Help needed to fix Win11 disaster on Rachi's new computer

[LROBBINS]

Rachi's HP SPECTRE X360 14 OLED along with its WC mounting assembly was LOST on a flight from Orlando to JFK, and despite our telling Delta exactly where it was, they say they could not find it (pure BS). I have bought her a current version of the same model computer but it shipped with Win 11 Home, and that's a total disaster that I haven't been able to fix. I just sent the following to a friend of a friend in the U.S. who offered to help, but I really think I'm more likely to find useful information here:

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My daughter's two to five switch or gaze controlled multi-lingual voice output and PC control software is based on the WordPerfect word processor. The current version of her system runs under WP18 (a.k.a. WordPerfect X8) and includes a ca. 10,000 line PerfectScript 18 macro, a custom dll, the Allea Technologies gaze tracking system, and a variety of linked programs controlled via common object model (ex OLE), named pipes, and other means. (Note, from WP20 on, some core properties of PerfectScript were changed, and the newer versions of WP are unusable). WP-DOS is also unusable and the one linux version of WP ever issued never had PerfectScript. The attached poster presentation from 2008 (so rather out of date) can perhaps give you a clearer idea of what "VOCA for WordPerfect" is and does. I doubt if this can be run in an emulator.

The PC that was lost was running Win10 iotLTSC 2021, which I installed because that stability is absolutely needed. The new version of the same model computer (HP SPECTRE X360 14 OLED) came with Win11 Home which is a total disaster - its innumerable updates, pop up notifications, irrelevant apps, and link windows etc. will prevent her from speaking because she has no way to respond to them, nor should she have to. I have been trying to figure out how to put LTSC 2021 on this PC, but so far have completely failed. Using an image of the older PC doesn't work because much of the new hardware is then unrecognized - including the network adapter. Booting from an LTSC ISO has the same problem. Running LTSC setup from Win11 Home asks for a product key, and Win 11 no longer allows installing an unregistered copy, as it did with Win10. If I could install an unregistered copy, I then could register it using a hack - something I normally avoid, but Microsoft will not sell LTSC to a single user, even though this is a "medical" device that needs that level of stability.

I have bought an OEM Win11 Pro key, (since according to what Microsoft says, LTSC can be installed over Pro, but not over Home). I have, however, been unable to upgrade even to that and have just asked for help (or a refund) from Kinguin. It appears that I need to know the "Win11 home" Product Key, but I can find nothing on or in the computer or in my emails from HP with that key (even though HP documents say it is on a label under the computer - there's no label). If I could upgrade to Pro, even if I can't "downgrade" it to LTSC (Win 11 LTSC won't be released until 3rd quarter 2024), I could at least use tools like group policies to deactivate some of the Win 11 crap and perhaps have something my daughter can use.

I am very frustrated, and any help you can offer would be appreciated.

Sincerely,
Lenny Robbins
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[greybeard]

That's tough on you and your daughter, Lenny.
I know you are much more familiar with the inner workings of PCs etc, but if I was me, I would be inclined to wipe the HD to get rid of W11 Completely and try installing LTSC 2021 to the clean disk and then your copy of WP etc.
There are undoubtedly many reasons why this will not work but I would still try it if all else fails. Good luck.

[greybeard]

That's tough on you and your daughter, Lenny.
I know you are much more familiar with the inner workings of PCs etc, but if I was me, I would be inclined to wipe the HD to get rid of W11 Completely and try installing LTSC 2021 to the clean disk and then your copy of WP etc.
There are undoubtedly many reasons why this will not work but I would still try it if all else fails. Good luck.

[Burgerman]

I have put the 2021 version of win10 LTSC on literaly 30 different other peoples computers and never an issue.

I also copied a complete disk, that is with all 3 partitions, or just the first two, with my completely setup and configured and in use for years windows config with all software, all updates etc. To MANY computers including 4 different ones of my own.

I dont see why you cannot do the same. Windows doesent care abour hardware, it just loads a new set of basic drivers, then lets you update to the newest ones as you see fit for anything not recognised.

I even use this SAME disc clone on all of my computers. After a quick 5 minute change of a couple of drivers and uninstalling some specific dell software it works just fine on a different platform with AMD instead of intel.

So a question.
Do you have a backup of the missing windows 10 disk?
What appens when you try to use it to boot from?
I can even do that with a USB NVMe removable. Works perfectly.

Obviously youmay need to configure the bios accordingly. It is bios, or UEFI - if the disk you cloned is using bios and the new machine is using UEFI you may need to swap a few settings. And enable legacy boot etc.

You do not want to install 11.

