Pat, The peoples vote!

[Burgerman]

I accept that we are leaving what I can't accept is the loss of human rights because of the "out means out" from those too stupid to understand how the Council of Europe is not part of the EU. Ignorant fools throwing away rights that protect many disabled people.

I am not ignorant. We were the ones that fought for those rights. Our politicians will have to keep them regardless, or be voted out. Or not. Depends on OUR choice as it should do, not some bureaucrats in Brussels. Stop panicking. We will keep everything we currently have, and change and increase or decrease AS WE CHOOSE later.

I'd say that I had a greater understanding than the vast majority of Leave voters in that respect! I also understand the "trivialities" that need to be resolved prior to us leaving. Not resolving the issues linked to leaving like the position of EU citizens in the UK will cause problems, we need clear policies and legislation so that they know where they stand. 2 years on it has not been thought about if we leave without a deal and by the time they do it'll be 2 more years. We've wasted 2 years because the Tories can't sort themselves out never mind the EU.

Theres nothing to sort out. When you leave the golf club, thats it. You dont keep using the green. The 2 years has been those that want to stay in, trying to negotiate some deal where we are basically still in, but pretending to be out. So called soft brexit. Really means part brexit. And the EU golf club is quite rightly baffled. So am I. We are telling them we are leaving. But still trying to stay partly in and use the golf cart and the bar, which is not what leave means...

Take a look at the wealth of those countries we could do trade deals with other than the US and Japan, both of whom will have a trade deal in the near future none come anywhere near the potential of the European countries that we currently trade with. Other than China but that would be a one sided deal. I've said a number of times that we should of pushed for a Canada style free trade deal.

Wrong. The EU sells us more than we sell them. They will be the net losers. And the rest of the world has massively more trade than the EU. 97% of trade is not in the EU!!! Whats more the countries with less wealth are DEVELOPING countries, and their demand for goods and services is growing where the EU market is shrinking. We can be supplying them with industrial plants, services, and more because they dont know how. A much more interesting market than the EU.
I might add... The richest countries in the world are NOT in the EU. And have no trade deals with it.
The richest countries per capita in Europe are also NOT IN THE EU!!!

And as I have said many times ECONOMICS was not the reason for the LEAVE vote. I and most like me DO NOT CARE if we are economically weaker (we wont be and will be better off out after a few years anyway) because we already had all those warnings. And VOTED LEAVE ANYWAY!!! And WON. Its not about economics. It never was.

[MichaelB]

Oh jeez, It is too late the Tories have already started removing them!, https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 62981.html They had it as a policy a few years ago but backed off, Brexit was all they needed knowing that the majority wouldn't understand EU and Council of Europe and just want out. As I said relying upon ignorance and they were right, out means out with no idea what it actually means.

There are things to sort, we have EU citizens here and their status needs to be legally confirmed, that requires a definition of who qualifies and legislation. Many are in lower paid jobs and don't qualify under existing rules, we need to look at those rules and, if we want those workers, amend to allow them to stay. Health care, education etv. All of this no deal legislation should have been done from the start and publicly so the EU would see that we didn't need a deal.

You are correct, the EU exports to us and we should of used that negotiating, pushed for a free trade agreement which works both ways and with the EU knowing that we weren't scared as we had no deal plans ready. We were in a potentially strong position but instead rolled over, promised £39bn, gave in on everything. Unsurprising when the Brexit minister doesn't understand the importance of Dover/Calais trade. We were in a strong position but with clowns like Davis and Raab destined to fail.

Economics are important, it is not just numbers but people's jobs, I can't recall anyone agreeing to people losing jobs. There should be no need if we were better at negotiating. Which kind of shows what we would be like trying to negotiate trade deals.

Using your golf club analogy, we joined a club 40 years ago, the rules changed but we kept playing there until we decided to stop playing golf. Over those 40 years we met other members found that we could help each other and bought and sold goods and services at a discount and little paperwork. As we leave why can't we continue to buy and sell to each other?, we'd all enjoyed good years and there is no need for it to end just because we stop playing golf there.

[Burgerman]

As we leave why can't we continue to buy and sell to each other?

The EU club, dont want to allow it. Why? Because they are no longer a trading block, but a bunch of political elites that want a united states of europe. Only much much less accountable, by stealth against the will of the club members, and they want our 20 billion a year to help prop up the poor countries because on top of everything the whole setup is socialist. So they are punishing us because they are sulking. And their "project" is failing across the EU because its members didn't ask for or ever want it.

