venuzuala...

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venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 28 Apr 2018, 02:15

BBC news:
Has tens of thousands of people about to try and escape Venuzuala as refugees due to starvation and lack of everything needed to live. More than from syria. Caused by? You got it, socialism. Its done its party trick again. It was just a matter of when of course. Pretty amazing for the most oil rich country on the planet! Only socialism is garanteed to do that. Its evil. This is the country held up as a shining example of socialism, actually working, by the UK's idiotic marxist labour party leader jeremy corbyn. What a tit.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby martin007 » 28 Apr 2018, 19:35

Venezuela can explode at any time.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 29 Apr 2018, 00:47

Venuzuala is it terrible trouble. No hospitals have even basic supplies, mass food shortages, empty shelves... No way to pay to keep warm or buy medication or food even if you have the wheelbarrows full of cash to try and pay. Rediculous inflation, in the thousands of percent, nobody works or produces anything. Its just another country, adding to the 70 or so throughout history that already proved the point, that have gone bankrupt.

This is always the end result of socialism. It always fails, and it always ends in massive corruption, death, shortages of everything and especially freedom. After years of poverty in most cases. Yet the modern daft student leaves college or university and fell for the same bullshit they teach in academic establishments the world over. They all love the idea of a fair utopian society. Marxism. Shame it doesent ever work!

Theres thousands right now leaving in any way possible to anywhere they can get in! And the result will be more refugees over the next few years than the middle east.

Venuzuala owes hundreds of billions. And it is about to default on its loans. And is on the verge of total collapse. When it does so, hopefully soon, so that its crazy socialist government can be replaced, the US and EU will quite correctly go after the biggest oil reserves of any country in the world to try to get their money back. Which will also make venuzuala richer too. Provided it grasps that capitalism works! And doesent allow some other socialist retard into power. http://www.dw.com/en/could-there-be-a-v ... a-41384421
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 29 Apr 2018, 01:13

Free market trade, or capitalism if you prefer, was the very cause of the entire industrial revolution. The exact opposite to socialism that actively stamps out any kind of entrapunurial development to make more money to make yourself richer. And its this that helps drive most research or development.

Related is this BBC documentary. "Why the industrial revolution happened here"
Ignoring all the politics above, it is really interesting how and why it happened in the UK and changed the world! Take an hour and relax as you learn a lot!


youtu.be/UM2Aw4kmA0s
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Gnomatic » 29 Apr 2018, 17:43

Bitcoin mining has become popular there. Electricity is subsidized there, and their currency is basically worthless.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economi ... explains-2
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Lord Chatterley » 01 May 2018, 17:03

Coal was used as a fuel by the Ancient Greeks, the Romans and the Ancient Chinese for centuries before the UK.

The difference was the moral, legal and scientific philosophy in the UK protected the principle of individual rights.

Happy May Day!


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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 01 May 2018, 19:11

The difference was the moral, legal and scientific philosophy in the UK protected the principle of individual rights.


You mean capitalism did.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 05 May 2018, 12:10

I come in peace. Just interested in further explanation of your opinions.

Firstly, define capitalism. Define socialism.

In the First World War Russia was defeated. It was unable to compete industrially/economically, and this meant it couldn't compete as a military power.

Within a few years after the revolution and the formation of the USSR it virtually single-handedly defeated Germany, Europe's number 1 industrial power. It went on to become the world's number 2 superpower. How?

China?



Any opinion appreciated, Tremulous Tetra. :-)
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 05 May 2018, 12:22

After the Second World War America produced around half of everything that was produced in the world. If capitalism is so great, why has this diminished to such a massive degree? Why does Britain virtually produce nothing when it used to be the workshop of the world? If you take out the City of London, the UK would fall way down the pecking order of economic powers in the world. again, why if capitalism is so great? And why is China doing so well?
https://www.ft.com/content/9bf532a8-66d ... 589957ada4

Best wishes, Tremulous Tetra. :-)
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 05 May 2018, 18:01

Firstly, define capitalism. Define socialism.


