Another

[LROBBINS]

So I still think it would take total removal of guns from society to get the same level of deaths/shootings as the UK. But good gun control could get it down to the same level as switzerland. Over time.

I think so too. BUT 40% of tens of thousands is still tens of thousands of lives saved each year - and might eventually even lead to a change in attitudes toward guns.

At the moment a large fraction of guns held by criminals are ones stolen from legitimate owners, but more often than not the theft has never been reported to police. Why spend money or risk a background check when you can just grab one, probably already loaded, from a handy nightstand or auto glove box?

[Burgerman]

A detailed analisis comparing like with like. For Twinpanther.

https://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/
A careful zero bias like for like data analysis.

CONCLUSION: =======================================
While it becomes clear that certain types of offenses are marginally higher in the UK than in the US (robbery and knife crime being more likely in the UK by an order of 1.1x and 1.27x respectively) a number of other, more serious offenses, are both marginally and substantially higher in the US. Rape of a female is 1.02x more likely in the US, while theft of a vehicle is 1.29x more likely. More disturbingly, burglary is significantly higher at 1.52x more likely to occur in the US.

However, it is at the considerably more, well, violent crimes that America really supersedes England and Wales into its own class. In the United States, you are 6.9x more likely to be the victim of aggravated assault resulting in serious injury than in the UK. You are 4.03x more likely to be murdered than in the UK. And more staggeringly (though not surprising) you are 35.2x more likely to be shot dead in the Unites States than in the UK. Before anybody asks, no, these do not take into account justifiable homicide and other “acceptable shootings”, nor do murders for that matter:

“The UCR Program does not include the following situations in this offense classification: deaths caused by negligence, suicide, or accident; justifiable homicides; and attempts to murder or assaults to murder, which are scored as aggravated assaults.” (FBI – UCS – Violent Crime)

What does this tell us? Well, maybe it is easier to say what this DOESN’T tell us. For starters, it DOESN’T tell us the UK is a more violent country than the US, and not even close. It DOES tell us that in fact, the United States is a lot more violent a country when it comes to serious offenses likely to result in serious injury, shootings or murder. It also tells us journalists, media outlets, bloggers, armchair political scientists and opinionated posters don’t actually bother to go through the numbers and verify the facts for themselves. Taking any information provided, by whichever source, at face value and without any attempt at critical thinking or even a small dose of scepticism is dangerous and seriously out of touch with reality.

In sum, it becomes clear that an objective comparison between any two countries types of offenses is a difficult and time consuming endeavour. In order for it to be done properly, matching definitions need to be found, and umbrella terms that group large numbers of what one country may class as offenses and the other not, must be avoided. Statistics must be broken down to their bare bones and compared accurately and objectively if any meaningful parallels are to be found. I hope that above, I have shown not only the truth, but also nothing may ever be taken at face value. I would welcome any others who decided to base their comments and views on similar grounds, rather than the vitriolic and groundless drivel I will no doubt be expecting. I don’t even expect more than a fraction of you will have read this far.

And if you have, it is clear WHY the United States IS more violent than the UK.

[Lord Chatterley]

Thats not true. Theres always been half the population below average intelligence and or violent or metal or all three. At least as far as we can tell. There was also far less population, no way to report or spread news or info like there is today with everything wired for communication, and 1/5th the population? So nobody knows what really happened.

Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson never seemed short of either guns or ammo.

LC

[Lord Chatterley]

A detailed analisis comparing like with like. For Twinpanther.

https://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/
A careful zero bias like for like data analysis.

CONCLUSION: =======================================
While it becomes clear that certain types of offenses are marginally higher in the UK than in the US (robbery and knife crime being more likely in the UK by an order of 1.1x and 1.27x respectively) a number of other, more serious offenses, are both marginally and substantially higher in the US. Rape of a female is 1.02x more likely in the US, while theft of a vehicle is 1.29x more likely. More disturbingly, burglary is significantly higher at 1.52x more likely to occur in the US.