[LROBBINS]

Of course I don't want Windows 11, but the machine arrived with an OEM installation of Windows 11 Home and it is locked down in a way I've never seen before! I acn overwrite the disc with the iotLTSC 2021, or with the image of Rachi's lost HP, but device manager does not see ANY of the newer peripheral hardware: audio, network adapter, touch pad, pen, touch screen etc. Not just out of date drivers, but not seen at all. It also does some other very annoying things, even when running with the original Win 11 Home. For example, if you have plugged in a USB disc, turn off the computer, unplug the disc and now run Clonezilla, it will say that the disc is still mounted. The only reliable way to get Win 11 Home to un-mount the disc is to expell it before turning off the computer. What were they thinking of?

Another one. The Windows it came with is in Italian, but the HP diagnostic applications are in English and when something doesn't work it gives the fault in English. That's OK, but when I go back to try to find EventLog I don't know what that's called in Italian. So, I installed the English language pack and reset Windows to English. Jokes on me. About half of Windows generated text is now in English, and the other half is still in Italian. What were they thinking of?

[woodygb]

Have you tried Keyfinder?
https://www.magicaljellybean.com/keyfinder/

OR

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/fi ... oduct-key/

[Burgerman]

device manager does not see ANY of the newer peripheral hardware: audio, network adapter, touch pad, pen, touch screen etc. Not just out of date drivers, but not seen at all.

I WOULD have said that is not possible!

In device manager, choose "show hidden hardware" and choose remove for every item. Reboot, now what does it show?

[martin007]

Remove the hard drive or SSD and format it on another PC.
It then performs the installation on another PC and then moves the drive to its original location.

[LROBBINS]

John,

Removing all hidden items makes no difference (and I have to use an old mouse because the touch pad and pen aren't recognized). I even tried installing Win 11 Pro from the iso and exactly the same thing happens. I probably could install it from the "update" scheme within Windows, but for that I need to know the product key for the OS that's in the machine. HP says that the key is on a sticker under the PC, but there's no sticker under the PC. I'll pester HP about that later this week. With that I might even be able to install LTSC from within Windows rather than from the iso.

This is now the Permobil (or Pride) of operating systems.

[LROBBINS]

Martin,

If the SSD were easily removable, I'd do that, but even getting into the case is risky on this ultralight.

[Burgerman]

I dont think its the operationg system. I think its some bios setting or something very weird about that laptops hardware.

What happens if you clone your backup to the laptop. Then manually install all the drivers from HP?
Or use my 54GB of drivers from the univeral driver installer Snappy Driver Installer...?

[LROBBINS]

What happens if you clone your backup to the laptop. Then manually install all the drivers from HP?

Hard to install a driver when the device that needs to be driven isn't even detected (even if I could get to HP, given that the network adapter is among the devices that doesn't "exist").

Or use my 54GB of drivers from the univeral driver installer Snappy Driver Installer...?

That might help. In the meantime, Mike Stewart has suggested a way to find the installed product key, so later today I'll try to get that. I'll also do some searching at the HP site using another computer. If I have that, I can use the within-Windows installation tool to load LTSC or, if necessary, first Win 11 Pro and then LTSC.

[Burgerman]

On my dell computers many other devices (fingerprint vault, various GPS and sim card LTE modem device etc are "missing" untill I run 4 or 5 DELL executable driver installers. Then a load of "missing" devices suddenly appear. I think it requires dell specific chipset drivers before a lot of internal USB connected or PCI connected devices become visible.

So install your cloned win ltsc. Dont mess with serials or other numbers. Use the MAS 1.7 or higher. Then it will be permanantly activated IoT verson.
Then download all the drivers from HP. Via a different machine.
Run them.

As you do you will find your missing devices appear once you run some chipset or other installation EXE files.

Similar with my Dark Hero motherboard. Many periferal devices do not show up until I run the motherboard manufacturers driver package. It enables a lot of weird and wonderful AMD and other chipset connectivity. So for e.g the USB 3.2 connected devices are all missing initially in device manager.

[martin007]

I dont think its the operationg system. I think its some bios setting or something very weird about that laptops hardware.

What happens if you clone your backup to the laptop. Then manually install all the drivers from HP?
Or use my 54GB of drivers from the univeral driver installer Snappy Driver Installer...?

What you say makes a lot of sense...

[LROBBINS]

Making progress.

I went to the HP site and looked for driver downloads for this serial number PC. They offer ONLY drivers specified for Win11, but given that the Win10 code base is basically the same, I downloaded all of them on my PC and put them in a folder in a USB drive. They are exe installers and do not include everything, but most of the essential ones except touchpad, pen and touch screen.

I loaded my iotLTSC image which opens with the "unrecognized most everything" problem. I then installed all of the HP drivers. I now have network driver, camera driver, bios update, firmware, etc. I'm now making an image of the LTSC system before I go to e.g. Symantics to find the touchpad driver. One this image is done, I'll reload the image of Win11 Home and see if there are drivers in the same folder where the HP download executibles get installed. If I'm lucky, I'll find the missing ones there without having to spend too much time searching mfrs download sites.

