How close are we to Nuclear Fusion and Hydrogen Fuel Cell?

[Scooterman]

About a decade ago they were telling us weed all be driving around HFC cars only emitting water. What happened?

How about a working NF reactor? I think you need temperatures and pressures similar to inside our sun? No dice???

[Burgerman]

Nuclear fusion may never happen.

And fuel cells are rubbish. You turn hydrogen into electricity, to drive a car.
Q why use a fuel cell, when every car already has an engine that runs great on hydrogen already?

Q why use hydrogen? You must MAKE that hydrogen... Do you know how they do that? Yep, power stations, mostly burning fossil fuel, creating electricity at around 30% efficiency. Then you got to get the hydrogen from water and electrolysis. Thats more efficiency wasted... Then you got to compress it (you cant store much this way) and it wastes more energy compressing it into cylinders. But you cant liquify it to store more, because that needs it to be kept super cold. Which wastes more energy. And then you feed it into a fuel cell, which wastes a bit more to get electricity out... That wastes more energy. Then you got to regulate that with a power module that needs to be water or fan cooled wastiung more energy. Then feed it to motors that waste a bit more...

Why not just use lithium batteries like tesla?

[Gnomatic]

Hydrogen on commercial scale today is usually made via steam reforming of natural gas. Essentially extracting hydrogen from a fossil fuel to produce "grey" elemental hydrogen. Much less common is producing hydrogen from water via electrolysis, with the electricity coming from a renewable source. This gives "green" hydrogen. But this way is very expensive and very difficult to scale. And then there's the problematic storage and infrastructure aspect of using elemental hydrogen as a transportation fuel.

As BM mentioned I think Tesla's success has decisively ended the battery vs fuel cell debate. Pretty much all the major automakers are coming out with battery electric vehicles in the within the next five years. Outside of Toyota's fuel cell Marai, the auto industry has pretty much moved on from fuel cells for their upcoming "green" vehicles.

The old saying is that fusion power plants are about 30yrs away. And this has been the case for the last fifty years. So we'll all very likely be long dead before humanity starts powering the grid with fusion power plants. If it ever happens at all. Although their is a lot of R&D pouring into it. Recently the Wendlestein 7-X fusion reactor in Germany set several records. The other big fusion project the ITER international fusion reactor project. It is sill being built, and its a good 5-10 yrs before that thing is scheduled to be fired up.

[Burgerman]

The other thing is that we already HAVE a thing that turns hydrogen into go. Every cars engine can burn hydrogen already. So why waste time and money on fuel cells with all the issues and speed of conversion, cost, short lifespan etc.

[Scooterman]

Thank you for the links Gnomatic, I'll check them out later

The other thing is that we already HAVE a thing that turns hydrogen into go. Every cars engine can burn hydrogen already. So why waste time and money on fuel cells with all the issues and speed of conversion, cost, short lifespan etc.

I didn't realise the infernal combustion engine could be made to run on hydrogen? Vegetable oil was the thing a few years back although you don't hear of that anymore.

How are the government going to tax electric vehicles charged at home? Because as sure as eggs is eggs, when enough people have switched the Gov will still want fuel duty. How are they going to meter how much electricity has been used for domestic use and how much for charging a vehicle? If I was still working and had an electric vehicle I'd plug it in at work!

[Burgerman]

Its much worse. They will need billions in infrastructure.

If I had a typical car of today, say the 'cheap' model 3 tesla, it has a 80 to 100kwh battery. We wont go into tesla trucks with 20 to 30x that, or the tesla sports cars 200kwh here.

A typical house uses 20kwh a day. Take a look at your bill. So your tesla takes 5x as much on a charge. You might only charge it 50% of a charge. On average daily. So now its going to use 2.5x as much as your house. On top. And most of my neibours have 2 or 3 cars with sons, daughters, and wife all having one. All working in distant towns and universities. One is a rep, 300 miles a day is average! That means your house will need 20x more power than today. Or 10x if you only use half a charge. So when we are all powering cars with electricity, the power company and number of power stations, and transmision lines, sub stations will need to be many times bigger. Today running a few LED lights they already struggle to keep up with demand.

At the same time every factory and buisiness, delivery, and train, as well as every truck will all be electrically powered too! Where will all this electricity come from?
I wont mention that most houses use gas to heat homes, approx 5x cheaper, but we use about 5x more of it. Soon we are going to be forced to use heat pumps. So again, our electrical power needs will increase by double or tripple in order to heat the house, and no nasty planet destroying gas.
And where is THAT extra electrical power going to come from?

And we are shutting down all the fossil fuel stations! And NOT replacing them with nuclear as was originally planned due to cost. They think they can do that with wind, (when its not blowing much of the time like now) and solar (which only works in summer and daytime). So thats all going to work well every night when the wind naturally drops.

Next time a green politition bangs on your door, ask him how that impossible scenarion is going to work. They dont know, it never occurs to them. The greens understand the least physics and engineering of all the parties as far as I can tell. These planet saving idiots are clueless.

[Gnomatic]

Soon we are going to be forced to use heat pumps.