100% capitalism.
Capitalism simply means free trade without government interference or taxation, and certainly not redistribution of wealth. Free trade means free markets means, labour cost, price of services or products are simply based on supply and demand and dictated by only the free market pricing with no government distortions.

100% Socialism,
means that goverments centrally plan everything. Unlike capitalism, it aims to be totalitarian. To control your life. You cannot start, own or run a company or employ labour. You cant decide where to work, what to do, you are told. You cannot develop a car, an iphone, or a drug. Thats for the government to decide. You cannot own property, cars, or your fridge. Everything is controlled by a massive government beurocracy. Theres no free market, no free trade, no self employment, and no freedom or escape. If you want a car, or to move house you add your name to a list. In a decade, you will get what you are given. Theres no competition in the market, so theres no product improvement.

Its important to understand that no fully capitalist or socialist country ever existed. But some lean hevily one way or the other.

Capitalism makes every country that tries it rich.
Socialism has been tried to death for 70 years. Every last time it ends with mass starvation, huge corruption, and well over 100 million deaths through startvation or worse, government hands. Yet theres still thousands of stupid marxists students leaving every college and university with grand ideals about socialism being fair etc year on year.

E.G. The communist Centraly run china (a communist country that lived under a very socialist controlled economic system much like the soviet union did) saw that free market hong kong (still owned by the british) was massively richer and doing remarably well. And that many people went through hell to get to live there because of it. Hong kong was very capitalist. Unlike china, venuzuala, it has zero natural resourses. Ityet was in stark contrast to the rest of china which was pathetically poor, and eating dead babies and roadkill was about the only source of protein in some areas. Not to mention no water, drains, food, transtport, etc. So the communist government did a little experiment or two with capitalism. It goes against a communist natural socialistic leanings. But it works.

So they allowed people to run their own businesses and keep the proceeds, in controlled areas like Shenzhen, Guangdong (if I spelled it correctly) which obviously boomed... Since capitalism does that! So communist china is still missing many human freedoms, as its still state controlled in a massive way. But they are now allowing capitalist economics instead of socialist economics to make them rich fast! And they went from the poorest place on earth to the 2nd richest in 50 years. Now the poor have more too.

Those countries that stick with socialism, have all failed over the last 70 years other than a very few remaining but desperately poor places. Like cuba, or argentina, where they are desperately trying to escape from poverty and no medical care, no food etc right now. The experiment was run. And the results were obvious.

There are NO capitalist countries. And no Socialist countries in reality. All of them have some of both. Places like the US and UK and much of western europe are predominantly capitalist economically. And the former china, and the collapsed soviet union, and east germany, north korea, etc are all examples of predominantly socialist economies.

Taxing companies profits, taxing the rich more heavily, spending a fortune on government agencies ike NASA or the NHS in the UK, are socialist things. They all make a country poorer. Doing the opposite, reducing governments to essentials, leaving businesses and trade to get on with it, deregulating, lowering taxation, and sacking 80% of the government would be capitalist. That makes a country richer. Every time.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 05 May 2018, 18:27

After the Second World War America produced around half of everything that was produced in the world. If capitalism is so great, why has this diminished to such a massive degree?

Not sure its true. Much of the rest of the world developed. And the US has been getting more socialist for many decades. With much more control, legislation on businesses, taxation on businesses and people compared to some of the rest of the world.

Why does Britain virtually produce nothing when it used to be the workshop of the world? If you take out the City of London, the UK would fall way down the pecking order of economic powers in the world. again, why if capitalism is so great? And why is China doing so well?
https://www.ft.com/content/9bf532a8-66d ... 589957ada4

The city business of london is extremely capitalist. So it makes a lot of money by selling services to the world. Why is production of GOODS lower now in the UK? Because of socialist stuff, such as minimum wage, holiday pay, sick pay, maternity leave, etc, no power to hire and fire workers freely without redundancy pay, heavy taxation on business directly and indirectly such as on fuel, etc. And pensions, safety rules and other additional costs etc etc, all of which conspires against businss to make our labour costs and production costs uncompetitive compared to many less developed/socialist countries.

