BREXIT

[Sully]

LC I think you are misguided. Libertarian Candidates have never gained a foot hold in the USA. You are also quite mistaken that the "Bill of Rights" of our Constitution has become obsolete. It is the guide used by many Nations and has world wide influence in formulating many Democracies.

Now it is true any of the written words can be ignored, by a Demagogue or belligerent want to be Dictator, but that would be at their risk, most Nations who have done this have failed and been replaced. Honesty and equality in government creates longevity of any government. However, often these traits are mocked, do work.

LC you use words like "interventionism" The common laws of Great Britain are far more interventionist than any such laws in the USA. So much so, that many Americans "think" we have gone too far with the give away, and perhaps we have. These are the very things you Brits are revolting against.

The opinion you cut and pasted, is also in my opinion misguided. Fascist like propaganda, full of twisted half truths.

[Lord Chatterley]

LC I think you are misguided. Libertarian Candidates have never gained a foot hold in the USA. You are also quite mistaken that the "Bill of Rights" of our Constitution has become obsolete. It is the guide used by many Nations and has world wide influence in formulating many Democracies.

Now it is true any of the written words can be ignored, by a Demagogue or belligerent want to be Dictator, but that would be at their risk, most Nations who have done this have failed and been replaced. Honesty and equality in government creates longevity of any government. However, often these traits are mocked, do work.

LC you use words like "interventionism" The common laws of Great Britain are far more interventionist than any such laws in the USA. So much so, that many Americans "think" we have gone too far with the give away, and perhaps we have. These are the very things you Brits are revolting against.

The opinion you cut and pasted, is also in my opinion misguided. Fascist like propaganda, full of twisted half truths.

I said your written constitution was the basis of many European states prior to WW2 but the only European state not succumb to totalitarianism was the only European state without a written constitution.

Give me an example of a half-truth by Chris Tame that wasn't previously uttered by Tom Paine or mentioned in the Federalist Papers?

By the way, how is the First Amendment getting along lately?

Has it protected DJ's who have used a naughty word on air or made an Islamophobic joke, or anyone who has made an Islamophobic movie, or is a climate change denier, or who has published a pro-American history book?

How's civil forfeiture getting along, or prohibition, or land seizure, or income tax, or ID cards, or waterboarding, or plea bargaining, or general warrants?

Do tell, because I would love to hear how those magic words are going to work when and if we get one - especially when you have had a President who doesn't know what the meaning word is is, let alone a constitution.

LC

[Sully]

Actually the First Amendment while always under attack is doing quite well. The Federalist Papers are not the Constitution and Thomas Paine while his words are influential are not those of the Constitution, or Court approved Law.

Sure there are politicians who would often like to avoid parts of the Constitution it is pretty enduring and pesky.

[Lord Chatterley]

Thomas Paine said a country's constitution was, ultimately, its people - and he was right.

How much right to free speech did Trump get exercise in Chicago? About the same as Milo in Berkeley - ZERO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=025HRyYRgFs

LC

[Lord Chatterley]

MMA Jake Shields saved the perps from a murder charge too-

http://www.breitbart.com/california/2017/02/02/exclusive-mma-fighter-jake-shields-saved-man-berkeley-violent-rioters/

LC

[Sully]

Since you have no idea of what a National Constitution is, it becomes a life long teaching chore to teach you. You will not be held for trial by state courts for speaking your mind. Bad language over the airways violates the licensing of the company using the public airways, employment by such companies comes with the contractual agreement that you will not violate the conditions of that license. So Constitutionally you can say what you want, but that speech may have civil or personal consequences.

Every right is contested every day somewhere in the US. Just as it is in your country. There are always those who stretch, twist, or do what ever they can do to get away with what ever nefarious deed the think will profit themselves. A constitution is like the lock on your door, it only keeps the honest people, honest. It interferes with the dishonest, but does not stop them. It takes the resolution of the majority of the Nation in question, to operate within its confines. Specifically the people in government from top to bottom.

