UK US political parties

[Burgerman]

UK has 2 big parties, conservatives and labour and a bunch of small irrelivant ones.

Conservative party here is for:
Capitalism (note not capitalists!) meaning lower taxation, free trade, privately owned companies and property. Live within means, lower country debt, and pro business. And they are also very liberal in that they love multiculturalism, freedom of every minority etc. But this applies to both main parties. Tends to be supported by the businessman, anyone with a grasp on reality that understands how to use a credit card properly and that understands economics, etc.
Note that religion or guns, (such things as abortions), doesent enter into it at all. Since we dont really have either of those things in the UK.

Labour party, is more socialist.
They love to support the workers, unions, with high taxation, running up the national debt, huge interference in business, taxation is high, nationalise industry, take from the rich to support the bottom of society, high minimum wage, high benefits for the out of work, lazy, etc. Results in almost bankrupting the country every time they get into power. Tends to be supported by both over educated idiots that have some strange idea that open borders, multiculturalism, and marxism is all some wonderful ideal. And students, university types, and the lazy and those that just want more goverment hand outs from the magic money tree.

In the US your liberal democrats are similar to labour.
But your conservatives are generally gun lovers and religous nuts? And seen as lower intelligence voters? The opposite to here. Very odd!

[rover220]

UK has 2 big parties, conservatives and labour and a bunch of small irrelivant ones.

Conservative party is for:
Capitalism (note not capitalists!) meaning lower taxation, free trade, user owned companies and property. Live within means, lower country debt, and pro business. And they are also very liberal in that they love multiculturalism, freedom of every minority etc. But this applies to both main parties. Tends to be supported by the businessman, anyone with a grasp on reality that understands how to use a credit card properly and that understands economics, etc.
Note that religion or guns, (such things as abortions), doesent enter into it at all. Since we dont really have either of those things in the UK.

Labour party, is more socialist.
They love to support the workers, unions, with high taxation, running up the national debt, huge interference in business, taxation is high, nationalise industry, take from the rich to support the bottom of society, high minimum wage, high benefits for the out of work, lazy, etc. Results in almost bankrupting the country every time they get into power. Tends to be supported by both over educated idiots that have some strange idea that open borders, multiculturalism, and marxism is all some wonderful ideal. And students, university types, and the lazy and those that just want more goverment hand outs from the magic money tree.

In the US your liberal democrats are similar to labour.
But your conservatives are generally gun lovers and religous nuts? And seen as lower intelligence voters? The opposite to here. Very odd!

Nicely summed up.

[Burgerman]

Thank you.

Which is why the US ended up with conservative nuts like trump, and religous child molesters like roy moor. Because conservative stands for god, bibles, guns, anti abortion, anti liberal views and other oddball stuff. Instead of a sensible way to run an economy.

You dont actually have a party I could vote for!

[Gnomatic]

In the US your liberal democrats are similar to labour.
But your conservatives are generally gun lovers and religous nuts? And seen as lower intelligence voters? The opposite to here. Very odd!

More or less!

[Burgerman]

So if you are not a religous fruit cake, or think rather alot of dead people in schools alone every year is rediculous, happen to be sane, and want a non socialist (suicidal) economy. Based of capitalism, free trade, that is good for business and balance of payments/growth, who exactly can you vote for?

How the hell has religious cult beliefs that should have absolutely zero to do with politics or economics got mixed up in governing a country?

Even trump mentions "god" as do your news reporters, every 2nd sentence. As does every bible belt or black person at every opportunity. Crazy way to run a country or a life. Everything, even laws, and votes depends on some imaginary freind.

[LROBBINS]

There are only two minor errors is your summary of U.S. politics.

Yes, the Democratic Party is decidedly to the left of the Republican Party, and there is a general belief among Democrats that government can do things to make things work better - e.g. regulate the banks (and sometimes fine them when they misbehave), but with few exceptions it is no where as far left as the British Labor Party. There is a semi-socialist minority, but it's very much a minority - though Bernie Sanders had remarkable traction despite describing himself as a democratic socialist.

Yes, the Republicans say they favor small government and balanced budgets, but in the last 40 years they have consistently run much higher deficits when in power than have the Democrats. Giving tax breaks to your friends while increasing military spending (or starting several wars), having the highest incarceration rate in the developed world (and keeping someone in prison is not only expensive per se, but means there's no chance that this person will be paying taxes) have never been offset by large-enough cuts in domestic spending (most of which goes to things like agribusiness, oil-depletion allowances and so on rather than social welfare and you certainly don't want to injure the hand that feeds you). The last president to actually run a budget surplus was Bill Clinton, a "small government" Democrat.