However, it is at the considerably more, well, violent crimes that America really supersedes England and Wales into its own class. In the United States, you are 6.9x more likely to be the victim of aggravated assault resulting in serious injury than in the UK. You are 4.03x more likely to be murdered than in the UK. And more staggeringly (though not surprising) you are 35.2x more likely to be shot dead in the Unites States than in the UK. Before anybody asks, no, these do not take into account justifiable homicide and other “acceptable shootings”, nor do murders for that matter:

“The UCR Program does not include the following situations in this offense classification: deaths caused by negligence, suicide, or accident; justifiable homicides; and attempts to murder or assaults to murder, which are scored as aggravated assaults.” (FBI – UCS – Violent Crime)

What does this tell us? Well, maybe it is easier to say what this DOESN’T tell us. For starters, it DOESN’T tell us the UK is a more violent country than the US, and not even close...

And if you adjusted the stats according to demography...?

LC

[Sully]

I for one will not entirely disagree with you. The USA is somewhat more violent than GB. But in all reality where the F can car thieves go with a stolen car? You live on an island! A big one but an island nonetheless. So you break it up and sell it little by little, I believe size of the Nation is the key to such thievery. Evil people will always be a percentage of every population of human beings. So knife crimes replace gun crimes here. Personal attacks rape and sexual assault are evil crimes showing some psychological problems or the inability to control emotions (same thing).

Personally in the almost 50 years since I was in GB and Ireland it was rather apparent "Then" you Brits respect the law just a tad more than Americans and Western Europeans in general do so as well. Perhaps if the Europeans didn't respect authority quite so much, Hitler and Mussolini and their plot against the world wouldn't have gotten so far. Just guessing at that. Another big item is your police departments are not so heavily armed as the USA policing departments are. And still from memory, your policing departments are, far more respectful of, and to, the average citizen that many of our guys are. NOT ALL mind you, just enough to make for severe bitterness when abuses are committed.

When you add a bunch of small things together you can make for one rather big issue. "Bitterness against authority" Is a huge issue, and taken out against the most helpless amongst us. Fear of Police and injustice manifests itself as bullying someone who has no chance to defend themselves. These things are just a light skimming of the surface of social problems which plague my Nation.

[Burgerman]

And if you adjusted the stats according to demography...?

LC

That may also affect the figures. But likely goes nowhere near the 4.03x more likely to be murdered, 6.9 times more likely to be assaulted, or 32x more likely to be shot dead.

But its tru even in the UK, that the black areas are way more likely to kill and be killed or robbed by each other in those places.

[Lord Chatterley]

The Hutu murdered one million Tutsi with nothing more sophisticated than kitchen utensils.

Evil deeds are caused by evil ideas - not by the machinery you happen have access to.

LC

[Burgerman]

Exept that ease of access to the better tools would have made them able to do it faster and kill more at a time.

And every realistic stat, and corrolation shows you are wrong. Corrolation isnt proof. Until the sheer weight of it makes denial look rather silly.

[Twinpanther]

A detailed analisis comparing like with like. For Twinpanther.

My appologies, Burgerman. I know your stance on guns and usually you are very on point with facts. However, I guess I was baiting you with a biased NRA comparison. Mainly due to the quote below which was corrected all over the news/internet prior to your post.

Amazingly thats the 18th school shooting in the US this year alone, and its only halfway though february!

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/sta ... r-2018-an/

Honestly, I did want to see a more accurate reflection of reality and your link mostly supplied that (Yes, I did actually read it, lol).

Reality is, we needed guns to free ourselves and begin our lives in another land. Without those guns the USA would be the USofUK. Having your rulers remove guns and any right to have them may have worked for you and be a benefit NOW but that didn't work out so well in other lands. In this day and age, there is no way anyone will ever remove guns from the people of the United States. There are too many and the feeling/belief to own them will never recede. There are problems far greater you are facing which we are having to come to terms with now ourselves. Sharia Law/Terrorism/etc...

A bit off topic but I love this Air Force Veteran, Barry Loudermilk's, article written shortly after 9/11:

At a high school in Oklahoma, school officials remove “God Bless America” signs from schools in fear that someone might be offended.