Socialist ideas such as minimum wage. Every time minimum wage is increased for eg, it serves only to put the least advantaged out of a job that can be done cheaper overseas, repaced by a robot, or a different working practice. Or by using oversea suppliers or factories. Thats why socialism doesent work! It serves only to harm those it seeks to help. Our textiles are produced cheaper in india. For eg. Why? No minimum wage, no controls, none of the above costs... And they are desperately poor. So they NEED that low paid work. Or they starve. And frankly we do actually produce a lot of very high technology goods. Where the developing countries cannot compete on price alone. E.G. race car stuff, space sattelites, aircraft engines, thousands of technical solutions.

Why is china doing so well? It embraced CAPITALISM 60 years back, to copy prosperous hong kong which was its model. It went from a typical communist and socialist economic model to and the poorest country, to 2nd richest country in 60 years because of that alone! And why was its growth highest for years? Its easy to improve when you are coming from a desperately poor socialist economic model to begin with. Pretty hard to improve if you are already at the best you can do.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 05 May 2018, 21:01

America's first experiment with Socialism:

After the Pilgrims landed in 1620, they decided that they would plant a community garden and share the fruits and vegetables equally at the end of the season. The idea was that all would work together and share equally at the end of the season. However, no one wanted to work in the gardens. Most were reluctant to do the planting and weed a garden that was not theirs. That first year, the gardens were not well kept and they had poor crops, which led to hunger the next winter. Under this system, by 1623 the colony was facing starvation. It was decided that a new system be used the following year. Each family was given a plot of land to garden in proportion to its size. They would be allowed to keep the fruits and vegetables for themselves.

Governor William Bradford's account. . .

This had very good success, for it made all hands industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been by any means the Governor or any other could use, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave far better content. The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to set corn; which before would allege weakness and inability; whom to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny and oppression.
http://www.culture-war.info/Socialism.html

The lesson here seems to be, when you own it you take care of it. If it belongs to someone else, you won't take interest in it or care for it. But if it is yours to own, you take interest in it and take care of it. The Pilgrims started out with socialism for the first two years but abandoned it in favor for capitalism after two years, which worked much better.

A more personal example of socialism, in a western capitalist country, is this. My carer gets to pay 20% VAT on everything he buys. He also gets to pay 65% tax on the fuel he needs to run his car. He gets to pay 320 a year car tax on top. And when paid, he has 25% of his wages taken at source. So in all, at LEAST 50% of his earnings are taken from him directly. But remember that much more is actually taken. Every product he buys, has been shipped (fuel tax) vehicle taxation, by the manufacturer who also has to pay tax on profits and goods. And who had to pay artificially high wages. So my carer is probably only really seeing about 25% of his actual earnings to spend on goods.

Where does the rest go? Well for one, it pays to house free of charge, non working lifestyle unemployed, drug addicts, drunks, and other of lifes losers to live in a brick built house, with double glazing, fitted kitchen, bathroom, central heating, etc. It not only gives them a free house, as good as my carers own house, for free, but the local authority councils charge for teachers, streets, police, fire, care, etc is voided. He has that paid out free, also from my carers tax too. And whats more the lazy/drunks/addicts/etc all get free money to pay for thier food, bills, clothing, and more. Which is usually just wasted on drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc. THAT is also socialism in action. Why should he have a responsibility to support the losers like these?
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 07 May 2018, 20:28

funkykeyboard wrote:In the First World War Russia was defeated. It was unable to compete industrially/economically, and this meant it couldn't compete as a military power.

Within a few years after the revolution and the formation of the USSR it virtually single-handedly defeated Germany, Europe's number 1 industrial power. It went on to become the world's number 2 superpower. How?
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 07 May 2018, 20:39

In a slave society, the slave is a asset. If you beat him to death, you have lost what you paid for.

In a purely capitalist society, 1 of its great strengths, you buy Labour not the labourer. When you have no need for the Labour, the labourer can die. It's of no concern to you.

You and I would be dead wouldn't we?
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 07 May 2018, 20:42

Yaron seems to accept your definitions"Marxist".
Burgerman wrote:
Firstly, define capitalism. Define socialism.