[Lord Chatterley]

Since you have no idea of what a National Constitution is, it becomes a life long teaching chore to teach you. You will not be held for trial by state courts for speaking your mind. Bad language over the airways violates the licensing of the company using the public airways, employment by such companies comes with the contractual agreement that you will not violate the conditions of that license. So Constitutionally you can say what you want, but that speech may have civil or personal consequences.

Every right is contested every day somewhere in the US. Just as it is in your country. There are always those who stretch, twist, or do what ever they can do to get away with what ever nefarious deed the think will profit themselves. A constitution is like the lock on your door, it only keeps the honest people, honest. It interferes with the dishonest, but does not stop them. It takes the resolution of the majority of the Nation in question, to operate within its confines. Specifically the people in government from top to bottom.

I know that you persist in conflating two entirely different ideas - state powers and state rights, for example. That is because you have no idea what a right is or where they come from.

The problem with that is this - if you not very careful you end up congratulating yourself - as Chris Tame points out - for a right written on paper whose substance is either amended out of existence or adopted and applied in such an absurd and illogical manner that you never get to experience any actual rights in real life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HriBHHWYYU

LC

[Lord Chatterley]

Told you so:

https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status ... 8428108800

LC

[Burgerman]

A year on and we are still being told that the vote leave people were told a lie and we didn't know it meant coming out of the single market, that it may hurt the economy, and for a decade there would be a mess etc. And that we were all misinformed, lied to, etc.

E.g. T. Blairs recent proposed new referendum (and maybe another dozen till it goes his way), because the losing side still cannot accept they lost!

Theres no soft/part/partial BREXIT. And if there is thats NOT what we voted for.
Theres just Brexit, where you leave the golf club, stop paying membership, get your coat and go home.

Or theres some imagined ridiculous kind of "half/ soft/part Brexit. And god knows how the hell thats supposed to work! You leave the club and don't obey the rules, pay no membership, but still want access to the bar and the green and the little battery cars etc. Thats both not possible and its NOT WHAT WE VOTED FOR! It is however embarrassing for the UK that some whiners are even proposing it.

Well we were in fact very WELL informed. Since the government sent out a biased pro EU propaganda form, to every single last household (using our tax money illegally) telling us EXACTLY THIS in detail and explained what it all meant before the vote!!!

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BREXIT.pdf

[Lord Chatterley]

Pat Condell on Brexit and the anti-Trumpeteers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdG57lgHFaA

LC

[Burgerman]

110% my views.

[Gnomatic]

I'm on the other side of the pond. I've seen this guy's vid's before and agree with him on most things.

However, here in the states, it's pretty easy not being happy with a disgrace like Trump as POTUS. I understand the political wave he rode to win the office, but he's still a buffoon regardless. And he did not win a majority of the vote. BREXIT did.

The EU is/was structurally flawed from its inception.

[Burgerman]

Well the BBC and most media/politicians/hosts/everything is still pushing the same old pro immigration, pro EU, pro multiculturalism, pro freedom of religion/gay/lesbian/black/muslim/everyone equal bullshit here. Everything to do with brexit is framed in a negative way. Every question/every statement/every news article. Its like: We know we have to do it, but its all a terrible mistake. Makes me sick. I have applied for planning permission to install a large Union Jack flag/pole in my garden.

[Sully]

Gnomatic; I agree with the premise that the EU is/was flawed from the beginning. There was a consensus the Europeans wanted some sort of strength of unity marriage of the individual Nation/States not only for trade basis but for each their individual security on a united joint military basis. And a universal monetary system. The problem was there was no consensus exactly how to accomplish all this to a mutual satisfaction of all the States.

It is always simple to create disunity in a small Nation/State, it is just harder to do it to a large state, but not impossible. In any mutual agreement to create a common Union/ the agreement has to come first. When the legal and physical structure has been agreed upon by a vote of each member nation/state, by their constituents, only then can this union become one United European State! This was never done, there is a document laid out BUT this document was never agreed upon by the Nation States. Great Britain never acceded to the new money to be used by believe united European Nation, another huge stumbling block to building one Unified Nation. They all pretty much just ignored it with no serious agreement. (Read the Preamble to the US Constitution) The whole way the EU is structured is/was a cluster F, There are a lot of great idea's in the proposed EU Constitution.