What's your aversion to heat pumps stem from?

[Burgerman]

The fact that electricity costs 5x as much as gas**. So actually using a heat pump instead of gas works out more expensive in many instalations. I have considered fitting one here. The cost is huge, the gains if there are any, depending on the system, will take 25 years to recover. By which time you will have replaced it twice.

**And. Tis is at TODAYS electricity price. It is about to get super expensive as soon as much of the UK are forced to use electricity for vehicles in the near future. Once they figure out 2 things.

1. MUCH more electrical power will be required. So since we cant use gas to generate much of it as today, and acres of windmills that are short lived and expensive, and subsidised hugely, dont work much at nights when theres less wind or at times when theres no or little wind during the day, the price is going to have to reflect some means of generating at least double the power we use now, for cars. And approx 3X what we use today to use it for heat pumps in every home. The cost of the electrical infrastructure, and nuclear powerstations in the 40 or 50 that will need to be built will bankrupt industry and private customers alike.

2. The loss of revenue from road fuel. Which is enormous! At least 80% of this fuel is tax. That will then need to go onto electricity. So its all impractical. But government ministers understand non of it.

[Gnomatic]

Okay. In northern areas of the US, there are a lot of rual homes that are heated by diesel furnaces. And cooled in the summer by electricity hogging air conditioners. And for many that have a bit of land ditching their current AC and diesel furnace in favor of a geothermal heat pump makes a lot of sense. I know a few households that have done this. And their break even was <10yrs. But much depends on the location and existing infrastructure.

[Burgerman]

In the UK, the amount of energy a house uses for heat is around 5x greater on average that the amount of electricity used. And the cost of the gas used for heat is around 1/5th as much per unit of energy.

This is around 90% of all housing. Yes theres some using electricity, some diesel, some wood/coal burners. But thats a small amount of the big picture.

So if we were all to use electricity for heat, that means a 5 fold increase in kWh needed across the country...
So lets HALF that. For no reason! We now need 2.5X as much power as today. (Actually a lot more.)

So... 2.5 to 5 times as many electricity pylons, power stations, and FUEL for power stations.
We are all soon to be forced to do this because - saving the planet from some 'climate emergency' that those idiots believe is happening. Since our existing power system is already under massive strain, due to shutting down of 'dirty' but cheap coal plants, we were building a few Nuclear stations to fill in the missing power. Due to cost/other these were cancelled. So we are already in trouble even before this forced use of heat pumps. So a small amount of our power comes from literally hundreds of square miles of wind farms all around the coast at enormous cost, with the obvious intermittent unreliable supply, and the rest comes from nuclear (soon to be shut down - end of life - that leaves mainly gas powered stations that cannot cope alone. So with a 2.5 to 5x increase in demand we are screwed.

And on top of this, just to completely screw the system, we are being foorced to all use electric cars. These typically take 60 to 200 kWh to charge per day. Some 3 to 10x as much power as a house uses per day now on average. And many housholds have several cars! So now we need a LOT of money. To build a power infrastructure that is massively bigger across the country than today. And it needs to be fueled. So the cost of electricity is going to go through the roof. This will hurt business, living standards, and be all but impossible to achieve in any 'green' way unless the whole country is covered in solar, wind, and other power generation methods. Its all rediculous. And the shrill shouting of all the greenies, and government officials is making it happen. And as usual, all those that understand this stuff the least shout loudest.

This is called GREEN SOCIALISM. Because anyone using any fossil fuel has to be taxed to death to pay to build more wind farms, to pay for all this heat pumps and electric cars which all get government subsidies from normal peoples tax. Businesses suffer. Indiviuals suffer. And its all hidden and disguised in subsidies and so on.

This is my problem with heat pumps and green bullshit generally. The time to use solar, wind, etc or electric cars is when it makes financial sense on its own merits. Not by rules, laws, and subsidising it in some stupid attempt to reduce the amount of CO2.

[sad_vampire]

Heat pumps - The builder will fit the cheapest available heat pump/installation package, so air source heat pump, rather than the more efficient ground source heat pump.

Nuclear fission plants - I calculated some 15 years ago that we'd need 41 new fission power stations, I submitted the figures & was told I was being stupid as max only 13 would be needed.
The people who told me I was stupid didn't add in the electricity consumption of cars. I didn't add in the electricity to replace gas central heating systems, so 41 was way too low an estimate.

Hydrogen feuel cells - The current problem is fuel cell contamination reducing their efficiency very quickly, bear in mind that the oxygen source is the polluted air & that was always going to be a problem.

Nuclear Fusion - yes, it'll be running in 50 years, same as my dad told me in 1971, just 50 years. He always told me that it will always be 50 years away unless there's a breakthrough.

Alternative "green" energy - Excellent idea, especially wind power, as long as you put it in someone elses back yard. Hence the lack of wind turbines in London. Deep sea wind turbines are looking
like they will be viable if your country has enough continental shelf (we do).

Population - less population requires less energy. There's the real solution. Soylent Green anyone?

