Lithium solid-state cells

[steves1977uk]

This is an interesting read... https://electrek.co/2024/04/03/new-soli ... ile-range/

How do those compare to LiFePO4 cells? I looked on the batteryuniversity.com website but there's nothing on solid-state cells yet.

Steve

[LROBBINS]

Interesting, but still a prototype and no mention of safety. Perhaps of more immediate interest is the Blade battery from BYD - LiFePO4 re-packaged internally as thin laminated, layers so that it takes much less space for the same capacity. BYD will be selling cars with them soon (or maybe already is) and they are already on the retail market https://it.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-blade-battery.html?spm=a2g0o.home.search.0.

[Burgerman]

My opinion is that I have been reading press releases about breakthrough battery technology for 25 years. Thousands of them. All kinds of solid state, liquid metal, air, salt, a million types of lithium variant, sodium, potasium, batteries that charge in 60 seconds (impossible by the way to charge faster than teslas do now) and many others. In 25 years I never saw any of that stuff appear in the actual market to buy or any of it to be used in EVs or the normal bleeding edge technology - hobby use. Non! Its always about research, grants, shares, etc and frequently another student thing much like the way they keep reinventing star climbing wheelchairs or flying cars. All that ever happens is small incremental improvements in energy densty over tie and changes in packaging. As noted by lenny.

I will believe it when some new battery technology is actually available and competitive in the free market. Until hen its all just more £££research$$$ and share price or investor pushing...

Until then I can do it too. I am developing a battery that uses some super complicated chemistry that will give double the range and half the size/weight and charge in 60 seconds while being freproof. I just need more funding. So please invest here burgerman@wheelchairdriver.com via paypal. Thanks! Should be done by 2030 (maybe). Or I will...

[Burgerman]

I MIGHT ADD THAT I was using the highest energy density Lithium batteries in model helicopters and planes in 1997. 27 YEARS ago! Nothing has yet beaten those lipo packs for power to weight, low internal resistance (a 4Ah one will start your car and charge from 0 to 100% in 6 mins). Thats a 4Ah battery as small as a back of cigarettes that charges at max power at 40A for 99% of its charge. In 6 mins.

So 27 years later nothing has beaten those figures. I keep watching and reading but I have seen all the claims before!

[steves1977uk]

Trying to educate Facetubers... Here's what I wrote...

Heard it all before, millions wasted on new battery technology projects that don't come to anything. The safest Lithium cell is LiFePO4 which doesn't ignite if punctured. This is what BYD are using in their cars.

A persons reply...

No they're not. LiFePO4 is a great mix, but a lousy EV battery. It's very slow to charge, slow to discharge and doesn't hold as much as other chemistries. It's absolutely fantastic as a battery backup but not as good for something that is constantly charging/discharging.

Seems you can't educate stupid people.

Then there was this reply from another user...

If BYD uses that type of battery why do they keep catching on fire.

My reply...

I assume it's the BMS they use to manage the cells, those are notorious for catching fire. I have been using LiFePO4 cells in my powerchair since late 2014 with no BMS and a Powerlab 8 charger which charges and balances the cells.

An onboard BMS is just asking for trouble.

Steve

[Burgerman]

There are about 8 billion people in the world. The vast majority have no clue about anything. Half of them by definition are of below average IQ. All are inexperienced, and youtubers all teach each other and most of those are clueless too. Its the money you see... The more junk you crank out and the more money you make from ad shares etc. So people with sod all real knowledge all suddenly turn into experts. And start explaining everything they just read or watched elsewhere to the "masses". And the more followers they get the more these masses think they are experts. And like most people logic and reason are far less important than "following" an "expert"...

Its true that lithium ion of various variations are the most used in EVs. And its tru that they do store more energy than LiFePO4. So we would go further and a BMS would work much better due to the shape of the discharge curve if we used one. But they burn. And so do we. And we cannot get off it, or run away. And we store these in the house or next to a bed. So a fire is much worse and the risk isnt worth it. Although nobody told the folding chair market this (Hello Sunrise!).

Its also true that LiFePO4 lasts 2k to 5K cycles as long as you avoid the full charge and discharge points and keep them balanced and dont exceed or go near the claimed C rate.

Its also true the EV type of cell - lithium ion - has between 500 and 700 cycles. Way way worse. So they need to use a bigger Ah pack, but not charge it beyond around 85% (as I do with my laptop) and not discharge it past 15% charge (again as I do with my laptop, in order to get around 1500 to 2000 cycles. So the fact that it has greater storage is partly negated.

