NiMH or Li-on batteries?

[Katilea]

Hi

I've decided to get the Steering Developments Motion Drive system (formally Yamaha JW1.I think), just to go on my old manual quickie when I need something that fits in someones car boot and can manage a couple of hours around town.

I'm applying for a new assistance dog as mine is coming up for retirement and as part of that I have to do a 2 weeks residential, where I will be out training with the new dog everyday, in shops and public places etc. I have no idea of the terrain as I've never been to Sussex (Canine Partners Training Centre) would I be better going for the NiMH package which is cheaper, just under £4,000 but only does 11.5 miles so I'd need a spare battery, the cost with additional battery would be £4,537 and the total miles for the 2 batteries would be 23 miles.

The other package is the Li-on battery also 23 miles and the package is £4,350 and I wouldn't be getting another battery (at the initial time of purchase) as the replacement ones are over £1,000... I don't mind having to pay £1,000 to replace it IF it's going to be a huge difference in performance so was wondering if anyone could tell me? .. eg.. Do the Li-on batteries hold their charge better? would they not go down as fast, if I had lots of hills and kerbs to negotiate whilst out training for the day? .. I would only be taking this one chair so it needs to keep going all day for me for 2 weeks solid.

It will be charged overnight of course,everynight.. but can I do a quick 'top up' charge? say for example it was going to be a long afternoon out would an hour top up charge at lunchtime work? or at teatime before going again for the evening? or would I be better getting the NiMH batteries and have 2 so I can swap them in middle of day if needed?

Thanks

Kati

[Burgerman]

NiMH batteries are awful things. Lithium is massively better.

But... You will murder the batteries using them in this way regardless of type.
They are simply too small to do the intended job properly, and so are used to their limits in C rate every time you go up a slight slope for eg. And the prices you are seeing for these batteries are quite simply unbelievably high considering their tiny capacity. How fast they "go down" depends on the AH capacity of each basically. If both are the same expect about the same range from both. But remember that the harder you work the tiny batteries the shorter their life. Lithiums should last longer (lifespan not range) if treated correctly.

500 plus for a tiny nickel metal hydride pack?
Or over a grand for a tiny lithium battery that will not last?

I can buy a lithium battery that is about 5 times the size or bigger for the same cost as used in my newest chair. They are taking the p**s!

Dont expect to get even half the stated mileage though, from either battery type. And expect regular battery replacements, at silly prices if you choose this route. Its not for nothing that your chairs and scooters need 70Ah batteries!

Still nothing wrong with going this route as long as you are understanding the expectations and compromises and are not in for a big shock and dont care that they are charging a HUGE premium for bespoke batteries....

[Burgerman]

It will be charged overnight of course,everynight.. but can I do a quick 'top up' charge? say for example it was going to be a long afternoon out would an hour top up charge at lunchtime work? or at teatime before going again for the evening? or would I be better getting the NiMH batteries and have 2 so I can swap them in middle of day if needed?

Yes top up not a problem. Two packs rather than one? Probably worse. Without seeing all the battery data, I cant say for sure. But I would go lithium. But even so I would expect limited range and battery longevity used in this way.

[Katilea]

It's only for shopping centres and stuff. My Quickie chair won't fit in friends cars and taxi's around here cost a fortune (£25 for me to get my Quickie into town in a bus with a ricon lift! though the seat riser function has been great for my independence around the house) .. after that initial 2 weeks away it probably won't get used as intensely on a daily basis cos I use my mobility scooter for getting over the playing fields around here.

It would mean I could get on our buses though and get a cheaper ride into town more often for a couple of hours shopping. They can do 6mph it says which is better than my quickie chair but as I will have a dog fastened to the chair I won't be going at those speeds around shops anyway! I reckon at walking pace it should get me easily around town for a bit of shopping and my banking and back home (via bus)

The NiMH ones only do 11.5 miles (completely flat surface I should imagine with very light user) and the Li-on they are saying 23 miles... I know it depends on terrain but still it should easily get me around the shopping centre for a few hours or just to the hairdressers and back (10 min walk) or a day trip to seaside with friends, if all else fails at least they can still push me!.. with the Quickie its impossible.. I'm well stranded!

