Disability and poverty

[Burgerman]

http://npi.org.uk/files/7414/7087/2444/ ... _FINAL.pdf

Above is the summary of the latest independent report on disability and poverty. Take a few mins to read it.

How does this sound to you?
Do you think that the gov gives you enough?
Do you think that disability really has high barriers to earning money?
Or is the poverty/living comfortably mostly down to life choices?

[MichaelB]

Always a difficult one as so much depends upon the age you become disabled. Also whether you work in a job that involves manual work or have skills that aren't impacted by your disability. Throw in how much you have saved, home ownership etc and no 2 people will be alike other than they are disabled.

Other than PIP I have only had a few weeks ESA, given £73pw which evidently was contributions related, years prior to accident I was paying £4.5-£5k in NI. Soon realised that I would be in poverty if I tried to live off that! Only way out was to work, setup my own business and went looking for work, which I found. 4 years on I don't earn a lot but with no expensive car/motorbike hobby enough to balance the books. And avoiding poverty.

Obviously marital status comes into it and my wife decided to go back to university but we managed to survive the 3 years without bankruptcy She now has a job so things are a bit better plus we are used to living on a lower income.

I've been lucky to get through it financially not everyone can do that but it is because I make the effort to work, not easy paralysed from the neck down and breathing via a ventilator and the medical problems that go with it. Can't understand anyone who is struggling financially not working.

As I said everyone is different and you can't expect the state to provide everything, I know that I can't live on ESA and don't qualify for any other benefit, penalised for making the mistake of saving and planning ahead. All I can do is move money into a trust fund if I want to qualify. Not my way of doing things so I guess that I will have to look after myself. Hopefully we can get by and avoid poverty, I don't have a very long life expectancy and probably won't reach state pension age so not too long for savings to last. If it reached the point where we struggled for food and couldn't afford to keep the heating on I'd ask for the vent switched off, I want to live not exist.

[Burgerman]

Well even after all your savings have gone. I wouldn't worry. The gov handouts are plenty to live on if you know how to make sensible decisions about finances.

All those that are resorting to food banks, and cant pay the rent are the ones that dont make good life decisions. Theres no reason for that.

Now I dont do hols, but do look after may house, decorate as needed, pay gardeners, cleaners, polishers!, and I am OCD so its got to be right. For EG I just bought a dryer and 2 washing machines all in matching colour and style/brand as it looks right. I only needed a washing machine really, my dryer has been faulty for years but still worked in spite of its issues. Likewise, I had a leak. But was insured. So when they replaced the living room carpet, and decorations, I did the whole downstairs as well in one go so it all matched and was new. And I build chairs, buy clothes, , vehicles, food, and fancy computers. And 2x OLED TVs...

So the gov handouts are adequate IF you know how to run your life without hemorrhaging money on credit, wasteful stuff like unnecessary insurances, extravagant eating out, etc. I dont mind spending on things that save me money long term. E.G. double glazing and plastic cladding so no more external paintwork, lower heating bills. Or solar panels (the cheap DIY way) as it saves in future. And I buy things that dont have a sell by date in huge cheap bulk and store in the garage. E.G washing up liquid, soap powder, bog roll (by the 230 roll pallet) etc etc. And I save when possible.

I find it hard to understand quite what it would take to be homeless or cannot afford food, unless theres more going on than meets the eye.

I took time to speak to a bunch of homeless rough sleepers in my town a few years back. They were trying to sell me the big issue rag. So I ask WHY they were homeless, if the gov can provide both benefit money, housing benefit money for rent etc. They all said the same thing. They spent their money on gamboling, drugs, alcohol, debts, cigarettes and worse. And didn't pay the rent. You can argue its not their fault. But it is. And giving them moire £ doesn't fix anything. The disabled that live in super expensive London, or other expensive city when they can go elsewhere, where its cheaper to live. Why should the taxpayer pay them more (and they already do) to live in a big city when they most cant afford that themselves?

My house for eg, is the same £ as a one bed flat in the good bits of London. Where the out of work, low paid, disabled and mostly immigrants CHOOSE to live and refuse to move. No wonder they eat from food banks.

[MichaelB]

We have managed so far on a substantially reduced income, no 911 or Ducatis to run, paid mortgage off so less monthly outgoings and sensible spending. Some costs we can't control easily, can't regulate my body temperature so house can be 30º at times, 24/7 carers so heat and lights are on all the time. Mattress, vents, humidifier all running non stop eating electric. Can't reduce those any further.

