Vegetarianism

[Burgerman]

I am on a mission to cure it.

I intend giving bacon flavour air fresheners to all vegetarians I meet.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Accoutrements-1 ... B0095UVKRI

(c) topgear

[Mark]

Two quotes I like:

"I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to become a vegetarian"

and (on being offered a salad) ....
"This ain't food! This is what real food eats!"

I should add that I don't like eating anything really.

[Mark]

" I feel uncomfortable in the countryside. It seems to be a place where animals wander around basically uncooked"

[s7even]

I've become almost vegan this year. I say almost because I still eat honey and I don't wear underpants made from hemp.

The thing is yeah meat tastes good. I loved eating a Rare steak. However, "it tastes good" isn't justifying what is a pretty miserable existence for the animals.

So dairy, seafood, and meat.
I don't eat.
I miss cheese.

[Burgerman]

I've become almost vegan this year. I say almost because I still eat honey and I don't wear underpants made from hemp.

But you can smoke those underpants!

You can be cured. Send me your address and I will post the bacon air freshener.

[calabash]

What bugs me is that people I know that will have a dinner party will cook veggie food for those that do not eat meat, but the otherway round? No, go to them for dinner and you get NO meat, now how is that fair!

I remember on our local radio the fella asked the girl (two presenters) If you were going out with a veggie would you choose it if you went out for dinnner? Guess what, she said yes? What about if it was the other way round,,,,,, not on your life!

If they are veggies and want to come to dinner I would just take off the meat and give a couple more potatoes, more for me. Lucky we do not know any that want to come to dinner.

Give me a lump of meat any day of the week, my mouth used to water when ever I drove past lambs in the spring, just saw a rack of chops.Cannot drive now so they are safe!

Love the idea of a bacon air freshner.

[s7even]

yes well I say "Sorry you'll have to take the coffee black 'cause there is no milk 'ere."
I have alright coffee though. Azera. it's almost as good as fresh ground but less fuss.

I cant be cured see the main catalyst was: That red stuff in a lovely rare steak isn't blood. The meat is hung for 28 days so the blood runs out.
what that redstuff is is water+some protein.

So what's the point in eating it then?

If I was an American Indian in before the 19c sure I'd eat buffalo.

but a piece of fetid flesh full of hormones and antibiotics? Nah I'll pass.

+the cruelty bit of industrialised farming that sort of matters too. Though I had no problem sleeping before. I feel better though it's a morally justifiable position!

damn right youll get no meat here. If I liked you I'd take you to either a vegan sushi place or this really awesome vegan place called 222veggievegan in london.

[Sully]

s7even,

You are assuming many things that are not entirely true for 100% of food animal existence.
Quote; "The thing is yeah meat tastes good. I loved eating a Rare steak. However, "it tastes good" isn't justifying what is a pretty miserable existence for the animals".

I owned a dairy farm and raised other critters for our own table, they did have a relatively carefree existence. yes during the cold winter months they were confined much of the time. They did not have to search for food or watch out for predators, and we did have predators. Death by predators is not a kind or swift death, contrary to common belief. Dairy cows live a as close as possible a stressless life. Stressed cows do not produce milk in the quantities necessary for a successful dairy farm. Animals left to their own devices are brutal to each other, some isolation such as in the grazing areas (feed boxes) is necessary. But most veggies do not accept nature as it is, just those imaginary Bambi stories.

Believe it or not, I could call my cattle by "NAME" and they would come, individually most times, (not with the herd). Do you suppose they would do this because they saw me as an antagonist to their existence ? I always talked to my critters especially the cows, I believe they understood even if it was simply the tone of my voice while talking to them. In winter I had a radio to play music while they spent long winter nights in the barn. And when death came as is inevitable for all beings, it is done as swift and as merciful as possible. If you have ever been traumatically wounded, the immediate damage is for the most part painless, you have no clue what occurred. What is brutally painful is the recovery or life after a brutal trauma. Such as many of us have every minute of our lives after such a trauma.