C rates. Its also true that lithium ion has a higher C rate than a typical LiFePO4 cell.. But if you fit a BIG ENOUGH pack this too is irrrelivant. But all of this is down to the whole design. Lithium isnt a battery its a system. Eveyrthing needs to be considered including the car, motors, charge and control system and so on.

[LROBBINS]

To "clear the air!" a bit, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_battery. BTW, Tesla is using these for the model Y produced at their German factory.

[Burgerman]

Tesla are using lfp too in a few of their cars mostly in the chinese market with slightly less range/performance. Because it suits that market.

[steves1977uk]

I found this article posted on an EV group... https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/04/10/ ... batteries/

Smells like BS to me!

Steve

[Burgerman]

Its mostly true except that this explains why we see lots of laptop and phone fires. Or chinese scooters etc. And no LFP ones:

The key factor is the pyrolysis temperature and for lifepo4 this is over 1100C and far in excess of that achieving a home fire. Nimc is lower and more fires have been reported with this technology.

In almost all cases where a LFP battery burned it was caused by a BMS in the first place. And we dont fit them.

[steves1977uk]

Yes that's true BM, but the article doesn't state it was the BMS catching fire and not the actual LFP cells. Unless I missed that bit.

Here's the FB group where you can read some of my replies... https://www.facebook.com/groups/2333275880189834

Steve

[Burgerman]

No account. And not getting one!

[steves1977uk]

You can ignore that create an account popup BM, just close it to read the page.

Also here's the clueless typical user on there...

Was trying to explain that charging an EV with a long AC cable from a house would take longer than a short cable, but dumbo doesn't get it!

Steve

[Burgerman]

Well he is actually correct. The charger isnt a charger. The long cables on EVs are just AC mains cables. They deliver AC to the charger. The charger is an inverter and so it corrects the voltage and it is in the car. So the battery gets the same voltage regardless as long as the voltage drop on the AC cable isnt enough to stop the charger actually working.

It matters on our chairs as we charge and balance at 24V and 3.6V while the voltage for each is regulated and set at the charger. So cable resistance under a DC corect voltage load drops the voltage some. It increases again as the current falls as it becomes full. So they get there in the end. Thats different to an EV. So unfortunately in this case he is correct!

When it comes to some of the super high powered tesla superchargers things are a little different and the charge cables can be liquid cooled and heavy cables and so those probably are better short if only for cost reasons.

The charger you have on a house for e.g. for your EV isnt a charger. It is just a way to hook the AC to your car. It is connected to a cable that runs from the street, to your house, through the house wiring and to the "charger". So the last bit of cable going to the car is almost irrelivant as far as extra length is concerned. That 240v wire runs back as far as the sub station or transformer.

[steves1977uk]

So AC current isn't affected by cable length? I know DC is affected by volt drop the longer the cable is.

Am I right in saying most of the high power chargers are DC only, hence the heavy and short cables they use?

Steve

[Burgerman]

Well you are right that the superchargers and proposed really powerful chargers use DC. Its not that AC is different to DC as far as voltage drop is concerned. Its that with AC thats the power and the on board charger can increase or decrease this to make the DC battery charge voltage correct regardless.

Think about the PL8. It runs on DC. The supply runs on AC. Its regulated. The mains voltage doesent change the power supply voltage output. The DC supply can vary to the PL8 and its output doesent change either. The OUTPUT doesent change because it is carefully controlled by the charger.
The length of the cables feeding it, or the power supply dont matter. If you lose a volt on the way, then a bit gets wasted in heat and you lose a tiny bit of efficiency. The charger still sends 25 or 40A and its carefully chosen 3.600v per cell voltage to the battery. In fact you can turn the power supply up or down a few volts. It doesent affect the charge.

The PL8 is a charger. You can feed it 10V or 30V it can still charge the battery at a set rate of say 10A and 24V regardless. So does the one in a tesla. The cables feeding a charger dont make a lot of difference. The ones between charger and battery do. Because a .5v drop here is a big change. Your charge current comes from the DIFFERENCE between the charger voltage and the battery voltage. That may only be .5 of a volt... In an EV the charger is in the car.

The reason they use heavy cables is because they are trying to put back around 100kwh in a few minutes... If they were any thinner they would overheat or melt. This is why the mythical charge in 5 minutes lithium EV battery we keep reading about cant work. You would short out the grid trying to charge it. Millions of watts. Cables 9 inches thick. The reason the grid gets away with cables that are thinner is because they use 750k volts or 1 million volts in places. Even the ones running to farms etc are 11k volts. Or they would waste crap loads of energy as heat. Higher the voltage the less amps are pulled at any given power level. And with lower voltages they would need to be much thicker. Teslas are around 400V I think. Not much considering the amount of power needed. So heavy expensive water cooled cables...

