Battery replacement

[Tigerfan11]

Ok, don’t shout if I’m about to make an idiot of myself, but..

I have an 8mph scooter ( an Electic Mobility Liteway 8) which i love and nownhave a smaller more transportable folding scooter. Id still like to use the
8mph one but it needs new batteries. It takes 3 packs each pack using 2 12v 15ah sla batteries.

I was wondering if its possible to make a pack made up of litium batteries to fill each pack?

How difficult is it, if at all possible please?

Paul

[Burgerman]

It takes 3 packs each pack using 2 12v 15ah sla batteries.

Yes, but this needs clarification.
Theres a thread here that uyou might read too.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1813

[Burgerman]

I am partly guessing. Thes packs (there are 3?) are all actually 24V (2x lead bricks) and connect in parallel so you can use 1, 2, or 3?
Or are they all 12V and the scooter is 36V? And you must uuse all 3?

[rover220]

Iirc they are 3 banks of 24v in parallel.

[Tigerfan11]

Sorry yes they are in parallel so I can use 1 2 or all 3

[Burgerman]

So its a 24V system. You need to use 3x 24V batteries?

What are the dimensions of the two batteries as fitted into each box?

[Tigerfan11]

Hi the batteries are (L) 151mm x (W) 99mm x (H) 100mm

[Burgerman]

Can you fit 4 of these to each box?

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/zippy-fligh ... -pack.html

That will allow 24V and 16.8Ah per box. And you just need a few connectors and an 8s lithium charger like the PL8 we use.

That will increase range by around 65 to 70%. So if it does 15 miles now, it will do 1.7x that. So about 24.

[Songshadow]

About bad those batteries"
I used a 8-Amp desulfating battery charger I bought on ebay to bring back my old 55-AH gel-cell batteries.
I had to hit them with a regular old 50-Amp battery charger for 5 minutes before they would start charging at 5 Amps off of a 10 Amp setting.
After the charge read 11 Volts on the meter, I switched them over to the desulfating battery charger, and brought them back up to 14 Volts.
I found out the lowest price for those batteries cost $120.oo each so, I reached into my bag of tricks, and I surprised myself.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-8A-Smart-B ... SwcXpZn54L

Ok, don’t shout if I’m about to make an idiot of myself, but..

I have an 8mph scooter ( an Electic Mobility Liteway 8) which i love and nownhave a smaller more transportable folding scooter. Id still like to use the
8mph one but it needs new batteries. It takes 3 packs each pack using 2 12v 15ah sla batteries.

I was wondering if its possible to make a pack made up of litium batteries to fill each pack?

How difficult is it, if at all possible please?

Paul

[Burgerman]

I used a 8-Amp desulfating battery charger I bought on ebay to bring back my old 55-AH gel-cell batteries.
I had to hit them with a regular old 50-Amp battery charger for 5 minutes before they would start charging at 5 Amps off of a 10 Amp setting.
After the charge read 11 Volts on the meter, I switched them over to the desulfating battery charger, and brought them back up to 14 Volts.

Desulfators are snake oil.

Do you know what desulfating is? Its charging, properly. Leaving any low current charger or power source on for a few days does the same "rescue" of a sulfated battery.
When you DISCHARGE any battery the sulfuric acid electrolyte turns to lead sulfate and coats the battery plates. This is how they work. That is the chemical reaction that makes the power. Leaving behind a more dilute solution of Acid/water as electrolyte. Charging simply reverses this reaction.

With a GOOD charger, you continue the charge which reverses the reaction and turns the lead sulfate from the plates back into sulfuric acid and back into the electrolyte. So charging DESULFATES the battery and does so as completely as is possible.

The problem you had was that your charger ENDS charge, too soon. Like almost every charger does. Leaving lead sulfate on the plates. The charge needs to be continued for around 12 to 16 hours or sulfates are left behind every cycle. And it builds up. Your chargers however, tell you its done LONG before the final part of the charge completely desulfates your battery. They end too soon.

So the real solution is to charge properly. Desulfators have never achieved anything that proper charging doesent also do. As such DESULFATION (negative pulses etc) is all snake oil.

This is why I use my hobby chargers. It allows me to CORRECTLY charge my chairs batteries, using the settings I want. If they end sooner than around 12 to 14 hours then its not a complete charge. And its not possible to do that overnight.