So A bullet to the brain, or a kill gun is actually painless. The animals head is swiftly pulled into a stationary position and the blow is struck. It takes far less time for this to occur, than it takes for you to read these words. They are bled out before any opportunity of consiousness can occur, and the deed is done. Not that this in any way exempts the muslim killers, but a swift swipe with a very sharp knife is nearly as painless as the slaughter of animals, except for the mental stress of actually knowing what is about to occur. When the blood flow to the brain is stopped, consious thought ceases, and with that pain. Milliseconds and gone.

I have actually had to cut my hand to remove an accidently placed large bent fishing hook, slicing my own flesh was done swiftly, and nearly painless. I did that and went to work that morning. I was struck by a dead and falling tree and a limb was driven through my thigh. It mushed on the back side in the skin. I was lucky (?) it didn't hit that huge artery in my thigh. But I did suffer a pulminary embolism from that wound a week later after the limb was long removed. I walked out of the woods alone, down the side of a small mountain, to get help. That was trauma and actually painless just a stunning blow. So yes I do know that in many and most occurances instant trauma is painless.

From those experiences and knowlege I can accept the way we kill our food animals, they do not suffer a painful death, do not lie to, or mislead yourself or others.

However, if we were not to use meat of fish or animals as food, there would e no reason for them to continue to exist, or for farmers and other humans to participate in animal husbandry. They would just be gone. Is that what you want?

[s7even]

hi sully I'm not here to argue, judge or mislead.

However, I will say this: Cows only produce milk if they are/were pregnant so where does the baby cow go?

Does anything that's alive want to die? When time's up I guess you're ready but I don't think a male calf is ready to die in a few weeks after birth.

Of course cows are intelligent. Just because humans are weird and have all these constructs that are actually meaningless in the scheme of things: (law, society, economics, technology, etc) it makes us no more or less sentient than any other animal. You're right about the not existence part but that is also because we humans have destroyed natural habitat. So it's just 7 billion apes where there was once an whole load of different animals knocking about in their own ecosystems. Anyway I don't know why you said that about cows so I said that haha.

If you think as I do where all animals are equal and that there is no God it's hard to justify any of this nonsense we humans do.

Lets not go down this rabbit hole. I don't eat meat or drink dairy. It's healthy, pretty tasty, and it's kind of nice knowing you aren't drinking 50% cow mucus or causing death.

If you disagree then that's because your wrong

[Sully]

s7even,

Quote; "If you disagree then that's because your wrong" !

Yes, you are !

I assume then you are willing to give up your spot in this jungle, as well as any progeny you might leave behind. Well do so, don't let me sit in your way. You nor a ton of those who think like you can return this planet back to the cinder it was in the beginning. It is what it is. The human race with all its shortcomings; is all there is. We have our moments on this planet, when those run out are done we are finished, I believe there is nothing else, the marks you make because of your existence will be left behind however. If you make good marks you will likely be remembered kindly if not --- well not so much. If you leave no progeny behind and a sour observation of your "kind" that will be your rememberance, I think you get the idea. Cows or any of the rest of the animal world, do not have such memories or those to remember them.

It is our fate to use the wits we have and the elements at hand to continue our kind, we are not the apes of the forest, we are many steps beyond them, the selective process has been at work. Someplace you have chosen to forget or eliminate a chapter in the process. We are omnivoires and nothing more when humans decided to find the proteins our brain needed to progress in fish and animal flesh, the brain and mind functions made a giant leap beyond the Great Apes, who do eat a very limited amount of animal flesh as well. For whatever reason they didn't find the same nourishment from this. Could that have something to do with DNA?

Quote; "Cows only produce milk if they are/were pregnant so where does the baby cow go"?