[steves1977uk]

Thanks for that BM, really helpful! Think mixing with a bunch of facetube idiots have confused my brain! Some on there insists CO2 is bad and "climate change" is real! I keep telling them it's a load of crap and they'll believe anything they're told!

They keep on about how "green" their EVs are, that's great if you don't want to travel far. But sometimes I do over 1,000 miles a week with Melissa and she wouldn't want to waste time at a public charger waiting for my van to recharge. They don't like the fact fossil fuels are the best for travelling around the country, and go further than the best EV!

Sure maybe one day EVs will surpass petrol/diesel in energy density, but I can't see that happening in the next 25 years+.

Steve

[Burgerman]

They keep on about how "green" their EVs are, that's great if you don't want to travel far.

they certainly are not green to make. The greenest car is the one you already have as you dont need to manufacture a new one or destroy the planet mining the battery chemicals and other metals and of course most of the plastics, tyres, lubricants, wiring and hoses are all made from oil... As are the roads. Even concrete ones need fossil fuels. And of course you have to charge them. Using coal, natural gas, and oil, mostly.

There are around 5 days a year where the wind/solar makes up to 50% of the power needed. For an hour or two.
There are around 60 days a year where wind/solar generation is practically zero for up to 3 or 4 days continually.

On average ist around 15 to 30% most of the time. But thats only the charging energy. The manufacturing energy is almost completely coal (china steel etc) and so the idea that its green is for the birds.

And thats if you are daft enough to believe the global warming by humans thing, and you dont think its all blown out of all proportion, and if you thing that warmer is bad anyway!

[steves1977uk]

You proved my point perfectly BM! I have to laugh when they say they can charge mostly via solar power but it takes a few days! I'm like what happens when you have an emergency and you need your car quickly, they simply don't have an answer. I love playing with them and make them look foolish.

Out of interest, how big of solar array would you need to charge a Trashla BM? I'm guessing a typical house with roof mounted solar panels wouldn't be enough?

Steve

[Burgerman]

Well lets do some math.

A typical solar system in the UK is 2 to 3kw. More than 3kw wasnt usual due to the way tarrifs and governent handing out normal peoples tax money as an incentive worked.

A 3 kilowatt solar system may reach 3kw during a brief bright cool day for a few moments. In summer... Most of the time the best you see IF ITS SUNNY and this is britain is around 2kw. But to put that into perspective this isnt usually for long and only in summer. Remember a cloud, output drops. Early in the day, later in the day, output drops a lot. In winter the output is anything from practically zero to a few hundred watts even at noon. And non at night obviously summer included. In winter that can be 3/4 of every day is dark... And unless the panels track the sun then angle isnt optimum for most of the day either and so power drops again.

If you try to charge a 100kwh tesla from an average 3kw solar system it would take 33 hours at peak power. At 3kw. But as we see above you dont get 3kw, and you only get a few hours a day at best on good days. So anything from around 5 days or so? To how long is a piece of string. Maybe 2 weeks or more in winter.

In summer I get up to 15kwh per day. So that would be 100kwh div by 15 = aroound 1 week. In winter I get 10% of that at best so 10 weeks. And everything in between during the in between sumer/winter times...

Not to mention that at todays prices of electricity 100kwh is more expensive than filling up a small diesel car which goes further.

[steves1977uk]

That makes sense BM. I know there's a cheap 7p tariff for EV owners at night, but they are deluded if they think most of their power comes from solar charging.

Wasn't there someone who mounted 2 solar panels to a mobility scooter? Same thing but the solar power couldn't keep up with the current draw. So not really an efficient way of producing power.

Steve

[steves1977uk]

An EXPRESS article... https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/ca ... fuel-sales Can't see that happening to be honest. Probably a paid-off greeny reporter!

Steve

[Burgerman]

Its a religion.

[Burgerman]

I know there's a cheap 7p tariff for EV owners at night, but they are deluded if they think most of their power comes from solar charging.

Welll if they are charging at night then unless the wires are 8000 miles long then non of its from solar!

[Burgerman]

Also, winter is the time of year that wind power is crap. Its driven by the sun warming the air so the northern hemisphere has less wind in winter. Also obviouly theres less heat and light in the winter and so solar is dismally crap too.

Have a guess what time of the year people need lights on 18 hours a day? Have a guess what time of the year we need to heat our homes (which is 80% of all energy used yearly)? Yep. Winter! So at the times that we NEED power renewables are missing...