At a Long Island, New York television station, management orders flags removed from the newsroom, and red, white, and blue ribbons removed from the lapels of reporters. Why? Management did not want to appear biased, and felt that our nation’s flag might give the appearance that “they lean one way or another.”

Officials in a California city ban U.S. flags from being displayed on city fire trucks because they didn’t want to offend anyone in the community.

In an “act of tolerance,” the head of the public library at a Florida university ordered all “Proud to Be an American” signs removed so as to not offend international students.

I, for one, am quite disturbed by these actions of so-called “American citizens”; and I am tired of this nation worrying about whether or not we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on September 11th, we have experienced a surge of patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled in New York and Washington, DC when the “politically correct” crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. In fact, our country’s population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants; however, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some native-born Americans, need to understand.

First of all, it is not our responsibility to continually try not to offend you in any way. This idea of America being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language, and our own lifestyle. This culture, called the “American Way” has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. Our forefathers fought, bled, and died at places such as Bunker Hill, Antietam, San Juan Hill, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Korea, Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf, for our way of life.

We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn our language!

“In God We Trust” is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, right wing, political slogan. It is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol, and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation; and this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it is appropriate for our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest level of government, then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.

God is in our pledge, our National Anthem, nearly every patriotic song, and in our founding documents. We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture, and we are proud to have Him.

We are proud of our heritage and those who have so honorably defended our freedoms. We celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and Flag Day. We have parades, picnics, and barbecues where we proudly wave our flag. As an American, I have the right to wave my flag, sing my national anthem, quote my national motto, and cite my pledge whenever and wherever I choose. If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don’t like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of it. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don’t care how you did things where you came from. We are Americans. Like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle.

Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion about our government, culture, or society, and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom, the right to leave!

And yes, I know your stance on God. It is a belief our country was built on and I am personally proud of it. Our time is short on this Earth and how we live that defines us.

Lastly, I may not agree with some of your opinions but you have earned my respect over the years. Thank you for having a place for all to speak their mind and always willing to share a pint afterwards!

[Burgerman]

And yes, I know your stance on God. It is a belief our country was built on and I am personally proud of it. Our time is short on this Earth a nd how we live that defines us.

Exactly, so why waste it on some imaginary magical immoral sky bully. And why be proud of some completely irrational belief in some imaginary daddy figure? Goes way beyond childish. Its basically because you are brainwashed into it.

God? Do you mean gods? Since everyone you ask gives a different definition about their god and cant tell me how they know this. I see zero evidence for any gods, spirits, ghosts, pixies, fairies, elves, father xmas, heavens or hells, talking to dead people, magic of any kind or any supernatural thing whatsoever. Neither has anyone else ever seen a single shred of evidence. Or any single non material thing in the universe. Literally non. In all of history theres not an ounce of evidence that any of this magic woo woo is real. The time to believe something is when the evidence shows it to be true. Which makes you all bonkers.

R. Dawkins description based on your "good" book:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” And he doesent exist.

As for political correctness, then that really is crazy.

Unless you know different?

[Twinpanther]

So, Burgerman. Tell me how you really feel, lol.

You say there is no proof He exists and I say there is no proof He doesn't. It simply can't be proven. For every "beginning" there will always be something or some being that caused it. Time for instance. It's a construct but it must have had a beginning, right? or did it always exist? Or did it mystically/magically just one day start like...In the beginning?

I don't believe in religion but I do believe in God. For me, He's a guide and moral compass. For you it's a trigger to another dimension, lol.

[Burgerman]

So, Burgerman. Tell me how you really feel, lol.

I did!

You say there is no proof He exists and I say there is no proof He doesn't. It simply can't be proven.