I once was a part of a committee writing a constitution of aa SIMPLE Not for Profit Fishing club. There were about 12 members chosen to accomplish this task, everyone trying to make a great club that charged some pretty reasonable dues ($25) Per Year. WE agreed to do this without remuneration, being a State wide Club the meetings were located far from many of this dozen people's homes, it was pretty hard to get there for some. This process took a very long time almost a year, with 2 a month meetings. NOW THIS WAS JUST A FISHING CLUB !!!! Just think what it takes to create a mutually agreeable document for multiple Nations !!!! It is just so complex. BUT this must be the first step, it cannot be set aside,or you get what Europe has now. Immigrant refugee's running about everywhere.

Unfortunately it is somewhat human nature that we change our surroundings to what we are accustomed. We move about our planet seeking a better situation than we presently have, Refugees are even more desperate to do this it seems. The USA is not immune to such things. Larger cities have a convergence of these ethnic neighborhoods. and then an eventual natural scattering of these enclaves.

Laws that must comply with a Common agreed upon Constitution help long term with some oppressive customs and non-constitutionally compliant laws/rules brought with new immigrants or refugees are more easily defeated with an agreed upon common Constitution, than without. One common referee (Supreme Court) with good Constitutional guide lines is the only way to resolve such issues. This is quite time consuming, nothing happens legally with any real speed.
==============================================================

LC you use some of the constitutional half assed Constitutions of smaller nations which were circumvented by some politicians. Yes the majorities Germany in the 1930 's made Hitler and his group of followers was permitted unbridled leadership because of the populace let that happen. You're right when you quote "Thomas Paine when he said a country's constitution was, ultimately, its people - and he was right". The protective laws only lend legitimacy to the protest of what are illegally set rules. They cannot physically protect you when an unfriendly government or official retaliates against a person.

HOWEVER, "How much right to free speech did Trump get exercise in Chicago? About the same as Milo in Berkeley - ZERO". >>> There is/was no government intervention in Candidate's rally's He spoke as he wished, and still does. He was not jailed for speaking what little of his mind he had. His audience had the same rights, but Candidate Trump's associates shushed them promptly. In fact Candidate Trump could have been charged with inciting a riot by announcing from the podium to request his friendly crowd cause bodily harm to his detractor's. So Candidate Trump was not without any fault in Chicago, but was this a constitutional violation??? NO NO NO.

[Burgerman]

Gnomatic; I agree with the premise that the EU is/was flawed from the beginning. There was a consensus the Europeans wanted some sort of strength of unity marriage of the individual Nation/States not only for trade basis but for each their individual security on a united joint military basis. And a universal monetary system. The problem was there was no consensus exactly how to accomplish all this to a mutual satisfaction of all the States.

No it was sold to all the member states in the beginning as a free trade area. Called the EEC for European Economic Community. But all the communistic/leftist/liberal/elitist/political all knew damned well that they really wanted to united states of Europe. So they (the non elected bureaucrats) that nobody has heard of, gradually crept in more and more eu "power' and centralization to achieve this goal. Non of the countries people wanted this. Many of the governments didn't want it either... But bit by bit, treaty after treaty, vote after ignored vote, we got it anyway. The result of which is the backlash we have today.

[Sully]

John this was big conversation in the very late 1959" and early 1960's back then the drift of every conversation was a "United States of Europe" However, the French did put the kibosh on this when they chose to reelect De Gaulle President again. So it is entirely your prerogative as a European Nation to revolt from this disorganized structure. Now since there is no coordinated effort of Nations, refugee's just as occurred after WW2 --in 1945/6 it took many years to calm that down. Now the river of humanity is moving again. Where is the organization for stopping or rectifying this flow going to come from? Sure the tide has slowed, but will that keep? Or is it simply temporary? Men and women, teens and adults will flee the slaughter as best they can, that is just a natural thing, no one will willingly stay within those dangerous area.

Great Britain has some very natural barriers for its borders, most of the Nation States Europe does not. The will quietly struggle with this refugee problem for many years. So will GB but not with such difficulty. That is only one but not the only one of the problems an acceptable Union can help, that's gone.