Non of i makes sense because the only times that renewables work well are in summer. More wind, more hours of light/sun. The very times its not required...

So for the times when its dark (half of the day on average. The times when the wind does not blow, winter mostly! Then we need even more gas, coal, oil, nuclear than we did even 5 years ago. Mostly because theres now 5 million extra migrants here keeping warm and driving, needing food, and eerything ele that all takes power.

So the whole idea that planting a few windmills to run everything is a rediculous very costly joke.

[steves1977uk]

This video was just posted on the group...


youtu.be/BiSfUE7r0sU

30 Minutes to recharge 100,000 cells????? Someone's deffo smoking the hippy crack!

Steve

[steves1977uk]

BM, I'd be interested on your thought's on this comment about solar power from a claimed "Chartered Electrical/Electronics Engineer"...

As for claiming anything, again, I trust the data. Like this April morning: 3°C outside, 7am, 20°C inside thanks to 2-1 heatpump and still the PV panels are producing about as much electricity as we’re using. Even on a foggy or rainy day, they still produce as much power as the house takes on standby (about 300W).

And although the PV panels produce less in winter, obviously, we use more of it, as a percentage. We don’t have home storage, so give about 1MWh away a year of the 4MWh. That used to be closer to 2MWh, but the EVs help soak a MWh of that up. And a newer charger would help use all of it. (A dumb 5 year old unit).

It’s a model that works, in many places, even the Orkneys. In sunnier climbs, so well that some new developments are going off-grid. In the right places it’s cheaper and more reliable than connecting to a grid.

Sounds like pure BS to me.

Steve

[Burgerman]

As for claiming anything, again, I trust the data. Like this April morning: 3°C outside, 7am, 20°C inside thanks to 2-1 heatpump and still the PV panels are producing about as much electricity as we’re using. Even on a foggy or rainy day, they still produce as much power as the house takes on standby (about 300W).

So heating a whole house when its 3C outside with 300 watts to 20C really does sound somewhat fishy. April is one of the btter solar months and yes 300 wats early morning is possible. At times... When its cold panels are more efficient. So initial bright light works quite well. As the sun or temperatre increases not so much...

Heres an accurate live april figure. Its still light, and I am making 20.5 watts. From a 3kw panel setup. 7.20 PM. In order to keep my room only warm, (just one insulated room) with a super efficient heat pump and not the rest of the house I m using 245 watts. And its not 3C but 10C outside. So its much easier. So even though its not that cold, I am using 10x as much as I am generating to warm one single room. And then we get 12 hours of almost no generation... Those are real figures right now. And remember this does not include the numerous fans, computers, fridge, central heating controls, garage chest freezer, lights, various Vs on standby, my laptop, power supplies for charging, numerous wall warts for phone, printer, modem, washing machines and oven etc.

Added its just gone up to a bit to 54 watts generated... Changes with the cloud level. So his figures seem somewhat unrealistic.

[Burgerman]

This video was just posted on the group...

A 1.4 million watt hour battery charged in 30 mins means you need 2.8 million watts. Actually chargers and batteries are not 100% efficient, so 90% charger and 98% cells means you need 12% more than 2.8 million watts. So 3.13 million watts...

You will need your own 3 megawatt power station. And cables about a foot thick. And a rather big charger! You would effectively be shorting out the national grid. Alternatively you will need a generator capable of 4197.39914 Horsepower continuous... So an 8000HP 3MW generator. If there is such a thing. Ad then your truck is really running on deisel. But it is running on fossil fuel no matter how you do it.

There was a video that was funny that I cant find now. A guy on a huge hotel construction site. Boss just delivered them a "green" digger to the construction site. The worker tests it and says its good. Boss says that the accountant got all sorts of taxpayer paid tax breaks because its green. So it was only 2x the cost of the usual diesel one. Then he complained that it takes oo long to charge after 3 hours use killed it. He walks with the camera along the charge cable to a truck sized diesel generator set. Running very loudly and puking smoke. And then explains that this is their site geneator as non of the big construction sites have AC power yet and that this is one of the last things that gets installed. Which was very funny. The boss still didnt get the hypocracy. He thought he was saving the planet. And the taxpayer subsidised this rediculousness.

[steves1977uk]

That's what I mean, the figures don't add up unless he has a field of solar panels. He's one of those people that says everything should run on electric (which most things does!). The thing he don't understand is how it's generated. He really thinks a country could run off grid via solar and wind farms, I'm like . Even I know it's not possible to do unless you have mass electric storage, which even then it wouldn't work in winter months when more is used. A small island maybe, with a few people. But not a country like the UK.

Steve