That alone is your problem. Those two options are not equal.
In regards every other god or fantastical claim, you too would dismiss them all immediately. Why? No evidence.
You cant prove that I didnt create the universe yesterday. You cant prove that unicorn creating pixies dont exist. Or that Ra or thor isnt real. So by your logic you MUST give equal credibility to every daft claim no matter how fantastical. But you dont. You only suspend your normal reason and logic when it comes to a god that you were brainwashed into by society. The society around you. Ask yourself why you dont believe in the greek gods or fairies? Obviously, if I claimed I created the universe, you would dismiss it out of hand. Why? Because its a fantastic claim without any SUPPORTING EVIDENCE!!!

Quite obviously then, its not my job to prove your imaginary freind doesent exist. Since thats impossible. The onus is on you. Fantastical claims require equally strong supporting evidence. Or nobody that is rational or sane should believe it.

For every "beginning" there will always be something or some being that caused it.

Nope. Science doesent know. So it correctly answers this question as unknown - yet. There are various competing theories. Many of which require NO anything and certainly not an intelligence to start it. Not that it would explain anything, since you now have to explain where your intelligence came from AS WELL!
Quantum fluctuations see matter coming into existence and other matter disapearing all the time. Thats easy to observe today. From nothing. Every where in space.
Black holes and the same singularity at the centre as the big bang may be producing either new matter on the other side, in a different space time meaning new universes are created out of old ones continually, or be producing more big bangs or expansion in areas of the universe way beyond what we can see past the observable universe. And quantum physics shows that the quantum affect causes new universes constantly that have their own time and space that we will never see. If you believe what the science shows us. So that needing a cause is a bullshit statement! The truth is that most scientists know that there WAS something before the big bang. But not what that was or how it works - yet.

Time for instance. It's a construct but it must have had a beginning, right? or did it always exist? Or did it mystically/magically just one day start like...In the beginning?

Time is not a contruct its simply entropy. And before the big bang(s) isnt understood. We dont know what came before. But since theres no entropy at the moment of the big bang there was no time either. But may have been time elsewhere. So you cant go sticking a god in there unless you have some evidence for one. Thats er... We dont know -- god! Why a god? Any EVIDENCE? Why do you claim to know stuff you cannot possibly know?

I don't believe in religion but I do believe in God. For me, He's a guide and moral compass

.
Interesting. So if "he" manifests in reality, then science can measure it, and or find evidence in support of him. Except that he doesent. So if a god exists, then the difference between him, and no god is zero...

So how does he guide you. I will let the thug that is the classical god and his perverse morality go for now.

Tell me what is your evidence for a god? And no, mental problems or confusion in your own head does not make evidence! Proper evidence of the empirical type that we can test. Or its not evidence. Any? Thought not!

[Burgerman]

Trump solution to all the deaths and school shootings? You got it! More guns! You couldnt make it up.

And when a teacher loses the plot and runs amok what then? Arm the kids? Of course! Thatl help...

[Twinpanther]

What I find fascinating is you demand empirical evidence from me while discussing unknowns. My belief is science may one day discover the proof you are asking for. Maybe millennia from now if we were to survive as a species (which I highly doubt).

As for you creating the universe yesterday, since I wasn't born yesterday, there is your proof you were incorrect. See what I did there? Do you ever smile? Or should I just wait for the expected quote with a derogatory comment thrown in.

Science is not facts. It's theory and hypothesis resulting in discoveries resulting in facts which we use to build and grow our God given intelligence (OK, that one was simply to see if I could hear your frustration all the way across the pond).

If you like, call my faith simply my personal hypothesis based on personal experiences. To quote your own explanation of things in regards to God. "Science doesn't know. So it correctly answers this question as unknown - yet."

I would like to ask a question. I know you love to debate and that's what I'm taking this as or is this more something you get irritated by and don't enjoy debating as you do most other things and just see this as, to use your language on the subject, educating some mentally ill person?

[Twinpanther]

Quite obviously then, its not my job to prove your imaginary freind doesent exist. Since thats impossible. The onus is on you.

