not sure, the far east is a long way away and the geography and politics is confusing...
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 10 Jun 2019, 13:32

Basically what happened was 2 things.
1. the chinese decided that HK was making much more money than they were.
2. so they decded to allow a lot of capitalist style free trade, in a supposed still planned economy in the sae way. And that did what capitalism always does. Now china went from being the poorest place to a modern rich country with all the advantages that brings. Yes even to the poor who also live uch better. But it goes against all their socialist ideals, and against the normal communist system. So they basically had to hold their noses and do capitalist style 'free trade', allow ownership of business, propertly, money, etc. Now they see that HK has always had this, but they dont like the fact that the people there also have free speech and huan rights. Thats not comunist enough... Hence ever creeping chinese control of rights and laws. And so now the riots and marches... As today
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby wheelie junkie » 10 Jun 2019, 16:26

Same thing in Taiwan, it realised the benefits of international trade and successfully generated business with the population benefiting from it. From pedal bikes and paddy fields to Toyotas and steel/glass high rise buildings in less than 20 years. It was always a difficult relationship with the mainland but increasingly China has taken over. Many Taiwanese factories opened up sister factories on the mainland exploiting the cheaper labour as Taiwanese labour got more expensive. It kept the Chinese government happy as well.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 10 Jun 2019, 22:52

The problem with the communist/socialists adopting capitalist economics is that it results in an oddball self contradictory system. And one that still restricts human rights, and frequently much worse...
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 12 Jun 2019, 14:54

And days on, tear gas, water jets, rubber bullets, millions on streets. And pepper spray by police in the streets.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby sacharlie » 12 Jun 2019, 15:38

Reminds me of OWS over here.
Here in the USA GREED is GLORIFIED. The TOP 0.25% live off the backs of the WORKING MIDDLE CLASS.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 12 Jun 2019, 16:32

OWS?
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby sacharlie » 12 Jun 2019, 17:41

Yes that's when wall street had the government SOCIALIZE the losses of a half dozen banks and insurance cos. Then all the CEOs took BIG BONUSES. Crony Capitalism at its best here in the United Corporations of America.

OWS was a peaceful protest by the working class put the police wouln't have any of that. Rubber bullets and mace in the eyes.
Here in the USA GREED is GLORIFIED. The TOP 0.25% live off the backs of the WORKING MIDDLE CLASS.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 12 Jun 2019, 18:14

Ah well the answer to that is simple. Vote for a proper capitalist free trade government, one that protects the property rights and other human rights of the population and minds its own damned business with the running of businesses. Yours was too socialist. A capitalist one would allow a business - even a bank - to fail. A socialist one uses public money to bail it out. Just like ours did.

OWS was a peaceful protest by the working class put the police wouln't have any of that. Rubber bullets and mace in the eyes.

But unlike the HK protest, that are trying to KEEP their capitalist run country (with all the freedoms and human rights and wealth that it creates) from the corrupt socialist chinese, where in common with all socialist countries, these freedoms are to put it mildly 'missing' (I wont go into pages of details), but as happens in all socialist systems, they become very controling and corrupt). Your OWS are protesting FOR a more socialist system, and with it less freedoms and less wealth. So is the exact opposite to HK!
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby sacharlie » 12 Jun 2019, 18:22

Burgerman wrote:Ah well the answer to that is simple. Vote for a proper capitalist free trade government, one that protects the property rights and other human rights of the population and minds its own damned business with the running of businesses. Yours was too socialist. A capitalist one would allow a business - even a bank - to fail. A socialist one uses public money to bail it out. Just like ours did.


There is your confusion showing itself. In your above post replace "crony capitalist" everywhere you mistakenly typed "socialist". It should clear up your misunderstanding of USA economics.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 12 Jun 2019, 18:26

I have no missunderstanding. However your sig shows that you clearly do.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby sacharlie » 12 Jun 2019, 18:29

Burgerman wrote:Your OWS are protesting FOR a more socialist system, and with it less freedoms and less wealth. So is the exact opposite to HK!


Just how high did my brief description of OWS fly over & above your head? banghead
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 12 Jun 2019, 18:31

It didnt. And tHere will ALWAYS be some level of crony capitalism. Thats your job as a voter, to get rid of. Its relatively minor, in the scheme of things.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby sacharlie » 12 Jun 2019, 22:57

So if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck you will say it's not a duck, it's a socialist. :fencing
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 13 Jun 2019, 00:53

Depends if the duck believes in socialism, socialist ideals, socialist economics ( :clap: ) or anything like regulations or other practices that is buggering up the free market for the other ducks. Does it go around stealing x % of the food from the ducks that have found the most and giving it to those that are sat around in the sun? Or eating it itself? If so its a socialist duck.

If it farms a bit of duckweed, and breeds fish, and employs other ducks to do this in bulk to sell to the other ducks that are sat on the grass sunbathing, its a capitalist duck. And they can all eat.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby sacharlie » 13 Jun 2019, 02:32

:clap :dance cheers
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby wheelie junkie » 13 Jun 2019, 12:13

We effectively got told to keep our noses out of it by the Chinese ambassador to the UK last night. Thatcher's treaty has run it's course. He claimed that there would still be one country, 2 systems haha! Protesters successfully removed from outside the government buildings, no need for another Tiananmen Square massacre.

HK will change, I always enjoyed being there but wouldn't if it does change.
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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Lord Chatterley » 09 Jul 2019, 11:46

sacharlie wrote:So if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck you will say it's not a duck, it's a socialist. :fencing


I have a question for you, sacharlie.

Socialism means: state ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.

Capitalism means: private ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.

Why do YOU think socialism ALWAYS fails? From China to Venezuela the result is always the same - the more socialist a country is the worse it becomes - the more capitalist, the better it becomes.

I KNOW why - but how do you account for it?

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Re: Hong kong.

Postby Burgerman » 09 Jul 2019, 15:19

I know why too. Many SOCIALISTS also know why. But they cant let the reality spoil their ideals.

He never answers that question.

He will soon find out whay all socialism causes a country to have lower living standards. If that other lot get in and trump loses. Esp is some nut like sanders who is another loony gets to have his way. :lol: It will all go great to begin with, always does. Lots of (other peoples) money around. Then the shit hits the rotating thingy and oops...
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