[Songshadow]

Wow! When I leave a battery charging for 16 hours it gets too hot: it burns up, and never works again: ever! Well, not when I am charging it with only 2 Amps. You must have a great battery charger.

Now tell me about reverse charging a battery. I've heard about it, I have seen where it has been done but I have never done it myself, and made it work.
My desulfating battery charger shut off automatically: I like that! It also throws error codes to help understand my battery's condition.
Besides all that, it is small enough to fit inside my chair.
Thanks for the info!

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I used a 8-Amp desulfating battery charger I bought on ebay to bring back my old 55-AH gel-cell batteries.
I had to hit them with a regular old 50-Amp battery charger for 5 minutes before they would start charging at 5 Amps off of a 10 Amp setting.
After the charge read 11 Volts on the meter, I switched them over to the desulfating battery charger, and brought them back up to 14 Volts.

Desulfators are snake oil.

Do you know what desulfating is? Its charging, properly. Leaving any low current charger or power source on for a few days does the same "rescue" of a sulfated battery.
When you DISCHARGE any battery the sulfuric acid electrolyte turns to lead sulfate and coats the battery plates. This is how they work. That is the chemical reaction that makes the power. Leaving behind a more dilute solution of Acid/water as electrolyte. Charging simply reverses this reaction.

With a GOOD charger, you continue the charge which reverses the reaction and turns the lead sulfate from the plates back into sulfuric acid and back into the electrolyte. So charging DESULFATES the battery and does so as completely as is possible.

The problem you had was that your charger ENDS charge, too soon. Like almost every charger does. Leaving lead sulfate on the plates. The charge needs to be continued for around 12 to 16 hours or sulfates are left behind every cycle. And it builds up. Your chargers however, tell you its done LONG before the final part of the charge completely desulfates your battery. They end too soon.

So the real solution is to charge properly. Desulfators have never achieved anything that proper charging doesent also do. As such DESULFATION (negative pulses etc) is all snake oil.

This is why I use my hobby chargers. It allows me to CORRECTLY charge my chairs batteries, using the settings I want. If they end sooner than around 12 to 14 hours then its not a complete charge. And its not possible to do that overnight.

[Burgerman]

Wow! When I leave a battery charging for 16 hours it gets too hot: it burns up, and never works again: ever! Well, not when I am charging it with only 2 Amps. You must have a great battery charger.

Amps dont matter. The battery DRAWS whatever amps it wants. When presented with a voltage. The current that flows depends on internal resistance, or the limit the charger can give. Provided you only charge at the CORRECT CV voltage, and the correct FLOAT voltage at a given temperature and time limits, no damage can result.. If it warms by more than a few degrees, then you are charging at the wrong CV voltage or the battery has "run away" caused by heavy sulfation due to a crap charger...

And understand that just 0.1V too high, matters. Get this wrong, and almost every charger does, and you can easily get thermal runaway, which is what you describe.

For EG here is the CORRECT way to charge an MK Gel as used in most of our chairs.
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK1.pdf
If you follow this, with an MK Gel battery for eg, which you did not, you will not get any thermal runaway. Please note that the CV voltage needs to be reduced above room temperature, and increasd below it.

Now tell me about reverse charging a battery. I've heard about it, I have seen where it has been done but I have never done it myself, and made it work.

Its the best way to ruin any battery that you will ever find. The plates are pasted with lead dioxide and lead sulphate for the opposite polarity plate. (Actually a mix of lead oxide, sulfuric acid, water, and coated with lead sulphate/lead dioxide.) Reverse charging totally screws this all up royally. Although the battery then reads 12.9V fully charged in reverse. And has a dismal unusable capacity...

My desulfating battery charger shut off automatically: I like that!

Define shuts off?
All battery charger should charge at whatever their max output amps are, till the battery reaches its exact CV voltage point, and then current naturally falls away as the battery becomes more full. This can be 6 to 12 hours typically. The charger should then stop charging at the point where current falls to approx 500th to 1000thC or 8 to 14 hours depending on spec, max, whichever is sooner. At this point it SHOULD drop to a continual float level to prevent internal losses depleting the battery over time and allowing sulfation.

It also throws error codes to help understand my battery's condition.
Besides all that, it is small enough to fit inside my chair.
Thanks for the info!