Of course, both of these parties are actually coalitions and the Republican Party in particular has always been torn between a libertarian faction and a control what goes on in your bedroom faction (that you ascribe to religious nuttiness). At the moment one of those is in ascendance.

[Burgerman]

With that in mind. Who can you vote for thats sane and understands business and economics?

[LROBBINS]

I can only tell you who I (usually) vote for. Unless the candidate is clearly a jerk, I vote for the democrat as even the most left-leaning will be constrained by the more centrist tone of the party as a whole (and, unfortunately, be constrained by the effectiveness of the monied lobbies as well).

[Burgerman]

Seems they need a new party that is centre right and democratic/believes in capitalist trade and sensible spending and balancing books, without the gun/imaginary freind stuff.

[LROBBINS]

That would be refreshing even if it wouldn't be my party. I would love to hear a real debate about the substance of public policy - both sides on any issue stand to gain from bits of wisdom coming from the other side. We've now had 9 years of the Republicans refusing have any real discourse on any issue, for 8 of them we just had gridlock, and this year we just get to add ineptitude and greed.

[Gnomatic]

Yes, the Republicans say they favor small government and balanced budgets, but in the last 40 years they have consistently run much higher deficits when in power than have the Democrats. Giving tax breaks to your friends while increasing military spending (or starting several wars), having the highest incarceration rate in the developed world (and keeping someone in prison is not only expensive per se, but means there's no chance that this person will be paying taxes) have never been offset by large-enough cuts in domestic spending (most of which goes to things like agribusiness, oil-depletion allowances and so on rather than social welfare and you certainly don't want to injure the hand that feeds you). The last president to actually run a budget surplus was Bill Clinton, a "small government" Democrat.

Excellent summation.

[Burgerman]

having the highest incarceration rate in the developed world

And much of it caused by drug problems.
https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/st ... fenses.jsp

And

if black and hispanics were incarcerated at the same rate as white americans the prison population would fall by 40%.

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/st ... e_race.jsp
Since blacks make up 12.5% of the population?

And after you somehow stop that, you would still be locking up around 5x as many per population head as most countries. What gives? Are americans more inclined to be drug addicts or criminal? Or exceptionally efficient cops!

And it appears you dont lock up women!
https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/st ... gender.jsp

[Burgerman]

Just looked. Neither do we! 6 percent women only...

And we also jail MORE blacks as a percentage than the US do!

UK. Black prisoners make up 15% of the prisoner population and this compares with 2.2% of the general population – there is greater disproportionality in the number of black people in prisons in the UK than there is in the United States

But we imprison approx 5 times less of the population as a percentage compared to the US. And the chinese are very much under represented in both countries. The US should in theory have 5x less criminals on the streets!

Much of this is caused by canibis. Weed. Here, its quite hard to get locked up for it, unless dealing. Or growing lots of it.

[Sully]

What you fail to realize is the dope peddlers, are capitalists and entrepreneurs but their product is illegal, but as many myself included believe. Take all the attributes you assign to Capitalism and the dope peddlers qualify. Most of the black people you find in jail would have made great entrepreneurs if they had a legal product to sell. These folks are not afraid of risk. However, the opportunity to represent a legal product is not there, but lots of money with their sales efforts selling dope.

Often in most states If a person is caught, with a specific quantity of some form of drug on their person, it most often gets them a jail sentence of some kind. In some states if a person gets CONVICTED of a felony 3 times or more they may and often must be considered incorrigible criminals, and are sentenced to life in prison (often not ever eligible for parole) Most of the sentencing rules/laws have been demanded by the voting public through their choice of State government representatives, NOT their Federal Reps. Most Federal Regs and Laws are permissive legislation for Local or State governments. It is up to the States to adopt many of these laws/regulations. Most American's let alone non-citizens truthfully know and understand the workings of government and the meld of the Federal Govt and State Government's laws and regulations enactments.

I consider myself one of those middle of the road Democrats, Neither all the way left, or all the way right. but a centrist. I really have a problem with the description, or definition of "Small or Smaller Government". As far as understanding just what every law or bill regulating something MUST include is the INTENT of the Law or regulation. This would be a way to control how courts could apply those laws, with an understanding of intent, and may well destroy add ons and not actually germain to the actual law as intended and written.