The concern that I have is not knowing what I could get, my ESA experience was scary to think I was expected to run our home, pay mortgage etc on £73pw. I could of not paid the mortgage, been evicted and applied for social housing with rent paid which is crazy. The benefit system is a challenge to find what you can benefit from I'm possibly not doing it right not moving money into a trust fund and still working.

I really need to work out what the minimum we can live on is, we could probably cut back further but I want to be comfortable doing what I want before the end.

[Burgerman]

Understood.

You may be worrying overmuch though.

You should get roughly the same as me.
With care allowance, mobility allowance and with severe disability allowance, as well as PIP or whatever its called this week, you will get (once you are down to about 6k in savings) the same as I do, So I suggest you do!

680 monthly for the above.
And 380 twice a month PIP or whatever its called? With the oddments knocked off rounded up/down. around 1380.
Then I pay some towards my care. Around 300. But I doubt you will pay that because disability related expenses.

If you can do the math and document it, such as extra power needed, or extra redecoration, repairs - anything caused by disability such as paintwork or wear and tear due to carers, breakages, etc is allowed as an expense. Any care YOU pay for, also allowed. And gardening, cleaning, etc is also allowed to be claimed against that. So you large power bill for eg, or other expenses that are disability related should not be a problem. Also free chairs, prescriptions, discount on electricity/gas, cold weather payments, free house insulation, free high efficiency boilers, free wall insulation, free or subsidized double glazing, free or subsidized modification to your home as needed for disability, etc.

[shirley_hkg]

Problem here is subsidy overweights the starting salary of a decent blue collar .

[Burgerman]

Subsidy?

[Burgerman]

Big fuss about black people being both 4 times more likely to be sectioned and detained than white from mental illness. Is that fair? And also 4x more likely to be homeless, or living in poverty if disabled than white. BBC news just now. Is that the fault of the state? Or just one of those things that hasnt got a fix? Because it must be fixed. Mental illness and drug miss-use is blamed for most of the black knife crime and deaths that plague london. Because that affects everyone.

[MichaelB]

I can't get anything other than both parts of PIP and the Motability part goes to my new van. It leaves about £300 pm. I've tried online benefit calculators and don't qualify for anything. Don't pay for any care, I qualify for NHS Continuing Health Care that should always be the case, I'm not suddenly going to breathe again and will always need someone to fix the vent if it fails.

Get no help with any of the other things that you mention, had to pay for every house modification ourselves. All I do get is free prescriptions.

I happily paid tax but now see an unfair system that penalises people like me who work and save.

[Burgerman]

now see an unfair system that penalises people like me who work and save.

Thats socialism for you. And exactly why I no longer do either of those things. Thats why socialism doesn't work.

[MichaelB]

I'm too used to supporting myself, never known anything different and won't stop now. If I can work given my level of disability there ain't many reasons others can't do the same. The problem isn't socialism it is those who think that they are entitled to an easy life. Obviously we should take care of those who can't manage I just hope that when I can't work my situation getting benefits changes.

[Burgerman]

No. Working makes me poorer! Saving and trying to look after yourself does the same. So why would I do that now, even if I could from my bed? And thats the problem of socialism.

It is effectively stopping many people trying to help themselves as it punishes those like you that do. This means less production, more taxation, and society gets poorer over time. Thats whats happened to France year on year. So socialist is it, that now the average worker cannot afford the load because instead of a stronger richer country they have a much poorer one. The extra few cents on fuel is the straw that broke the camels back. Macron is a centre left guy, but even he recognizes this extreme socialist french system is the problem, hence his labour and benefit reforms. Its also what happened to Venezuela, only they are even further down the line... The poorer they got, the more tax they needed to support the masses... And the poorer they get.

[MichaelB]

I guess that it comes down to what individuals consider is acceptable to them. Even if benefits gave me more than working I would still work if I could and earn a living, or enough to live on anyway. Doing that I save the government money and pay tax, double win for them! Maybe one day it will change and I won't be in that position, it would be nice to think that I would get the help I need but somehow I can't see it.

It is kind of perverse that I as a socialist get little from the state and you as anti socialist can get from it. Probably demonstrating just how screwed it is.