100% capitalism.
Capitalism simply means free trade without government interference or taxation, and certainly not redistribution of wealth. Free trade means free markets means, labour cost, price of services or products are simply based on supply and demand and dictated by only the free market pricing with no government distortions.

100% Socialism,
means that goverments centrally plan everything. Unlike capitalism, it aims to be totalitarian. To control your life. You cannot start, own or run a company or employ labour. You cant decide where to work, what to do, you are told. You cannot develop a car, an iphone, or a drug. Thats for the government to decide. You cannot own property, cars, or your fridge. Everything is controlled by a massive government beurocracy. Theres no free market, no free trade, no self employment, and no freedom or escape. If you want a car, or to move house you add your name to a list. In a decade, you will get what you are given. Theres no competition in the market, so theres no product improvement.
but Marx and Engels did not define capitalism by a distinction between bureaucracy or individuals having control. For Marx and Engels feudalism was still feudalism whether the church ran it or the King and Lords.Marxism isn't a management analysis, it's a class analysis. It wasn't about state control:

Withering away of the state" is a Marxist concept coined by Friedrich Engels referring to the idea that, with realization of the ideals of socialism, the social institution of a state will eventually become obsolete and disappear, as the society will be able to govern itself without the state ...

Yaron also seems blissfully unaware of the distinction between socialism and communism that Marx and Engels envisioned.

I have no idea who is right about what is best for humanity, but if Yaron is going to attack Marx and Engels, shouldn't he attack what they actually said?
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 07 May 2018, 21:07

the pursuit of happiness Yaron states.this is the big problem. Why the 1% of capitalism, need the coercive state. It's hardwired into our DNA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg

Most studies find more equal societies, are more happy.

And even this 1 finds people preferring unequal societies, still believe there are limits.

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/ ... -societies

People don't mind inequality, if it deserved, but 1% of society now controlling nearly 50% of the world's wealth mainly because of their access to the levers of power?
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 07 May 2018, 21:25

but Marx and Engels did not define capitalism by a distinction between bureaucracy or individuals having control.

Neither do I. And I dont give a crap how they described it!
Capitalism is simple. Its just free trade, free emplyment, freedom to take the profit, freedom to own money, stuff, business, property etc. Capitalism is just leaving people to themselves yto work, trade, etc. Free trade. Own your own stuff! THAT is all it is.

For Marx and Engels feudalism was still feudalism whether the church ran it or the King and Lords.Marxism isn't a management analysis, it's a class analysis. It wasn't about state control:

Marxism is pure socialism. Its total control, zero freedom. And that requires armies of government to organise everything.

Withering away of the state" is a Marxist concept coined by Friedrich Engels referring to the idea that, with realization of the ideals of socialism, the social institution of a state will eventually become obsolete and disappear, as the society will be able to govern itself without the state ...

GOVERN itself... Its TOTAL government! Its also rediculous. And sends everyone hungry.

Yaron also seems blissfully unaware of the distinction between socialism and communism that Marx and Engels envisioned.

Theres no difference in practice. All previous communist governments ran a very socialist economic, totalitarian system. And they are all poor and it ends in mass corruption, mass poverty, zero freedoms, and almost no production. 100 million dead.

I have no idea who is right about what is best for humanity, but if Yaron is going to attack Marx and Engels, shouldn't he attack what they actually said?

As far as I am aware he did.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 07 May 2018, 21:36

forget the debate about global warming, let's just accept its reality hypothetically.

If global warming exists, how can a bunch of individuals each pursuing their own interest deal with it?
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 07 May 2018, 21:47

In a purely capitalist society, 1 of its great strengths, you buy Labour not the labourer. When you have no need for the Labour, the labourer can die. It's of no concern to you.

You and I would be dead wouldn't we?


Again, its the opposite way around. In a capitalist society, the labourer is in demand! Its the socialist countries that put the labourer out of work.

