History does tend to repeat itself

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Re: History does tend to repeat itself

Postby Burgerman » 24 May 2018, 14:27

House Speaker Paul Ryan visited a Harley plant in Wisconsin in September and said, “Tax reform can put American manufacturers and American companies like Harley-Davidson on a much better footing to compete in the global economy and keep jobs in America.”

Thats true. Long term, but alone while it HELPS it doesent go far enough. In the US an many western rich countries, we have passed (socialist) rules and regulations to make any business non competitive. Imagine trying to compete with 3rd world countries that do not have such "protections" as minimum wage, which pushes up labour costs, and tax paid, across the board. And maternity pay, restricted practices and hours, unions, making businesses employ several people to do the job of one, holiday pay, redundancy pay, medical insurance in the US, sick pay, etc . And remember that these businesses have to buy services, sub assemblies, vehicles, fuel, property like factories, machinery, and all of this is at the same overly inflated price because of these unions, and worker safeguards, and privelidges. So how can the business compete with the other 200 countries on equal terms? The answer is that they cannot. So lowering corp tax, is but a small part of it.

Many Harley-Davidson workers wondered if the tax cut would trickle down to help employees. But a recent CNBC survey found that only 10 companies in the S&P 100 say they have specific plans to use the savings to boost worker pay.

That is absolutely NOT how so called trickle down is supposed to work!!!
The udea being, and absolutely shown to work, is that anything you do to help a business allows it to grow. To produce more. To increase efficiency, to expand, sell more. So making the GDP higher, the country richer, and the DEMAND for labour higher. The demand for labour, esp skilled labour becomes more soufgt after, so wages rise to aqquire the workers. It also results in lower prices for everything you buy, and increases standards of living. It isnt "handed back" as a wage increase! A wage is a MARKET VALUE. Thousands of unemployed? Labour is cheap (low wages). Labour short supply, means the pressure to increase the wage goes up! Supply and demand.

Workers were taken aback by the decision to close the plant. “You could see it on everybody’s faces, just shock and awe,” recalls Primeaux. “It was like I was in a bad dream, just stuck in it.”

See above...

Harley is also building a new plant in Thailand. However the company maintains that the Bangkok plant is “separate and unrelated” to the decision to close the Kansas City plant, according to Michael Pflughoeft, a spokesman for Harley-Davidson.

See above...

The company calls the closing of the Kansas City plant a tough decision but says domestic sales are down and it needed to “address the excess capacity in the U.S.”

See above...

But some Harley employees in Kansas City believe that their plant was closed to make money for the Bangkok one.

Thats because he doesent get basic economics... He is basically over valued his labour through interference from government. If capitalism was allowed free trade of labour and trade then there would be more harley plants in the US not less...

“They are sending our jobs overseas. Absolutely,” said Rick Pence, a machine repairman in the maintenance department.

See above... Of course they are.

Kevin Amos, a union president at Harley who has worked there for 17 years, said he asked company executives multiple times what it would take to keep the company in Missouri and was under the impression that workers were doing everything to ensure that the company stayed.

UNIONS are part of the problem. They keep on shooting themselves in the foot. They keep on making themselves poorer and getting plants shut, or moved overseas, which makes them and the country poorer. And like all socialists they just dont understand why.
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Re: History does tend to repeat itself

Postby sacharlie » 24 May 2018, 15:07

Burgerman wrote:Imagine...And maternity pay, restricted practices and hours, unions, making businesses employ several people to do the job of one, holiday pay, redundancy pay, medical insurance in the US, sick pay, etc .



Yes life can be wonderful!
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Re: History does tend to repeat itself

Postby LROBBINS » 24 May 2018, 16:10

Obviously we should re-introduce slavery, child labor etc. to keep labor costs down.
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Re: History does tend to repeat itself

Postby Burgerman » 24 May 2018, 17:47

Thats not what I said.
Obviously not.
Those are moral issues, and not related to free markets or government controlled markets/wages/wealth redistribution. Which we know actually causes the opposite thing you are trying to fix!

Free market economies become richer, and the more free, the more capitalist it is the better it does. But to make money a business needs to employ people. Thats the point. It causes employment. More employment = more demand for workers. That drives wages up. E.G. If I need a programmer, and theres 10 other growing successful companies that do too. And 5 programmers remaining on the job market, they get to ask their own price. ALL programmers have the market to themselves. That works for laborours, factory workers, or rocket scientists. Ask musk what he pays to steal engineers from other businesses...

Its a balance for pay v skills. and pay v labour. So a capitalist society does the opposite of controlled one. It gets richer, expands, needs more employees, pays more, and increases the standard of living for all. The more capitalist a country is, the richer it becomes in time. The mored socialist and protective it becomes, which may seem like a good idea for workers, the more of them end up out of work, or working for less as they are competing for jobs instead of the other way around sionce the company cant compete, grow, and employ or make money. And the more socialist a country becomes economically the poorer it ends up. Really socialist ones, always go bankrupt every last single time. Socialism is evil. It removes people freedoms and makes them suffer. It sosent matter how much redistribution of wealth or government control they add, it just ends up without food, or anything else. Given time. EVERY time.

Me: Imagine...And maternity pay, restricted practices and hours, unions, making businesses employ several people to do the job of one, holiday pay, redundancy pay, medical insurance in the US, sick pay, etc .

SA Communist: Yes life can be wonderful!