I can still self propel myself a little on flat ground I'm just not sure I can manage outings everyday for 2 weeks solid pushing myself about all day! I'll take my regular wheels with me too!

[Burgerman]

Then go for the lithium. But dont expect too much!

My dog goes at 6.2mph every day?

[Katilea]

my dog's nearly 12!.. she is going slow these days.. she used to be able to outrun me very easily! .. the new pup should manage it, he/she will be about 2-3 by time I get it.

As its a Dual Purpose Dog (cos I'm also deaf) it has to go through 2 lots of training, one with Canine Partners for the physical stuff (helping me get dressed/undressed etc) and then to Hearing dogs to learn to alert me to smoke alarm, doorbell, textphone (minicom not SMS on a regular mobile) and to learn all its commands in sign language as well as spoken.

I just think I would feel more confident and not getting panic attacks cos I know if batteries do go down I can just switch it to manual and still manage, whereas in huge powerchair if batteries go whilst out all day I am well stuck! .. maybe they can train the dog to pull me home if batteries go flat.. lol!

[Step]

A couple of 1000£ for batteries being used for 2 weeks is ok but a taxi or a van to get the chair you need and will be using afterwards is too much?
Hiring a van for 2 weeks might be cheaper and you can probably take both your scooter and wheelchair with you and then some...

For the price of 2 battery packs, you might even be able to buy an old second hand van and you wouldn't need your friend's car at all. Just a driver.

[Fulliautomatix]

I have a mate who uses this sort of thing, he has a couple of lithium electric bike batteries as well as genuine and repacked 'genuine' ones.
The bike batteries give low voltage alarms often but work fine. He carries a couple of batteries and gets a willing member of the public to swap some plugs around when required.
He dosen't go far or fast but it makes it possible for him to get around and use his sidecar scooter rig, another Google Sketchup design;
http://www.3wheels.org/outfit-reviews/s ... tmax-hack/

[Katilea]

I can't drive, Canine Partners will send a minibus to collect me.

The issue is I am having problems with my Quickie MWD, the lights go out really quick and I've been stuck a few times and a guy had to go get a friend to help him move me. It's a really heavy chair with the seat riser and tilt function on and really needs bigger batteries considering, but its NHS chair and they only provide enough to cover my indoor needs, they aren't interested in whether its got enough charge to get me out for all day for 2 weeks in a row without getting stuck or batteries going down! .. the woman even said to me she wasn't interested in whether I could get through an A frame or not with it, it was the cheapest solution for them to meet my needs and that's all they would provide. Even if I took vouchers to go towards another chair it had to be 4mph only and there's no way I was putting another £4,000 to a TDX myself to end up with just a 4mph chair. They wouldn't consider a standing chair for me, or FWD cos they don't like it and X5 Frontier is an outdoor chair so I couldn't have that funded by them!

I could fit that chair in their bus easily but the stress and panic over not knowing if it's going to last all day with heavy use is not going to help me when trying to complete this training with a new dog! I also know I couldn't manage heavy use of a manual chair for 2 weeks solid and pushing a chair and holding a dog lead (my old dog would be coming with me too to meet new dog) so would have a dog on each side when walking them before and after training!

I felt the e-fix system or Motion drive would help with the extra outings I'm not used to, and most of it is going to be social training.. shopping centres, shops, restaurants etc to make sure dog can behave reliably in public... and if I do get stuck..I at least know I can still switch to manual and still manage to get myself back to the accommodation... which in itself gives me more confidence to go there or go out more to other places.

My mobility scooter gets the heaviest use over playing fields, round parks and village everyday, twice a day and it does a great job, when my dog gets tired she can sit on footplate and get a ride home! .. she's too big to do that on wheelchair footplate (lab/collie cross).

This solution will be much cheaper than me buying a van I can't drive then having to pay a PA's wages to have someone to drive it for me! .. and so I always have someone there in case my big chair gets stuck and I can't get home.. that's not my idea of independence!