The EU was done wrong, personal greed and power killed it.

[Burgerman]

Refugees, genuine ones, are quite few, and will or should go back when safe. What we actually get in, is millions of fighting age men, economic migrants, with a load of extreme Muslims and other problem people from poor parts of africa etc instead. Wher life is cheap, rules are ignored, rape, murder, theft, and living in a mud hut or worse is common. They all come here to see what they can get for free. And the trouble follows them. Mostly ignorant, violent, ungrateful low life morons. No women, old, kids, disabled visible. If the biased media see one they latch onto it to try and show that they are genuine. Its bullshit!

[Sully]

I myself never feared being born a male child, teen, and grown man. But just consider being a male in many of those countries just as you should be starting to understand life and getting an education, many of these people are forced to become a part of some military that has no true meaning for them. There is actually no right or wrong side. It is all wrong. Young men 13 yrs+ old are considered to be of fighting age. What is to come of them?

I do think I would fear to be a half grown kid lose my family and the anchors of my young life to be cast out of all I might have known. These (orphaned????) kids are pretty aimless, without some direction where do they go? I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWERS ARE !! I really don't know all the questions! If in fact there are some answers; (there may not be any)

I seriously don't disagree with most of your philosophies, there is more than a simple modicum of truth and reason to them. To have viable opinions, we all must have solutions for the negative ones. There is always more than one side to every story or problem. NO ONE can turn the calendar back, what is -- is.

Both of our Nations have 18th century people scurrying around our 21st century countries. I discussed the males of this society, what of the young females? Girls not yet to the age of puberty are considered wed able by these cro magnon thinking tribes.

[Gnomatic]

Looks like you Brits done pissed off the Huns again ....

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3301653/h ... -new-poll/

[Burgerman]

Well its not too important what the people think. Thee big tool/white goods/car/other industries will want a friendly exit and good trade deal. The realities of their economy say this has to be true. They cannot afford to lose the huge UK market for their stuff. Our shops are full of German gear, cars, etc.

They sell us one hell of a lot more stuff than the opposite way around. And nothing stops us buying Australian, US, Korean, Japanese, or even french, Italian cars if they don't want to sell theirs! Their loss, not ours. I personally would leave today, no deal at all. Within 24 hours there would be a huge que of countries and companies wanting to continue selling their stuff to us! Bring it on. These politicians haven't a clue how to do a deal. They need to be strong, not weak. Offer equal trade, and if that doesn't suit them, walk, closed the drawbridge.

The Germans and the french have elections soon... Then we will see if these europhiles have the population on their side, or if merkel gets the boot, and the french vote for marine le pen. And goodby to the EU. The germans are worried that the UK money is gone. They cant fund or subsidize the EU alone!

[Gnomatic]

On this side of the pond we haven't been hearing much on the Brexit situation. What's going on with boarder control, and where in your opinion does that seem to be headed?

[Burgerman]

I have no idea!

Nobody here cares one bit about a German family, or Spanish family moving in next door. Its the fighting age men, 4 to a room, Somalian or middle eastern Muslim's that we don't want. We don't want 17th century 3rd world savages by the thousand that we now call gimigrants. Because they just want whatever then can get. But we are not "allowed" to say this... So we have to call the problem immigration, border control, etc. So the ones we don't care about get targeted too. This is the result of political correctness by liberals for 50 years. So who knows.

[Gnomatic]

Okay, I get that. So lets take it a step further, what happens if the Scots declare independence and (re)join the EU?

[Burgerman]

Theres about 6 people live there. I couldn't care less. In any case that sturgeon woman winds me and most of the scots up. She has a one track mind. Independence. She did a referendum already and lost. And will continue to do so. And it was decided already. And now all the newest polls say that:

a) if rerun the result would be to stay in the EU. Bigger no than before...
b) the polls say that the people have had it with referendums and they did their once in a generation vote, and decided to stay in the UK... They do NOT want another vote anyway.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-39264468
4 out of 5 say no to new scottish referendum...

Leave the UK?
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/sc ... -57-yes-4/
A couple of weeks ago...

No way.