[Burgerman]

Renewables will naturally evolve, including the supply system over time as fossil fuel becomes expensive. If ever. The real problem is the carbon footprint save the planet religion being forced on us in the UK long before its financially sensible and well before its ready to use. They have no clue. Bunch of idiots that are like failed trafic wardens and worse running the country.

[popschief]

In california the gov has already added a tax on the air we breath (air pollution control districts). Now they are proposing a tax on the water we drink. Then as we implement more and more solar/wind usage they will tax the sun and wind. I used to think the sun, wind, and water came from nature but the state must have taken it over.

[Gnomatic]

The youtube channel Real Engineering recently released a video about Califorinia's problematic approach to renewable energy.


youtu.be/h5cm7HOAqZY

He makes a flub a couple minutes in when mentioning the capacity of the announced Moss Landing grid battery at 567MW instead of 567MWh. Overall its a pretty insightful breakdown.

[Burgerman]

Yes. but its got a few issues.

1. Calif has tons of space to install billions of expensive panels.
2. The output of the panels degrades over time. Faster in places where theres a lot of sun... He has not included a price to replace it all in 20 years...
3. Solar do nothing at all at night when we need the lights on.
4. When no wind, as today, I am looking out across hundreds of miles of wind farms in the north sea, that are still. No power at all.
5. California has a approx 1 to 2 variation from winter to summer. In much of the world thats a reduction of 5 or 6 times in winter.
6. Wind farms at sea where most are in the UK because unlike california, no space, corrode at a horrible rate and are permanantly being replaced and repaired as they begin to age. So here a 20 year life is very unlikely. And these things cost a $$$$$$...

And now the biggest ussue. https://smarterbusiness.co.uk/average-g ... -usage-uk/
We in the UK average 10kWh per house per day. And 4x that in gas for heat. (0 in summer and 8x as much in winter.)
We have a gov that have banned all fossil fuel car sales from 2025 in 5 years. Each 100kwh car battery needs 10x as much power as the house. If its driven a long way. Lets say it only needs half a charge at 50kWh daily. Now the domestic house requires not 10kWh, but 60kWh. Its actually much worse if we consider that most houses will have more than 1 car. Look around! We will ignore all the public transport, 2nd cars, trucks, aviation, farming etc, and industrial use. So just domestic car use will increase demand by approx 500%

Now consider this. Our green government idiots, also decided that gas central heating boilers that 90% of all houses here use, because its cold, are to be replaced by heat pumps to 'save' the planet, I forget the date but its soon. On average in the UK we use 4x more energy from gas, than electricity, but thats an average. In winter its 8x. In summer zero. So that means we will now need to have a grid capable of a lot of extra power. Lets say a heat pump averages 10x as much energy as a house in winter. But the problem is worse because on cold winter days they are not as efficient. But we will ignore that, and lets call it HALF of that - so 5x average. So now we need 50kWh for heat. 10 kWh house. And 50kWh to charge a car. A total of 110kWh per day. Up from 10. a 10X INCREASE in required electricity !!! How does that factor into the going green energy generation?

[Gnomatic]

A lot more nuclear generation if I had my way.

[Burgerman]

Realistically, we need to junk all the renewable stuff, and all the rest, and have 10x the current peak power amount of generating capability. That would give reliable supply, take over from gas heating, and diesel/petrol cars and allow us to be all electric. That would mean 10x the grid, 10X the capability. But they dont throttle. So on a warm summers day, when no heating needed, and say at a weekday when cars are all out and about at work, then the grid will have at least 2x the capacity we need. It has to be sent somewhere. You cant just dump all that energy! So still screwed.

Also the cost of increasing the grids capacity, by 10 fold, would be absolutely astronomical!!! Esp with nuclear. Its so far from achievable that its plainly a joke. But goverments do not understand rough back of cigarette packet engineering calculations. Its all about meetings and agreements and understanding 1% of the issue and believing the green bullshit.

[Burgerman]

For what its worth I thought about running a generator here on natural gas, intended for heating. Its all piped up ready. And since this is 5x cheaper than electricity per kWh of energy, feeding it back to the grid. The grid will buy electricity at around 1/3rd the retail cost they sell for (bastards!). But it still allows some profit. So I wonder why people are not hiring big silent generator sets, and selling power...

[Gnomatic]

I0nteresting idea. You could be the first!

I have a 14KW standby generator wired into my gas line. Last night there were tornadoes in the area. Everyone in my neighborhood was w/o power .... except me and another guy a few units down who also has a standby generator.

[Burgerman]

Check out its efficiency specs. And your gas costs per kWh generated. If its profitable, leave it running and feed the grid. You may need a grid tie converter, and a different meter fitting that can work like a solar one that measures the power supplied TO the grid. It will include 'anti islanding' that prevents you supplying power to the grid in case of power outages. So you dont electrocute a power worker. Like my solar inverters from ebay.

You might find it can pay you a wage...

[Gnomatic]

This is my unit.

https://www.norwall.com/product_pdfs/86 ... specs2.pdf

I don't think it'd be profitable where I'm at.

[Burgerman]

You would needto find the amount they pay per kWh, and do a little maths.