Remember that capitalist countries are the richest. The ones that can AFFORD a support system for the out of work. In the UK, we have a far higher standard of living than any socialist country ever had. So does every predomenantly capitalist country. And a far freer life, with endless protections under law and a long healthy life where there is good medical care, food is plentiful, and even the poor have iphones, flat screen TVs, cars, heated homes, fitted kitchens, double glazing, indoor bathrooms, carpets, etc. Theres never been any communist, or heavily socialist country where thats true! Quite the opposite.

In EVERY case, socialism, weather under a communist system or not, end in completely preventable tragedy. We have a stupid marxist politition, who held venuzuala up a few years ago as a shining example of socialism, that was working. At the time I laughed and said to my ex, until they run out of other peoples money!

Right now as the owner of the worlds largest oil reserves, as well as many other natural resources, they are in endless debt that they cannot hope to pay. Theres no food on the shelves, people are starving, even if they have a wheelbarrow of cash to buy a loaf of bread. The hospitals have no drugs, no power. And so the same old pattern is happening all over again. The deaths, rioting, starvation, and people running away to other countries is just around the corner. It SHOULD be richer than places like Saudi arabia, kuwait, UAE where the cops drive ferraris... But no its beyond broke. Only socialism can do that!!
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 07 May 2018, 21:54

forget the debate about global warming, let's just accept its reality hypothetically.

If global warming exists, how can a bunch of individuals each pursuing their own interest deal with it?


The only reason global warming at this moment in the earths history looks abnormal is because they cherry picked a minute bit of data (time) from the earths real temperature history graph. Because if you look at any other slightly longer period it suddenly looks rediculous.
So not only do I not deny global warming is happening, but I know it is. But thats a different thing to claiming we are the cause. And theres an awful lot of real scientists that do not agree with the IGPCC massaged models.

Have a read of this.
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/warming.pdf

Now, back to your hypothetical, its not possible to deal with it. Since global warming or more correctly climate change has always happened, long before the fleas on the dog thought they could control the dog! Whats more I am yet to be convinced that warmer is worse. Throughout history most of this planed was an ice ball. There are periodic warm periods, where life, both green and animal life flourish. The rest of the time everything pretty much dies away, struggles to live in a narrow band around the equator...
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 21 May 2018, 16:44

it's an absolute fact that Karl Marx was ALWAYS against the state, and called for "workers to have democratic control of the means of production"a completely different thing. And how the "democracy" would formulate was never predetermined. What would be nothing like we have under capitalism in the UK or the US.
Look at the history of China. Always had a very strong state control over the country. Until capitalism, it consistently led the worldin technology. Statism, is not socialism.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 21 May 2018, 16:47

it's an absolute fact that Karl Marx was ALWAYS against the state, and called for "workers to have democratic control of the means of production".
Look at the history of China. Always had a very strong state control over the country. Until capitalism, it consistently led the worldin technology. Statism, is not socialism.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 21 May 2018, 17:11

Its not capitalism though. There was no free trade, no or little ownership of property or business by individuals. And yes it was still socialist.

Capitalism is the thing that stopped them dying with minor infection or rotten teeth or starvation. Capitalism gave them freedom. Choice. And it made the country wealthy on the back of it, allowing people to have a decent standard of living with such things as enough food, power, heat, transport, medical care, education, the ability to afford a safety net for those that couldnt work, Its the thing that made people free. And fed them. And made them live longer, healthier lives.

Look at the history of China. Always had a very strong state control over the country. Until capitalism, it consistently led the worldin technology. Statism, is not socialism.


It had ABSOLUTE control over everything and everyone. Almost zero indiviudual freedoms. And predictably desperately poor. It was a communist dictatorship, and a socialist economy. The only thing it led the world in was totalitarian control, exreme poverty, death, lack of freedom, and mortality.

Sorry. When I grew up china had nothing. Literally eating dead roadkill and dead babies for protein. And no power, no medical care, no clean water, certainly no transport for the masses. As far as technology goes, if they had any, it wasnt obvious! And certainly didnt help them under their system. Or lead the world!
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 21 May 2018, 21:46

Inflation has started to be a little bit of a problem in venuzuala today.