[Gnomatic]

Interesting. Does the EU survive?

[Burgerman]

Not in its current form. Without de centralising and giving power back to the countries, and getting rid on the euro. But thats not the unelected EU project leaders plan. So I dont think so long term. They will plough on head in sand till it collapses.

[Sully]

The way I see it, there are several basic things necessary to make a Union of independent states into a single republic.
1) A thoroughly democratically chosen Constitution, by every nation involved in that Union.
2) Democratically chosen/elected representatives from each member states to govern/manage that Union
3)A well defined land mass to be communally governed by that Union. Preferably all within the same continental boundaries
4) a common currency
5) a common national language
This last one, is perhaps the most difficult to achieve. However, the language issue could be/would be, only for the legal documents and legislation, used by all member states, not necessarily the citizens of any single member state. And during any discussions in parliamentary discussions as well.

There are many reasons for every consideration. A Constitution limiting the vested powers of a national government. delineating the terms of every elected official, Limiting the unelected officials to an amount necessary to administer the departments necessary for operating such a Union. Any increase or decrease in the original number of departments (elected or unelected positions) should be done by national referendums (ballot vote) As well as the many issues member states see as detrimental to their states wrapped into such a Union.

But a contract agreement (constitution) with every participant state's approval designed to protect that Union from any other nation, member or non-member. Creating a common all encompassing Defense force made up of membership from every and all member states. I particularly like the posse comitatus act which prohibits the use of the combined Military within the National borders as a National police force. Let every member state be responsible for those issues.

OK enough of this shit. You get the idea.

[Burgerman]

1 and 2 will never happen, as the whole thing is steered and controlled by a bunch of socialist loonies that want a united states of the world with free and shared everything with as many races/religions/colours/cultures as possible in some crazy attempt to ruin all the decent stable, educated, richer countries.

3. Ever absorbing more and more poorer and less cultured backward countries like turkey (next...)

4. A common currency cant work across diverse countries with different levels of prosperity. EG the greek would LOVE to devalue their currency, to allow them to sell and compete with the rest of the world. But they and most of the poorer countries cannot and so are screwed. Great for germany however as theirs is artificially low. So that will soon collapse. The Euro. Massive mistake that we wanted nothing to do with.

5. Thats not going to happen either.

Constitution? Bad idea. You cant even control your own borders or guns because of it. Welcome to the ever increasing Muslim infestation problem!

[Burgerman]

Why would Grexit benefit the Greek economy, at least in theory? If Greece had its own currency, the exchange rate could go down and make its exports more competitive and imports into Greece less competitive. Locked into the Euro, however, Greece can restore external balance only by cutting its wages relative to Germany and other surplus countries. That has been happening slowly and painfully through soaring unemployment (about 25% overall and about 50% for young people). As a route to restore competitiveness, it is far preferable to devalue the currency than to lower relative wages through unemployment. If Greece left the euro it would no doubt have a currency set at a more competitive level relative to the euro.

It's one thing to devalue a national currency when everyone has contracts, pay scales, etc. that remain denominated in that currency. It's quite another thing to create a new currency. Imagine the chaos that could ensue if everyone decided to renegotiate all those arrangements.

After it joined the euro and until the global financial crisis, the Greek government and private sector could borrow at virtually the same rates as those in Germany. Greece ran an increasingly large trade deficits financed by capital inflows from Germany and other northern European countries that were running increasingly large trade surpluses.

The run to transfer bank deposits out of Greece has been destabilizing for the Greek economy in recent months (as it was in 2012). Whenever a devaluation is feared, middle class families with savings join big financial institutions and the wealthy in transferring funds out of a country. If Greece were to exit the euro, financial players would worry that the same could happen to Portugal, Spain and Italy. For that reason, no one in power in Europe wants Grexit.

[Gnomatic]

If Greece were to exit the euro, financial players would worry that the same could happen to Portugal, Spain and Italy. For that reason, no one in power in Europe wants Grexit.

Why does Greece even want remain in the EU? It's killing them economically. This was always going to be the case, that some country or countries being squeezed, as long as the EU remained a a monetary union but not a fiscal one.