[Burgerman]

I have an EASY solution to grab all the drivers from your windows 11 machine. And to delete GBs of unwanted drivers from the driverstore in windows.

The driverstore is here:

windows\system32\DriverStore\ all in here!

Heres a bit of software that makes this stuff easy.

Make a folder anywhere, like the desktop. Or in your PROGRAM FILES folder.
Call it DRIVER STORE VIEWER.
Put the contents of this zip into it. Feel free to make a shortcut. And elevated permisions (run as admin).

Its a very useful standalone program that allows you to see every driver that resides on a PC. Both in use and unused. And to automatically delete the unused ones or old ones. Saving GB of space. It also allows you to save all the drivers to a folder you choose. To transfer to your LTSC machine...

[Burgerman]

Its super simple.
Gives the info you need.
Allows you to take control of drivers and get rid of years worth of junk.
Or to export all.

Screenshot? Its only got 1 page!

[Burgerman]

Then after you COPY these saved drivers to your LTSC machine, reopen this program on THAT machine and it lets you install the needed drivers in LTSC... See screenshot

[Burgerman]

This if you read the last 3 or 4 posts carefully it will allow you to use you already configured ltsc bakup and all the windows 11 drivers from the initial configuration.

Really you should use the free version of macrium for backups too. Its much better! Can upload a copy, and the MAS 1.7 windows and office crack file too.

[Burgerman]

Rachi's HP SPECTRE X360 14 OLED along with its WC mounting assembly was LOST on a flight from Orlando to JFK, and despite our telling Delta exactly where it was, they say they could not find it (pure BS). I have bought her a current version of the same model computer but it shipped with Win 11 Home, and that's a total disaster that I haven't been able to fix.

You cannot fix 11.

Windows 7 ws the last pure operating system that was just an operating system. 8, 10 and now 11 were ever more cynical efforts to sell microsofts services, apps, push people into using their "store", the cloud, office and games as a service £££ rental, use and force people into "logging into" microsoft account with all its data mining, add endlesss search links from bing and via their own crap browser they force on you that nobody wants (more data mining, adds, forces you to use icrosoft accounts etc). Ever worse money making schemes.

Windows 10 LTSC removes most of that nonsense. There are ways to get rid of the rest. LTSC IoT also keeps a decade of updating security and no new "features" that are really extra money making junk.

Soon there will be a Windows 11 LTSC (end of next year) but I doubt it will be as good as 10 LTSC is. So I will be sticking with it. I have tried to fix 11. Its not really possible it makes me pull my hair out. Whatever you do it has a load of crap running in the background and keeps of trying to trick or force you to do MS stuff.

____________________

The above info and program will almost definitely sort out your laptops problems though.

But I have to ask. How is it even possible that they could lose such a thing? It defies belief. Esp as its obviously so important to her and part f her chair. Theft? Or pure incompetance?
Compensation that actually covers all the work as well as the cost of components is forthcoming hopefully?

[LROBBINS]

Looks as though the devices that are "missing" in device manager is not for lack of the proper driver. Those devices are listed among hidden devices, but ---

Note: asking the OS to update the driver just tells me that the latest driver is already installed (and that's what Driver Store Viewer also shows. I have no idea how Win10 finds devices, but it isn't finding the hardware that IS there.

But I have to ask. How is it even possible that they could lose such a thing? It defies belief. Esp as its obviously so important to her and part f her chair. Theft? Or pure incompetance?

Was not on her chair, but in overhead compartment with its attached stainless steel mounting bar. We had informed the crew on our next flight that it had not made it out of the plane, and filed a claim as soon as we could (after going JFK to Amsterdam to Firenze - so many hours later). Delta says they looked for 60 days and couldn't find it.

Compensation that actually covers all the work as well as the cost of components is forthcoming hopefully?

Fat chance. Delta says they have no responsibility for non checked baggage, but I am still contesting that as the Air Carrier Access Act does say that they must provide us with assistance (they didn't) and that they do have responsibility for medical devices and I don't see how the non checked baggage policy trumps that. This was only one of multiple problems on this trip from hell - I have filed 13 complaints with Delta with copies to the FAA, but I got only one email from Delta with entirely irrelevant information.

[biscuit]

Delta says they looked for 60 days and couldn't find it.

[Burgerman]

Check that legacy bios is enabled and all the security that win 11 devices have to have is off.

Disable secure boot, any encryption, all the cpu and memory direct access options, virtual machine stuff, the TPS chip disabled, etc etc. Enable/disable UEFI etc, too. See what works. Esp that TPM 2.0 thing.