I guess this is the confusion. I'm not in any way trying to prove to anyone God exists. It's simply what I believe in. You are the one asking for proof. Proof comes from faith and your own beliefs. You have yours and I have mine. You obviously have a very negative view of mine which may or may not diminish your view of me as a human being but I'm OK with that either way. Regardless, it's an intelligent conversation from total opposite ends of the spectrum and one in which I hope others read and think about regardless of whichever end they lean towards.

[Burgerman]

It doesent affect my view of you as a person. I am just always left bewildered by religous peoples logic.

As I see it, faith proves nothing. Its promote as something positive. What it actually is is a word used to describe the irrational belief in something where no evidence exists. Which isnt logical. And you dont use that kind of logic on other things. Because that would mean you would also believe in my invisible pink unicorn.

In other words its a kind of special pleading that only applies to your specifc god. It does not change anything about how I think of you in any way. You are just wrong and I was trying to explain why so you can see your error. But you can do that too, regarding any other subject. But when you do this regarding someones god "belief" they always turn it into a personal offence thing. Because they too cant explain it because the reality is that its just mental conditioning and it isnt real. But feel free to believe whatever you want.

[Lord Chatterley]

Trump solution to all the deaths and school shootings? You got it! More guns! You couldnt make it up.

And when a teacher loses the plot and runs amok what then? Arm the kids? Of course! Thatl help...

But you have already admitted that you supported gun ownership in the past but since you have become pessimistic about the rationality of your fellow countrymen you prefer to live unarmed surrounded by irrational people.

Seems to me that your change of mind is determined by what is pragmatic rather than what is principled.

There is a name for that - it's called pragmatism.

LC

[Lord Chatterley]

Exept that ease of access to the better tools would have made them able to do it faster and kill more at a time.

And every realistic stat, and corrolation shows you are wrong. Corrolation isnt proof. Until the sheer weight of it makes denial look rather silly.

White vans don't kill over 100 people all by themselves. Are you going to ban vans?

The Yanks are right on this - if you lose the right to bear arms you can kiss goodbye to all your other rights - that's exactly what's happened to us.

LC

[Lord Chatterley]

Exept that ease of access to the better tools would have made them able to do it faster and kill more at a time.

Took them less than 100 days. That's Aztec levels of sacrifice.

LC

[Lord Chatterley]

Watching the Chief Executive of NRA live on CPAC - very good defence of capitalism and the US Constitution - while slamming crooks in FBI.

LC

[Burgerman]

White vans don't kill over 100 people all by themselves. Are you going to ban vans?

Your argument is flawed. We need vans. And trucks. And planes. And toasters. And ladders. And 1001 other things that can kill. We need doctors and they kill people too. We dont need guns. Other than to defend yourself from guess what... And the figures show that the result of owning one even just for self defence results in you being MORE likely to end up dead.

Thats just thousands of people dead for nothing.

I like the idea of ME owning a gun. Unfortunately if that means the rest of the population most of which are incapable of rational thought, and over emotional, drug adicts, plain evil bastaards, mentally ill delusionalists (probably from you local nut house/church/ilogical centre) ALSO having one, then no thanks. I am safer if they dont! So I choose to give up my preference based on logic, figures, and common sense.

Yes a van, or toaster may kill me. A doctor may too. But thats a risk that on balance makes sense because of the GOOD these things do. A positive balance. Guns are a very negative one.

[Gnomatic]

I like Carl Sagan's "There's a Dragon in my garage" analogy on the existence God.

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[4]) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

[Burgerman]

In other words, if something is not material, has no affect on reality, and is impossible to measure. Then its properties are exactly the same as something that doesent exist at all. (Which is a bit of a clue...)

And if she DID manifest in reality, we can measure it. Which option would you prefer? You cant have that both ways. Does she manifest in reality in any real way? How? If not then she is exactly the same as all non existent things.

When you understand why you dismiss the tooth fairy, or thor, or ra, or the greek gods, then you will understand why I and you should dismiss your god.

[Lord Chatterley]

White vans don't kill over 100 people all by themselves. Are you going to ban vans?