Eventually they will have to agree some easy trade deal, once we LEAVE and they realise we are their biggest trading partner. Remember they sell US more than we sell them. Because their businesses and economies will suffer. In any case the EU will not continue in its current form, because most of its PEOPLE dont want it

[MichaelB]

As we leave why can't we continue to buy and sell to each other?

The EU club, dont want to allow it. Why? Because they are no longer a trading block, but a bunch of political elites that want a united states of europe. Only much much less accountable, by stealth against the will of the club members, and they want our 20 billion a year to help prop up the poor countries because on top of everything the whole setup is socialist. So they are punishing us because they are sulking. And their "project" is failing across the EU because its members didn't ask for or ever want it.

Eventually they will have to agree some easy trade deal, once we LEAVE and they realise we are their biggest trading partner. Remember they sell US more than we sell them. Because their businesses and economies will suffer. In any case the EU will not continue in its current form, because most of its PEOPLE dont want it

One of the points of any negotiations should have been that they would end up punishing themselves. Make it clear what they were losing. It was easy to see what their tactics would be so you have to show that you can live with no deal, the threat of no deal was all they had.

You have to look at the way the EU agrees policy, the European Commission produces policy and potential rules, each country has one commissioner typically not elected just appointment by government. When people say unelected bureaucrats he is the only one. The policy then goes to the EU Parliament where it is voted on by MEP's and if passed becomes a rule or law. We had the opportunity to have a say but elected MEP's who just wanted Leave, if we had MEP's who attended and would challenge things might of been different. Possibility not but we'll never know. The most likely catalyst for the EU failing will be financial, countries can't control their finances because of the shared currency, Greece has come close, Italy now under pressure. People will see that you have to be in control of your own budgets not governed by the ECB. It might take a few years though...

[Burgerman]

I give it 10 at best. It will collapse for two simple reasons.

Only a handful of elites want a big communistic NON DEMOCRATIC centrally controlled superstate comprising of linked ever growing poorer and poorer countries. That is NOT what any of them signed up to or ever asked for. And when I say non democratic, I mean that other than non elected bureaucrats, even the countries that do vote, get made to vote again. And again till they are blackmailed into giving the correct answer. So democratic it is not.

We all watched the socialist USSR, and more than 25 other socialist countries starve, go bust, suffer hundreds of millions of dead people, with no freedom to help themselves out of ever increasing poverty and no way out. Just as socialism is destroying and causing mass suffering under chavez and that bus driver that carries on his work... All of it finally collapsed. They discovered that it didn't work. Tha evil experiment has been tested to death quite literally. Yet still the marxists think its a good idea!!! So why on earth do we want to be part of a new socialist centrally controlled and centrally planned superstate?

If it was a simple trade agreement, and between the 5 or 6 richest countries in Europe, or anywhere, then yes its fine. As long as they dont do what every club committee always does and start adding RULES and other bullshit. For E.G. STOPPING members doing other trade deals. Immigration rules. Or telling us what we are " allowed" to do. THAT has nothing to do with external countries! So any kind of TRADE ONLY deals that are helpful, why not. If the EU are too stupid to do that THEY will lose out more than we will. But thats their choice. We should have gone no deal, the day after the referendum. And then spent the last 2 years making WORKABLE trade deals if they wanted to do so. Which is what I expected to happen, but the remainer media, politicians, have been trying to prevent that for years. I think they are about to get a very rude awakening if they dont get us out, properly and soon. And if that means a border between NI and Ireland, as it SHOULD with two separate countries, then good. Or the migrants at Calais will just come in via ireland...

[MichaelB]

If you want out you had better start a new political party. It is now inconceivable that May will get her plan through the commons and there will almost certainly be a further delay as MP's prevent a no deal exit. If we do have another general election which is highly likely you will need a new party to deliver the Brexit you want. That isn't going to happen and you will spend years crying we won with nothing you can do to make it happen. None of the current parties have the will to deliver it, the only saviour might be the EU refusing to extend Article 50 which would be an amusing scenario. Or they have another referendum with a Remain option. You couldn't make this farce up!

[Burgerman]

Yes I could. And since it was obvious that none of the main parties or the media wanted out, I absolutely expected this farce. May losing her majority on purpose, and all the negativity and bullshit negotiating nothing. All planned to drag iut out as long as possible to get to remain one way or another. It was obvious that they were trying to reverse the vote 2 years ago.

[MichaelB]

I guess that all you won was the booby prize but didn't even get the boobs. I'm going to start the Apathy Party for those disillusioned with the current options.

[Burgerman]

Its not over yet. The EU wont exist in a decade.

[MichaelB]

Its not over yet. The EU wont exist in a decade.

I said straight after the vote that I wouldn't live to see it.

[FourLions]

Thanks matey everything said is so true