What possible error codes could it throw?
How do you set the following:
CV voltage, and the required 3mv per degree C correction for temperature?
How do you set the correct time limit, and correct termination from CV current?
How do you set the correct CV level for the float voltage?

If you cant its likely ruining your batteries.

[steves1977uk]

Most likely cheap batteries, MK Gel or Odyssey are the only ones worth fitting. Which 8A charger were you using? Something must be wrong if the batteries are getting hot.

Steve

[Songshadow]

Thanks for all the info. You sure know a lot more about batteries than I do.
So, I need a better charger. I am more than poor so anything on the cheap side will be good for me.
It's the same story concerning batteries. I'm on the cheap side of that too!
Some how I survive. I'm only missing a leg, and a toe but the doctors say stay off of my feet, or my foot as it may be.
I am no good at hopping. However, I am getting much better at falling. I use the "IWALK2" as a peg leg, and it keeps me mobile.
I would like to see how you tricked out your mini-van so you can drive it with your handicap.
My pickup truck has a left foot accelerator. I am working on a stick shift pull lever for the clutch on my other truck. It has a hydraulic throw-out bearing. I figure I could use two fingers to pull up the slide grip while I shift with my palm. Hope it works. I am still new to all this.
Thanks for all the help. I don't usually feel this dumb about most things! This is a new area for me.

Wow! When I leave a battery charging for 16 hours it gets too hot: it burns up, and never works again: ever! Well, not when I am charging it with only 2 Amps. You must have a great battery charger.

Amps dont matter. The battery DRAWS whatever amps it wants. When presented with a voltage. The current that flows depends on internal resistance, or the limit the charger can give. Provided you only charge at the CORRECT CV voltage, and the correct FLOAT voltage at a given temperature and time limits, no damage can result.. If it warms by more than a few degrees, then you are charging at the wrong CV voltage or the battery has "run away" caused by heavy sulfation due to a crap charger...

And understand that just 0.1V too high, matters. Get this wrong, and almost every charger does, and you can easily get thermal runaway, which is what you describe.

For EG here is the CORRECT way to charge an MK Gel as used in most of our chairs.
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK1.pdf
If you follow this, with an MK Gel battery for eg, which you did not, you will not get any thermal runaway. Please note that the CV voltage needs to be reduced above room temperature, and increasd below it.

Now tell me about reverse charging a battery. I've heard about it, I have seen where it has been done but I have never done it myself, and made it work.

Its the best way to ruin any battery that you will ever find. The plates are pasted with lead dioxide and lead sulphate for the opposite polarity plate. (Actually a mix of lead oxide, sulfuric acid, water, and coated with lead sulphate/lead dioxide.) Reverse charging totally screws this all up royally. Although the battery then reads 12.9V fully charged in reverse. And has a dismal unusable capacity...

My desulfating battery charger shut off automatically: I like that!

Define shuts off?
All battery charger should charge at whatever their max output amps are, till the battery reaches its exact CV voltage point, and then current naturally falls away as the battery becomes more full. This can be 6 to 12 hours typically. The charger should then stop charging at the point where current falls to approx 500th to 1000thC or 8 to 14 hours depending on spec, max, whichever is sooner. At this point it SHOULD drop to a continual float level to prevent internal losses depleting the battery over time and allowing sulfation.

It also throws error codes to help understand my battery's condition.
Besides all that, it is small enough to fit inside my chair.
Thanks for the info!

What possible error codes could it throw?
How do you set the following:
CV voltage, and the required 3mv per degree C correction for temperature?
How do you set the correct time limit, and correct termination from CV current?
How do you set the correct CV level for the float voltage?

If you cant its likely ruining your batteries.

[Burgerman]

So, I need a better charger. I am more than poor so anything on the cheap side will be good for me.

First you needthe battery specs and type etc before you can look for a cheap charger that may be ok for them.
Second you need some knowledge about batteries and chargers and how they actually work, and a volt meter at least to figure out if the cheap charger does what it should. Most dont.

It's the same story concerning batteries. I'm on the cheap side of that too!

That wont work. Using batteries in the way we do, for deep disharge, and with pulsed heavy loads when turning etc means that our application murders batteries. As such we need very low impedance, low peukert high quality deep cycle capable batteries. The reality of this means you need either MK Gel, or Odyssey pure lead AGM in the largest sizes possible. At least 73Ah grp 24 in a powerchair. There is literally only a few posible harder to find alternatives. Nothing else will work, or last long. Those are among the most expensive lead batteries available. And even those are only just capable with GOOD correct charging and a little user knowledge and good practises. The real solution is lithium. Right now thats more than double the cost, and theres no plug and play solution. But long term they work out cheaper and should last 7 to 10 years if LOOKED AFTER properly! Requires knowledge and learning... Also double to four times the range of lead.