WELl; Cows have pretty much equal offspring over a lifetime, so I did breed for milk production capabilitie from my heifers. The males (bull calves) were either; castrated and kept or sold as steers, I also raised and trained several pairs of oxen, (Castrated bull calfs) that replaced skidders in the woods using ecologically better timber harvesting procedures. I did raise several veals for myself, the market is not so great for that kind of meat. Dairy cows when they outlive their usefulness are allowed to flesh out again and make "IN my humble opinion" the best of beef. There is just so much you do not know, and seem not to wish to learn. Cows loose many pounds of flesh while their body makes milk. Between birth and loss of production a time span of about 10 months, they come in heat and are bred back, (nature and how it works) I looked to these calves as my future and raised all the heifers and as I am explaining what I did with the "babies" especially the bull calves> When they "freshin" have their calf, they start the milking process again about 13 months after the "first calf" In that period they gain back their body weight.

As a BTW If a farmer is very good at training oxen the value of that kind of critter is/was better than the value of a 1st calf heifer. (They are priced as the highest priced form of dairy cow) I was pretty good at it, all it takes is patience they are sensitive beasts, and respond well to loving care. I also happened to live in a mountainous and ecologically sensitive area.

Good oxen were in demand, they can be trained to the point they replace a man in the woods, as well as prevent the destruction of mechanized wheeled equipment. They learn the travel paths, and can either bring a load down alone to the landing and will return to the up hill starting point when told to do so, and will stand until you whistle to get them where you want. I learned to use a whistle technique from a logger who had, had throat cancer, and had little voice. He used whistle commands with his oxen. The peace and independence of working in the woods with only the sounds of the chain saw which is not continuous, and some whistles is amazing.

[s7even]

yes I meant you're.

Today is a new day. Today I changed my mind. Kind of. I'm still going to avoid dairy and continue buying dairy free chocolate and chocolate soya milk. I don't plan to eat meat but if I do order a chateaubriand when I'm eating out. That's ok. I like eating more veg.

I appreciate you farmed responsibly. But the industrialisation of farming is not good for animal welfare.
When I buy meat - which will be rare - it'll be high welfare.

So now I'm wrong too.

[Sully]

I agree with your sentiments about what we perceive as Industrial Farming. Managers do have a lot to say about their operations, No dairy cow will produce milk if they are stressed. They just start to shut themselves down. A dairy farm manager who cannot or fails to optimize their production with a given number of cows will lose their job in short order. Any employee causing distress to a dairy cow will soon be on the road as well. Just good business, plain and simple.

I was pretty much old school, it suited me and was a great way to raise children. They probably will never work as hard ever again in their lives, and they all studied as hard as possible during their school years.

[s7even]

The big thing is cheese. It's the only dairy product I need.
Ice cream alternatives are good, soya alternatives are good, coconut cream on pies is good.

The thing is humans shouldn't drink milk. The only reason we can now is because someone did way back when. It's for baby cows so they can grow into big cows. Why people want to consume that is beyond me. Some people don't even have the enzyme to digest it.

Stick it in a warehouse, forget about it for a bit. Let a billion microorganisms live, eat, defecate, and die. Then eat what's there. It's weird. It tastes good though. Weird.

[Sully]

I and my children were raised on Raw Un-pasruerized milk, None were any the worse for it. Yes some folks cannot digest milk and some cannot digest to the point of being poisonous to them some grains and part of them, as well as Legumes like peanuts, so yours is really not a valid arguement as it applies to all humanity. Not every human woman can nuture their young with their own breast milk either, and is one reason humans use Cows milk. In other parts of the world many humans use the milk from horses as well a goats and some sheep. While I am sure you are very pleased with your arguement, it is not universally valid. Animal milk is a convenience and a saver of human lives in many places throught the world.

The by products that are taste delights and truly delicious are just byproducts of over production, availability, and human genius. And to boot there are many commercial byproducts that are derived from some of the components of cows milk. Humans did feed themselves as vegetarians back in the hunter gatherer period of human history. But it was actually not nutricious enough during that period to develop the human brain enough for humans to talk and walk upright or gain weight & size enough to endure a modern lifestyle. The inability to rapidly heal the bones in humans has been observed in vegitarians. Something you might consider before swallowing all this veggie propaganda. You're already loosing ground, and you have barely started.