Your argument is flawed. We need vans. And trucks. And planes. And toasters. And ladders. And 1001 other things that can kill. We need doctors and they kill people too. We dont need guns. Other than to defend yourself from guess what... And the figures show that the result of owning one even just for self defence results in you being MORE likely to end up dead.

Thats just thousands of people dead for nothing.

I like the idea of ME owning a gun. Unfortunately if that means the rest of the population most of which are incapable of rational thought, and over emotional, drug adicts, plain evil bastaards, mentally ill delusionalists (probably from you local nut house/church/ilogical centre) ALSO having one, then no thanks. I am safer if they dont! So I choose to give up my preference based on logic, figures, and common sense.

Yes a van, or toaster may kill me. A doctor may too. But thats a risk that on balance makes sense because of the GOOD these things do. A positive balance. Guns are a very negative one.

Americans have the right to bear arms for the same reason we had them in our Bill or Rights since 1693 - for the sake of FREEDOM.

You want to ban them for the sake of safety.

I put freedom above safety.

LC

[Burgerman]

Well the problem is its not black and white but all a matter of degree. And I put my right to be safe, and not worry about the low life that decides to shoot you in a shopping centre or a bar/club/wherever on purpose or in error well above your percieved greater "freedom".

[Lord Chatterley]

Well the problem is its not black and white but all a matter of degree. And I put my right to be safe, and not worry about the low life that decides to shoot you in a shopping centre or a bar/club/wherever on purpose or in error well above your percieved greater "freedom".

In that case, the country will fall into tyranny and the death of millions - not in your lifetime but some decades after when you are dead.

But since you will die anyway why not live for freedom and look with scorn upon tyranny?

LC

[Burgerman]

Because your idea of freedom is exactly the opposite...

In a year there have been 1,333 mass shootings - defined as incidents in which at least four people are injured or killed - eight of them at elementary or high schools. So trumps new measures (more guns in schools) even if it works and it wont, will reduce 1,333 to 1,325. A truly huge waste of time.

In 2015 and 2016, at least one school shooting took place every month, while in 2017 only February passed by without a gun casualty in an elementary or high school.

The 17 victims shot dead yesterday at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, brings the total number of fatalities in American schools in the first six weeks of 2018 to 23.

So far this year, the US has racked up 30 mass shootings and 1,827 uneeded gun-inflicted deaths.

The figures compiled by the GVA include both intentional and accidental shootings, but do not include suicides, which account for an additional 22,000 gun deaths every year. And no, this isnt just another way. Since the suicide rates far exceed other countries without guns.

Americans are more likely to die from a gunshot than from skin cancer or stomach cancer.

The latest classroom massacre in Florida, committed by a disgruntled 19-year-old former student, has re-focused attention not only on the wider debate about gun control, but also the availability of deadly weapons to children and teenagers.

Pew Research data reveals that 46% of gun owners who live with children do not keep their firearms locked. Around 30% said their weapons were kept loaded at all times and stored in an easily accessible location.

The Pew data also lays bare the difficulties facing lawmakers looking to curb gun violence in a bitterly partisan politics environment.

While half of all Americans polled in 2017 agreed that gun violence was a “very big problem” in US society, gun owners and non-gun owners are deeply divided on how to tackle it.

For instance, 80% of non-gun owners were in a favour of a federal registry to track gun sales, a proposal supported by only 54% of gun owners. Meanwhile, the majority of gun owners believe that stricter regulations will not lead to fewer mass shootings. But of course it does in other countries like australia.

Gun control advocates also have to contend with a deep-rooted cultural attachment to personal firearms as a penis extension.

[Gnomatic]

In other words, if something is not material, has no affect on reality, and is impossible to measure. Then its properties are exactly the same as something that doesent exist at all. (Which is a bit of a clue...)

And if she DID manifest in reality, we can measure it. Which option would you prefer? You cant have that both ways. Does she manifest in reality in any real way? How? If not then she is exactly the same as all non existent things.

When you understand why you dismiss the tooth fairy, or thor, or ra, or the greek gods, then you will understand why I and you should dismiss your god.