I would like to see how you tricked out your mini-van so you can drive it with your handicap.
My pickup truck has a left foot accelerator. I am working on a stick shift pull lever for the clutch on my other truck. It has a hydraulic throw-out bearing. I figure I could use two fingers to pull up the slide grip while I shift with my palm. Hope it works. I am still new to all this.

Again being disabled isnt cheap. I went here http://www.rollxvans.com/ and imported a van into the UK ready converted, with the floor lowered by 10 inches, lowering suspension, hand controls, and electrically operated tie down. So ready to go. There are other ways, all are more trouble. And reliability and ease of use are paramount. Importing from the US, where these things are cheap saved me HALF the cost over buying the same thing in the UK.

No tricking out needed!

[Songshadow]

Howdy!

On this side of the pond most of our automotive batteries are rated in Cranking Amps, and Cold Cranking Amps.
The big truck, and boat batteries are good deep cycle batteries.

I have viewed quite a few real confusing web sites trying to convert AH to Cranking Amps if there is such a thing.
None of them meet with any satisfaction. Are you able to provide me with a formula, or a good working chart so I can judge these conversions for myself?

I tend to buy the 800 CCA quad post for all my rides. They cost around $80.oo when not on sale.
For some reason, many of the deep cycle batteries cost less money: I don't know why!

Songshadow

PS. I have been searching ebay for some affordable Lithium Batteries. They got them, but at the moment I am still in the educational stage.

[Burgerman]

On this side of the pond most of our automotive batteries are rated in Cranking Amps, and Cold Cranking Amps.

ALL automotive STARTER batteries are rated for CA and CCA in every country. They are designed only to do this. Starter motors take a huge pulse of power for a very short time. Almost all batteries designated as starter, or SLI (Starting Lights Ignition) are NOT deep cycle capable. And deep cycling them destroys them very rapidly.

The big truck, and boat batteries are good deep cycle batteries.

No they are not! Quite the opposite. True deep cycle batteries are terrible starting batteries as they need to have thicker plates, and less of them. So cannot produce high levels of current. And thinner plates pasted with spongy lead/lead dioxide as used in starter batteries literally fall apart if cycled deeply.

I have viewed quite a few real confusing web sites trying to convert AH to Cranking Amps if there is such a thing.
None of them meet with any satisfaction. Are you able to provide me with a formula, or a good working chart so I can judge these conversions for myself?

Its not possible! The thing that determines cranking amp capability, is the battery impedance (AC resistance at high frequency) and the level of peukert that the battery has. Ah is a pure measure of the amount of stored power a battery has. So a given battery may have 100Ah if discharged evenly over 100 hours. And 80Ah if discharged over 20 hours. And 30Ah if discharged over 1 hour. And non of this has any bearing on its CCA or CA.

I tend to buy the 800 CCA quad post for all my rides. They cost around $80.oo when not on sale.
For some reason, many of the deep cycle batteries cost less money: I don't know why!

Because you are buying non deep cycle batteries. The cheap ones are simply garbage. Best described as lesure batteries. Those are always cheap. Because in place of thicker heavy lead plates, they have many smaller thinner calcium or other metal grids pasted with a spongy lead filling... That cannot stand deep cycle use like a true deep cycle battery can.

A typical true (expensive) deep cycle battery will cost 3x as much, and be capable of 500 cycles at 80% depth of discharge whie having a low impedance.
A typical starter battery, can do anywhere between 20 and 100 deep cycles to 80%.
A typical cheap leasure battery 200 to 300.


There is 2 exceptions to this.
These use PURE LEAD thin plate technology, not pasted grids. These are the Odyssey deep cycle and starting batteries and the Optima YELLOW top batteries.
These have both high CCA and CA and are deep ycle capable. But they COST!

I dont know where you are getting your battery info but I would run away fast.

PS. I have been searching ebay for some affordable Lithium Batteries. They got them, but at the moment I am still in the educational stage.

You certainly are.
I suggest you read here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1813
And here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3609