[Burgerman]

Yes. Socialism is VERY screwed. You just demonstrated a simple reason why. It removes the drive to produce, earn, work.If I try that I cant pay my bills.

Well thats why socialism is always damaging to any economy, which is obvious and has been tested to death. You are not "saving the government money" you are saving the people money. You are reducing the tax bill. And are productive. And because I cant really work from my bed... I used to do some work for the first few years after my accident. But it became too complicated, and was causing me sores, and making me poorer due to the ridiculous socialist system that targets all those that try to earn some to help themselves. Which is why theres armies of lifestyle benefits people and disabled that will never work. They cant afford to do so. Socialism, great no?

Anyway I am not TOTALLY against all socialist stuff. I think its absolutely fair to have a sensible safety net to protect the disabled, and those that end up in a situation that means they cannot help themselves. ONLY. Other than this they should keep government OUT of things and interfere as little as possible. Then the country gets rich enough to afford to help the unfortunate.

Where I have a problem is when it means that countless lazy generations of lifestyle unemployed, breeding like rabbits, living in social housing, getting free housing, free money, free medical care, free child support, free education for their children, free drugs, free everything all paid for by those like you that work and pay tax. My carers pay into the system, to live a harder life with less, than the hordes living on the huge council estates around here. Also endless tony blair immigrants in massive numbers that do not integrate, and turn our cities and towns into violent no go areas of poverty and drugs, crime and every other social problem imaginable. Even the murders and stabbings in the black areas of London or the gang rapes of teenage girls in every large muslim town. Most of those are all living off the back of working people and making the country worse. And poorer. And anything that is wealth redistribution, always fails to help those that it claims to be helping, and makes the whole country poorer in the process. Thats socialism for you. Check out corbyns favorite Venezuela, which he is very quiet about now!

[MichaelB]

I couldn't afford to live without a wage. I wasn't entitled to any benefits other than £73pw ESA. Stupidly sold Porsche and Ducatis and saved the cash, reasonable amount of savings and that was it, can't get anything back from the years of contributions. Unless I blow my savings and stop work not really an option given the uncertainty of benefits. I could live from savings but that would be limited although with a 5 year life expectancy it should cover it nicely. Can't complain too much as the state does pick up a hefty bill for my care.

The biggest failing comes from the sense of entitlement from those who don't work, rely upon benefits so engrained now and difficult to change. They know how to play the system better than me! Difficult to find a way around it as you need to make sure that those in real need don't get missed.

I guess that I will just continue working from bed, pay my tax and hope that one day I get some back, probably have to blow the savings on a drink and coke binge in Vegas first though

[Burgerman]

I guess that I will just continue working from bed, pay my tax and hope that one day I get some back,

If your socialist hero tit corbyn gets in, then the country will be bankrupt so there wont be any left.

[MichaelB]

I guess that I will just continue working from bed, pay my tax and hope that one day I get some back,

If your socialist hero tit corbyn gets in, then the country will be bankrupt so there wont be any left.

It won't take Corbyn, Brexit should screw GDP and our ability to borrow. Even worse Corbyn being elected and trying to negotiate Brexit, that will f'ck everything.

[Burgerman]

Brexit wont muck up trade much at all. It may initially due mostly to 2.7 years of remainer MP's, TV, etc we are now on the final scare story 3. Its bollocks. Back in the real world it will make sod all difference after around 6 months of people cutting back and panicking for nothing. And government port incompetence and lack of organization. They had 2 years to do that ready for a no deal, because those that WON the referendum never wanted a "deal"... Maybe a trade only deal after the event. And after that we will be at least as well off as before brexit. Long term will be much better if we can get a clean break and non of the EU interference.

The only real threat and a very serious credible one it is, is that tit corbyn and his socialist morons. Forget about brexit, thats a GOOD thing or it could be if we actually LEFT. labour is the serious worry.

[MichaelB]

How much experience have you got exporting? 25+ years working for a UK manufacturer attempting to grow internationally using every bit of support from the DTI. In the long list of criteria to get a distributor a tradedeal with that country wouldn't make the top ten. Credit risk for supplier, forex risk for distributor, compliance with standards, use and protection of IP, international and domestic marketing etc, etc etc. Being able to do our own deals will have negligible effect on our exports especially when we buy raw materials in $US which we are already devaluing against. Most of the rhetoric on the ease of trade deals comes from fools who have never manufactured or exported a single item, don't know what it is like to make a pitch to a distributor or business risks involved. The DTI has spent years working on helping UK industry and it is highly unlikely they'll magically find markets where trade deals help, if they do the risk on credit line almost certainly increases. The EU has had little/no impact on our ability to export that is down to us and our business methods/costs that won't change post Brexit.