Before that open an elevated command prompt.
Run this:
DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /RestoreHealth

Then run SFC /scannow

Better still run this:
As ADMIN
(RIGHT CLICK CHOOSE RUN AS ADMIN)

[expresso]

sorry to hear about this Lenny - i am not surprised though - they dont care - now its up to you to fight them

i know some users who did get new chairs from there experiences - they had to first make a complaint file it right then and there when it happen - usually when you get to your destination - you find out your screwed when they bring you the chair broken - best chances to recover the looses - etc, is make a huge issues right then and there - file all the complaints etc, - can take hours - those are the best chances to get a result -

heres a user - they insisted to wrap his chair for protection - thats a joke they charged the user for the wrap and wrapping - chair arrived broken - now what would you do if it didn't work at all - in another country that couldn't care less either for wheelchair users

they sit you in a chair to push you down the plane - user almost fell off a few times being pushed - if not for his Mom and Aid with him -

[Burgerman]

Best advice AVOID flying with powerchairs. It seems to end badly over and over.

In the case of rachi she has a extremely bright caring dad to deal with the problems. And thats great. Still a real pain but can be dealt with.

What woud happen if her parents were like most of societies normals?
What happens if say I fly alone. Then get to some alien destination and my chair is broken or missing or whatever. It HAS to work. I would get sores, have contenence issues, and be unable to deal with any of that and would be unable to fix the chair from a wheelchair. Then what?

All seems pretty crap idea flying! It shouldnt. But realistically they dont employ rocket scientists to load bags on a plane. And I find that almost every person I deal with is completely useless. And those are the ones that WANT to help!

[Burgerman]

Lenny you have some chipset or usb driver missing that allows it to see these other devices I think.
Or its NOT seeing them because the drivers that are there are for other different hardware. Hence hidden becayse they really are not there.

[LROBBINS]

No, the chipset and USB drivers were updated from HP packages, and that's when these devices appeared as "hidden". Before that they were simply missing. I have no idea how windows enumerates the hardware nor where it stores that information - perhaps in the registry, but I'll not go there unless and until I can figure out what would have to be moved from the registry for Win11 (which does recognise all of the new hardware) into the registry for the W10 LTSC installation (which doesn't).

I'll also look through group policies to see if something is set there that's blocking things.

I really agree with you that there's no way to "tame" Win 11 so that it doesn't "gag" Rachi; it even took rather a bit of fussing with Win10 LTSC.

[Burgerman]

You must have installed the wrong ones.

Read this carefully!
I use the same disk image across 5 different laptops and PCs.

So for e.g it has many different sets of hardware. I installed the AMD motherboard and chipset drivers, on my desktop PC. it totals around 35 drivers for my AMD based water cooled desktop PC. This same disk image in also on the laptop I am using here. This is intel based. All the intel drivers are also installed. So that the AMD drivers apper as hidden drivers on this laptop.

The opposite is also true. On my AMD desktop PC, all the intel drivers are now "hidden" because while they exist and are ready to load the hardware is missing. So they are "hidden" until the hardware is seen. This can happen if you install incorrect drivers too. Because then the hardware it expects isnt there!

Its actually much worse in my case. Because there are 4 different sets of hardware. 4 totally different sets of PCs (5 sets if yu include 2 alost identical laptops with a few minor differences) and drivers for each and all the devices exsist on the system. Most are "hidden" And this disk image just works on all of these different PCs. I did this on purpose to have a single disk image with every possible thing up to date, fine tuned etc that I can deploy across all my different PC based machines.

ALL the hardware for all these machines simply appear as "hidden" devices in device damager. Because the hardware doesent exist on most of these machines at once.

What you did was to install some drivers for devices, for a machine that has different hardware to the drivers you have installed. So they are "hidden" awaiting to see that hardware!
You must go back and find the exact correct drivers for your laptop. You *must* have the incorrect ones for them to appear "missing".
If you cannot find them, Theres another way.

Now... Easy way to fix. Hopefully. Works for me!
The Driver View software I uploaded, allows you to take all the drivers from your Win11 initial disk while its running, and to export them all to a folder. Copy that folder to your LTSC machine when that disk image that is loaded. Your fully set up LTSC. Then install ALL of them from the folder.
Did you do this?
That should work unless those drivers will not install on 10. I would find that hard to believe. But it "possible".

[steves1977uk]

Lenny, I managed to find Win10 drivers for Rachi's laptop, they're here... https://support.hp.com/us-en/drivers/se ... 0/35698516

Hopefully that will get LTSC2021 running for you.

Steve

[LROBBINS]

Those are the drivers for the older model of the SPECTRE X360 (with 11th gen i7). Whether they will work in the environment of the current (gen 13 i7 & other hardware differences) model I don't know, but I can give them a try.