Its like the Pastafarians of the Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster. No less absurd than the than the fabled religious dogmas much of humanity unfortunately continues to perpetuate.

[Burgerman]

Its like the Pastafarians of the Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I have a T shirt, and am a member. But the religous nuts banging on my door in summer fail to grasp that its the same thing or the significance.

But its the WHY that bewilders me.

I come from a country where the only people with magical god thinking are a few of the very old, or the immigrants from other countries. If you can find a church with windows still in, with doors etc, that still actually gets used, then its usually only a handful of immigrants and old people. Most are now abandoned or sold off to be used for houses or pubs or whatever.

I honestly never met anyone below about 60 that would even give a god a second thought in the normal circles I live in. They dont go around calling themselves athiests as they do in the US. They simply never give it a thought as the standard position is to believe stuff only when adequate evidence shows it to be correct. Non belief in a god, or fairies is just the normal state of affairs. I honestly do not know any religous or supernatural believers at all. Not in school, families, freinds, pubs, work over my lifetime. That includes, things like spirits, ghosts, or any sort of magical woo woo as well as a gods. That kind of magical thinking has practically died out in the UK amongst the majority normal british sane white people. Yet about a third these same people, when asked to fill a form, will still tick the xstian box!

If you ask why, they cant really answer sensibly. You get answers like "I went to a xstian school". Or my family is xstian, even though non actually believe in the supernatural in any way. Or "I was christened". Ask if they have a belief in some kind of god and they look at you like your a nutter. No they plainly do not! Its a leftover like a unused body part a vestigial organ or part https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_vestigiality..

I honestly do not know anyone that has any belief in a supernatural "god". That myth is long gone in the UK for the vast majority of people and seen as stupid. Even by those that claim to be xstians! And the same applies in many other European countries. The modern science and access to the web, is helping it to die in the US and other religous countries at an ever accelerating rate too. Soon enough you will get to a tipping point where those that believe will keep very quiet about it for fear of ridecule by the better educated/enlightened majority. After this it dies fast.

The interet is now where you have easily accessible logical science based answers, and very dificult question that seriously challenge "beliefs". Many US churches are terrified of their kids using the internet and mixing in society. They want to shield them from the reality. Or they know only too well that the end is near for their delusion. Give it say 3 generations and the US will have thrown off its delusions/chains mostly. And use logic and reason and an open mind instead.

[Burgerman]

Why do I hate religion, and all false beliefs? Because they are harmful.

Just watched the news today. The same shit is happening in syria as usual and across the world, and getting worse. Muslims are killing each other and as per usual, its all about wiping out "terrorists" and they are wiping out whole cities with bombs and guns including blowing up and maiming children. Why? They all believe in the same religion and the more extreme ones that do exactly as the religion commands, i.e. murder the others that dont believe as strongly. (And us in the west as we dont believe it at all). The others call those extremist terrorists and then blow them up. Same never ending shit has been happening for 12 CENTURIES everywhere there are muslims. Worldwide. And only wiping out that religion will stop the wars, death and suffering. All the rest and showing their religion "respect" is a waste of time and causes the problem.

Xstians are no better. And even today in the safe modern civilised US,xstians seem to feel the need to hack bits off a perfect healthy newborn baby with a knife to "improve it"... If xstians didnt do this for centuries, and some new religion tried to do this in your country instead you would see it as child abuse and shut it down. And also you then brainwash them while trusting and young with plastic brain, so that they do the same violent cutting up genitals crap to their own kids.

And they are usually kept away from reality and science and taught complete pseudosience bollox instead by their church like creation or that much of science is wrong! So they grow up with damaged minds and a distorted worldview thats damned near impossible to shake off and with a bit of penis cut off without permision. Thats seriously heavy child abuse. In both cases. And yet so many do it in the US that its "allowed" and seen as normal! Yet you would see FEMALE genital mutilation as wrong! Because thats abhorrent right? And yet they cannot see that its the same exact thing.

So this delusion deserves zero "respect" either. We will ignore xstian / jewish religous wars for the moment, like northern ireland etc.