The uncertainty is what will hit . markets first, if we get a 2008 style drop we are in for years more austerity, low GDP, higher servicing cost of loans. Less to fund services and bigger debts. Once May's deal gets killed they need to find a way to solve the immediate problems, Norway +isn't it.

As no deal looms closer the markets are responding, I moved my pension fund into lower risk options, more focus on property, less risky stock, it hasn't stopped thousands being wiped off it in the last few weeks. Impact of that is I can't buy as muchh, same goes for millions of others so more impact on the economy. Capitalism needs us to spend.

If the lunatic Corbyn and his inept colleagues are elected even more scary but there are no credible alternatives.

[Burgerman]

How much experience have you got exporting? 25+ years working for a UK manufacturer attempting to grow internationally using every bit of support from the DTI.

Theres your first problem. The DTI are idiots.

In the long list of criteria to get a distributor a tradedeal with that country wouldn't make the top ten

Nobody needs a trade deal. You order the stuff, or they do, and you pay.

Credit risk for supplier, forex risk for distributor, compliance with standards, use and protection of IP, international and domestic marketing etc, etc etc.

You are just looking to make everything far more involved than it is in reality.

Being able to do our own deals will have negligible effect on our exports especially when we buy raw materials in $US which we are already devaluing against. Most of the rhetoric on the ease of trade deals comes from fools who have never manufactured or exported a single item, don't know what it is like to make a pitch to a distributor or business risks involved. The DTI has spent years working on helping UK industry and it is highly unlikely they'll magically find markets where trade deals help, if they do the risk on credit line almost certainly increases. The EU has had little/no impact on our ability to export that is down to us and our business methods/costs that won't change post Brexit.

Yawn... All over complicated. Nobody needs any trade deals, and the very last people that understand business is the DTI. Bunch of clueless paper pushing civil servants. If they had a clue they would be trading not paper pushing for a wage.

The uncertainty is what will hit . markets first, if we get a 2008 style drop we are in for years more austerity, low GDP, higher servicing cost of loans. Less to fund services and bigger debts. Once May's deal gets killed they need to find a way to solve the immediate problems, Norway +isn't it.

There I agree. We should have left, as we voted to do, kept the 40 billion, and gone to WTO rules with a 2 year transitional period to organise the changes needed. We would by now already be out of all uncertainty and be a free country again.

As no deal looms closer the markets are responding, I moved my pension fund into lower risk options, more focus on property, less risky stock, it hasn't stopped thousands being wiped off it in the last few weeks. Impact of that is I can't buy as muchh, same goes for millions of others so more impact on the economy. Capitalism needs us to spend.

Wrong. We need MORE capitalism. That is what will grow the pie. Including your bit.

If the lunatic Corbyn and his inept colleagues are elected even more scary but there are no credible alternatives.

But those are your socialist buddies. Those idiots are your preferred party. Those are the Venezuela style economy lovers.

France is broke, and its people are much poorer and struggling. Why? They always have been very socialist. Thats the cause of their problems. Macron wanted to try and sort that out with his employment and taxation reforms. Which is essential or France will get poorer and poorer. As it is there are starting to be shortages of basics like food on the shelves in the sticks. But what do the people want? Well because they are struggling more than ever, they want to tax the rich more, and have higher minimum wage, and to stop all the employment reforms etc, They want MORE socialism... They had a very socialist past. It made them poor. But they dont get it. Because they are too dumb to see what the real problem is. Macrons fuel tax was just the straw that broke the camels back.

[MichaelB]

You have absolutely no idea how business works, it is pointless even bothering to explain. I'll leave it at that. If I need help with a power chair I'll return.

[Burgerman]

If you say so. My families businesses that import and export, and my previous pre accident businesses that did the same, all show you are wrong.You seem to fixate of difficulties, excuses, imaginary problems. But whatever.

It boils down to this. If you make something that someone else wants to buy, they will. Businesses or private. And the seller wont stop them. And thats all that actually matters. 97 percent of all world trade is WTO only. Free trade deals CAN be better if the baggage attached doesn't rule them out. And it does.