It just reached FORTEEN THOUSAND percent! If you get paid, by the time you get to a shop, its valueless... And theres no food or medication on the shelves anyway.

The new president who got the most votes (!), said today, that they are sticking with socialism. Corbyn in the UK has now added it to the endless list of socialist countries that must have done it "wrong" again...

People trying to escape the country in every direction.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 25 Jun 2018, 14:00

Burgerman wrote:Its not capitalism though. There was no free trade, no or little ownership of property or business by individuals. And yes it was still socialist.

Capitalism is the thing that stopped them dying with minor infection or rotten teeth or starvation. Capitalism gave them freedom. Choice. And it made the country wealthy on the back of it, allowing people to have a decent standard of living with such things as enough food, power, heat, transport, medical care, education, the ability to afford a safety net for those that couldnt work, Its the thing that made people free. And fed them. And made them live longer, healthier lives.

Look at the history of China. Always had a very strong state control over the country. Until capitalism, it consistently led the worldin technology. Statism, is not socialism.


It had ABSOLUTE control over everything and everyone. Almost zero indiviudual freedoms. And predictably desperately poor. It was a communist dictatorship, and a socialist economy. The only thing it led the world in was totalitarian control, exreme poverty, death, lack of freedom, and mortality.

Sorry. When I grew up china had nothing. Literally eating dead roadkill and dead babies for protein. And no power, no medical care, no clean water, certainly no transport for the masses. As far as technology goes, if they had any, it wasnt obvious! And certainly didnt help them under their system. Or lead the world!

1st of all, I've thought a lot about what you said "capitalism has never existed". I think you said something like that. I think you was eluding to the fact the classical economists made about "perfectly competitive economy". And on that point (if I've not misinterpreted you) I think we agree.

I've also moved somewhat to thinking capitalism as 'you' describe it, especially if it was a "perfectly competitive economy", would be much better for society than what we have at present.

There has never been proper capitalist society in its pure form, there has always been monopoly and monopsomy issues in capitalism. Which has got even worse today with the massive concentration of capital that took place over the last 40 years.

Tell me what you think of this billionaire. https://www.facebook.com/unfilteredyaho ... DMzMTIwNg/
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 25 Jun 2018, 14:13

Individuals are irrelivant in the scheme of things. In any system, there are wild aberations. It doesent matter. But I dont do facetube or any social media garbage. I followed the link to a confused page and have no idea what or who you mean?

There has never been proper capitalist society in its pure form, there has always been monopoly and monopsomy issues in capitalism. Which has got even worse today with the massive concentration of capital that took place over the last 40 years.


There has never been pure capitalism. Because capitalism only adresses one thing. Free trade, free employment, free property ownership and all with no government interference other than to protect these rights any you and your property. It doesent adress anything else. All the taxing, and supporting society is socialism, ie wealth transfer. And some of that is also required.The problem is that governments grow bigger and bigger and involve themselves in ever more socialist stuff... As for monopolies then that can be a problem. But if a monopoly was making significant money out of you, then so could any competition in a properly capitalist system. So it would not remain a monopoly for long.

E.G. Musk is now launching rockets for the us government at ONE THIRD the cost of all 6 or 8 other launch companies. If this continues then he will soon be a monopoly. As nobody else will be able to compete. They could, but they dont think well enough, or far enough ahead. And then he can charge what he likes. But if he gets greedy, it leaves room for a competitor to appear. Since theres then enough $$$ in it... Capitalism, if no government interferes, is a self balancing system that makes better products, cheaper for all, and drags the living standards higher. Socialism, does the opposite.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby funkykeyboard » 25 Jun 2018, 14:22

Burgerman wrote:Its not capitalism though. There was no free trade, no or little ownership of property or business by individuals. And yes it was still socialist.

Capitalism is the thing that stopped them dying with minor infection or rotten teeth or starvation. Capitalism gave them freedom. Choice. And it made the country wealthy on the back of it, allowing people to have a decent standard of living with such things as enough food, power, heat, transport, medical care, education, the ability to afford a safety net for those that couldnt work, Its the thing that made people free. And fed them. And made them live longer, healthier lives.