When the very folks who demand this, small or smaller government, place all sorts of demands on almost every agency of the Federal Government. In 90% of the government failures to detect some violation of regulations ARE under individual States control, or oversight.

I do believe in; Living within our means.
Supporting ourselves financially if all all possible. There are some exceptions to this financial supporting yourself. That would be if those individuals are not physically possible, or mentally possible, due to a natural, and not avoidably caused defect.
I believe in Public education, and the requirement of placing the onus of finally achieving that education on the student.
Enforcing the actual Laws and Regulations on the books.
Religion or spiritual beliefs have NO place in government in any way shape or manner. THAT is how the government was structurally organized, and the constitution was written. You can believe whatever you want, BUT you have no right to impose your religious beliefs into any law or regulation or person.

There are loads of small issues that I could never remember to include that I believe is what makes a centrist Democrat leaner. That is our third party. We bicker all the time.

I believe Bernie Sanders is just a tad too left leaning as is Elizabeth Warren. They do mean well, but I do not think any government can sustain such government provided individual support and survive. Very nice to try to imagine, but not do-able.

I would feel far more secure voting for either one of these people, than any offering that I have seen from the Republican side.

I do believe these huge corporations may well become the downfall of our western civilizations if allowed the total free reign they would like. I personally think we need to fear such corporations and organized religions far more than any western government.

[Burgerman]

What you fail to realize is the dope peddlers, are capitalists and entrepreneurs but their product is illegal, but as many myself included believe.

No. The fact that it IS against the law, removes all legal competition. All the usual CAPITALIST free trade cannot happen. This means that they can make money only because of artificially inflated price, and lack of product on the shelves in the supermarket. Thats not capitalism, thats just breaking the law to give yourself an unfair trade advantage. In a capitalist situation they would have to compete with 101 LEGAL sellars on every street corner competing on price. And go out of business.

Take all the attributes you assign to Capitalism and the dope peddlers qualify.

No they dont. They are in business only because its ILLEGAL! Removing all the fair competition.

Most of the black people you find in jail would have made great entrepreneurs if they had a legal product to sell.

Every normal product is legal. They could sell ANY product. Vacuum cleaners, to computers.

They could start a business selling those. But then they need to compete on equal terms without the advantage of zero legal competition. Thats hard. So they dont. They choose to sell a product that has a artificially inflated high price thats in short suppply only because its ILLEGAL! Thats why they are now in prison. Why didnt they sell newspapers, plumbing supplies, insurance?

These folks are not afraid of risk. However, the opportunity to represent a legal product is not there, but lots of money with their sales efforts selling dope.

Yes it is. But competing legally is hard. Under your definition, bank robbers, muggers, are all entrepeurs! Bad life choices, short term gain, and a life in prison is not a good life choice. They broke the law because that way they did not need to compete fairly. They COULD have sold a legal product or worked in exactly the same way that you farmed, or I ran my own LEGAL businesses, or the girls/guys that work for me as a carer do every day. They chose instead, to try to make a quick buck the easy illegal way. Thats just stupid, bad life choice, and the result is what we see in every prison.

[Gnomatic]

Much of this is caused by cannabis. Weed. Here, its quite hard to get locked up for it, unless dealing. Or growing lots of it.

Its very easy to get here. In most cases, its much easier for kids to obtain weed than it is alcohol if they/'re under the legal drinking age. Cannibals prohibition in the United States has been a total failure, and it's days are numbered. Already, seven states have voted to legalize recreational cannibals use, and more are on the way. It will be legal in Canada in 2018. Most recent polling indicates about 60% of the US population supports legalizing weed, a massive change from just a few decades ago.

Michigan, New Jersey, and Arizona will likey vote to legalize recreational weed next fall. Maybe others. But the trend is clear. Prohibition of cannabis in the US has been an abject and very expensive failure. And most folks here are finally coming to grips with that.

[Burgerman]

That will reduce your prison population by about a third alone.

[Gnomatic]

That will reduce your prison population by about a third alone.

Lets hope.

The private prison lobby is spending tons of money fighting these legalization efforts, because they recognize ending cannabis prohibition represents an existential threat to their business model.

[Burgerman]

Well here, its against the law. But they tend not to bother prosecuting, or fining even for personal use in modest quatities. They just take it away. And they do go after dealers and growers. Many parts of the country dont prosecute for growing small amounts for personal use either. Even though technically its against the law.