Why do you think the US is the richest country in the world, and the most capitalist one too: And why do you think the opposite is true of every socialist country in history, where they have a shit load of workers "rights" but no productivity? Or food. Or anything else? 200 million dead over the last 50 years through murder by corrupt socialist regimes, but mostly through p;overty and lack of food. You can have as many workers rights, you can overpay them as much as you want, by taking from the top. And this is ALWAYS the result. And every last time they blame everything but themselves or socialism. Or they say it wasnt done "right" again! That boat sailed and sunk.

For eg, minimum wage. All that does, is to price the least capable out of the job market. Eventually.
Jobs get replaced by different working methods, machines, farmed out to overseas factories, etc. Net result of the free market distortion? My neibur who is a little slow lost his job at a car wash. So did 5 others. They bought a machine. The young glass collectors in my hotel, fired and the waitresses given an extra duty. You can only pay what a job is worth. Or you price yourself out of business.
Artificial wealth redistribution, such as this, always causes less gdp and hurts the poor the most. Especially long term as society can no longer afford the support or gov benefits, or help. And prices of goods rise. The eventual extreme result can be seen in any x socialist country. Or the few current ones remaining. Take a look at venuzuala, with 14,000% inflation and no food for eg.
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Re: History does tend to repeat itself

Postby sacharlie » 24 May 2018, 22:13

Burgerman wrote:
Me: Imagine...And maternity pay, restricted practices and hours, unions, making businesses employ several people to do the job of one, holiday pay, redundancy pay, medical insurance in the US, sick pay, etc .

SA Communist: Yes life can be wonderful!


Why do you think the US is the richest country in the world, and the most capitalist one too: And why do you think the opposite is true of every socialist country in history,


LOL!

Are you really asking questions or making statements?

Here is one for you! Are you willing to give up your NHS? YOU have that we don't...talk is CHEAP. Maybe you should give up yours in protest to push your country to be more capitalist.

Oh and as to your "opposite is true of every sccialist country" is nothing more than your TRUMP STYLE of pointless apples and oranges reasoning.

You would make a good republican over here. :roll:
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Re: History does tend to repeat itself

Postby Burgerman » 24 May 2018, 22:40

Here is one for you! Are you willing to give up your NHS? YOU have that we don't...


You are welcome to it.
The typical socialist medical system. It wastes at least half the money it gets. For EG I have TWO brand new (and unwanted) patient lifts, in my front room. The first one was ordered by them, incorrectly (too low/short) the 2nd one was OK, but I havent used one in 18 years, and already had one!!! So now I got 3... The 2 new ones are powered. And are on service contracts, and checked every 6 weeks by an engineer. And I did everything possible to refuse them. I just wanted a sling! Approx waste? 3k?? Plus god knows how much in meetings, assessements at my home where I kept telling them not to wast the money. And thats just this year and just me. So far. How many examples of socialist inneficiency would you like? The working man or business has to PAY for this stupidity. And that costs the countries wealth. Its one example of how socialism is bad. Good job its only the NHS and the also wasteful benefits system.

And I cant even get a doctor appointment if they eventually answer the phone you get an APPOINTMENT to call back. And that may get you an appointment in 2 weeks if they cant fob you off with some district nurse. And people are dying on trollies in corridors after inattention for days. And the emergency room can have 20 hour wait times FREQUENTLY just to see someone and thats not just here thats accross the country. Its hopeless. Because like anything socialist, its not their money, and its not a business. So they do not care about cost and are hopelessely disorganised. They cant afford to pay enough staff, because I have 3 hoists. Operations routiunely cancelled several times to be booked in 3 months later. If they remember.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... heresa-may
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42572116


Many of those that can afford to be ripped off by the gov to pay for this massive waste, and go private do so regularly in order to get treatment in a sensible timeframe and in a safe envoirement. . Or they pay out ofv pocket and go to the US..
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Re: History does tend to repeat itself

Postby Burgerman » 24 May 2018, 22:41

Oh and as to your "opposite is true of every sccialist country" is nothing more than your TRUMP STYLE of pointless apples and oranges reasoning.


No, it is not. + Its demonstrably true, in every case.
Socialism is all the stuff you think is a good idea that causes lower living standards at very least. And its the exact opposite of capitalism, which actually works every time!

Every country is a mix of both today.
The ones that interfere the least with free trade, i.e. capitalism, and have a small government that do a simple job, like protectiung your rights, a safety nnet for those that require it, property, safety police and forces etc ONLY are the ones that get richer.

The ones that are the most socialist, with endlessregulation, endless laws, endless interference and market distortiuons, endless restrictions, far too many rights for workers, high minimum wage levels, state ownership of businesses, etc especially if taken to the levels we see in the likes of east germany, north korea, venuzuala, the whole soviet union, pre capitalist china, are always the poorest.

EVERY time. Worse as history shows, it normally ends up as a dictatorship, corrupt in a way no capitalist system could be, and totalitarian, and many deaths, no freedons, and massive poverty and mysery if its allowed to continue long enough. Theres a reason for all the poverty in venuzuala, and in peorto-rico even. Why do they still have no power? Basically they were already broke with ruined infrastructure before the storms (have a guess why? They already had no way to pay back debt, or even to continue properly. And why do you suppose theres all the poverty in Cuba? And dont give me the embargo bullshit. They have 200 countries to trade with. The only thing that was keeping them afloat was capitalist small business allowed descretely by the previous leader which is currently being stopped since its against the idealism of socialism (remember totalitariean? No freedoms? Hopeless ineficiency? And tourism also brings them money. All socialist economies are desperately poor or much worse till they eventually collapse or overthrow their government..
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