Look at the history of China. Always had a very strong state control over the country. Until capitalism, it consistently led the worldin technology. Statism, is not socialism.


It had ABSOLUTE control over everything and everyone. Almost zero indiviudual freedoms. And predictably desperately poor. It was a communist dictatorship, and a socialist economy. The only thing it led the world in was totalitarian control, exreme poverty, death, lack of freedom, and mortality.

Sorry. When I grew up china had nothing. Literally eating dead roadkill and dead babies for protein. And no power, no medical care, no clean water, certainly no transport for the masses. As far as technology goes, if they had any, it wasnt obvious! And certainly didnt help them under their system. Or lead the world!

secondly mate, I wasn't talking about the China of communism. I was talking about ancient China. The China of the great wall, the inventor of so much technology that slowly spread to the west.

the point I'm making is, things are not so black and white. The state, has been the shoulders upon which capitalism has stood. Without the state Chinese, Roman, Egyptian, feudal, et cetera et cetera capitalism could never have been built.

Without doubt, CAPITALISM IS the greatest SYSTEM ever produced by human beings. Karl Marx fully acknowledged that capitalism is the greatest social system ever. However, even within capitalism. Russia and Germany initiated "state capitalism". This is where to some degree in the case of Germany and later Britain, America, Japan, throughout the world after the Second World War, the private sector still played the productive role, but capital investment was massively directed by the state. The growth in "state capitalism" where the state directed and massively effected investment by redistribution of wealth from the capitalists into job creation, Keynesianism, correlates directly with the greatest sustained boom in capitalist history, the war and post-war boom.this is undeniable. Also the reversal of Keynesianism since 1979 seen a massive fall in the rate of growth of the global economy, and a more pronounced boom and slump cycle.

Marx did not define capitalism the same way you do "free trade". So you and him talking about different things.

Marx originally studied under Hegel. Hegel's objective was to understand the evolution of social society from hunter gatherer to the capitalism he lived in, which she saw as the pinnacle and end achievement of human society. Marx having studied Hegel, turned his ideas on dialectics on their head into dialectical materialism. Marx saw social evolution in terms of defining sets of social relations. The relationships of various groups to each other in one societyi.e. feudalism, distinguished that society from the social relationships various groups participated in in another former societyi.e. capitalism.there was free trade in feudalism. There is free trade in capitalism. FOR Marx free trade was not the issue, it was people's relationships to the means of production that distinguish the 2.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 25 Jun 2018, 14:30

Sounds like you swallowed a load of edu establishment socialist books.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 25 Jun 2018, 14:35

capitalism
ˈkapɪt(ə)lɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: capitalism

an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
"an era of free-market capitalism"
synonyms: private enterprise, free enterprise, private ownership, privatized industries, the free market, individualism; laissez-faire


Where to find this?
Rich countries mostly... Where the poor, disabled, long term out of work have wide screen TVs, houses, cars, food, heat, medical care , iphones... And where the majority of modern scientific advances and discoveries were/are made.

socialism
ˈsəʊʃəlɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: socialism

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
synonyms: leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More
communism, Bolshevism;
radicalism, militancy;
progressivism, social democracy;
labourism;
Marxism, Leninism, Marxism–Leninism, neo-Marxism, Trotskyism, Maoism
antonyms: conservatism
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
synonyms: leftism, Fabianism, syndicalism, consumer socialism, utopian socialism, welfarism; More
communism, Bolshevism;
radicalism, militancy;
progressivism, social democracy;
labourism;
Marxism, Leninism, Marxism–Leninism, neo-Marxism, Trotskyism, Maoism
antonyms: conservatism
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.


Where to find this?
Very few places now. Most went bankrupt or starved to death over the last 70 years. Theres a few struggling on in diluted form, with some small business under the counter capitalism so they dont starve like cuba, and some that are now eating from bins, no heat in spite of having the largest oil reserves on the planet, no drugs, and suffereing tens of thousands of percent inflation like venuzuala.
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Re: venuzuala...

Postby Burgerman » 25 Jun 2018, 14:53

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