[Burgerman]

The issue is I am having problems with my Quickie MWD, the lights go out really quick and I've been stuck a few times and a guy had to go get a friend to help him move me. It's a really heavy chair with the seat riser and tilt function on and really needs bigger batteries considering, but its NHS chair and they only provide enough to cover my indoor needs, they aren't interested in whether its got enough charge to get me out for all day for 2 weeks in a row without getting stuck or batteries going down! .. the woman even said to me she wasn't interested in whether I could get through an A frame or not with it, it was the cheapest solution for them to meet my needs and that's all they would provide. Even if I took vouchers to go towards another chair it had to be 4mph only and there's no way I was putting another £4,000 to a TDX myself to end up with just a 4mph chair. They wouldn't consider a standing chair for me, or FWD cos they don't like it and X5 Frontier is an outdoor chair so I couldn't have that funded by them!

Now you know why I refused their help completely since their "help" was actually worse than their not helping. I built and paid for my own BM2 and BM3 chairs myself PRECISELY because of the above quoted passage. And pissed them off quite a lot for about 10 years while doing it. Never failing to take the piss at every opertunity by letter, fax, and in person which was marvelous fun actually! Since I have forgotten more about powerchairs than they ever knew, and obviously knew my own needs better than they do. There were times that they were sat in meetings in front of their big bosses where I made them seem rediculous, and incompetant. Which frankly they are. You should see them squirm.

The result was that they decided that the whole WCS was useless, didnt meet the demands of the user in many (most!) cases, and that they should in SOME cases just cough up the cash where the USER knew best. So that was how the "Personal Health Budgets for Powerchairs" pilot schgeme started. Very soon now they will allow others to do this too (without my fight!) and you can just buy your TDX or X5 or build your own as I do. I just get a cheque for 7k (as assessed and agreed) to cover my home built chairs or whatever other solution I personally choose. Torture them properly as I did and get something moving where you live?

[Burgerman]

http://www.3wheels.org/outfit-reviews/s ... tmax-hack/

THIS sort of thing is EXACTLY where the powerchair personal budgets can be used. A better solution on a users individual basis. Seriously. The plan is to allow users to decide what works best for them. Now in a short while you will be able to do this and have a budget to pay for or pay a proportion of it. Only previso is that you keep records and can explain how its related to getting you about more efficiently. The old WCS is dead. Or almost. Or rather is about to be! And good ridance.

[Anderida]

Just seen this:

"The Very 1st Lightest Electric Wheelchair
Each battery weights less than 2kg!
The Complete Folding Electric Wheelchair
For Everyday Use - indoor and outdoor
Car portable
Home & out door road or pavement use
Up to 15.5 miles (25km) range
120kg Carrying Weight
The application of our patented electric motor technology to large wheel based wheelchairs will transform the electric and manual wheelchairs industry.
SASAKI enhanced this advancement by deploying the power of lithium ion batteries.
iPower Wheel Chair"
http://sasaki.co.uk/ipower-wheelchair.html

Obviously not a chair to cross the Alps in but so nice that you don't need to be an Olympic standard weightlifter to pick up the batteries!

[Katilea]

that's not bad if it also includes chair the Motion Drive doesn't include cost of chair. I have demo on 17th.

Their site shows pic of lady removing wheel easily but yet they have to take my chair away to fit the system!.. when I asked about taking wheels off they said I didn't need to as can put it back to manual without changing wheels.

I wonder if they can fit their system to your existing chair and if it would be under £3,000 without the cost of the chair?

[Burgerman]

Well it might work for very limited range but the batteries are way too small for any kind of serious use. As are the caster wheels etc. But as a portable shopping transportable chair it could be ok. Not chreap though.

[Katilea]

The castors on my Quickie Easymax are smaller than those on that chair. I got the 5" ones, but it's only been used indoors/pedestrian areas etc.

The range isn't as good as the Motion Drive one, I still think that would work better for me for hopping on bus and nipping to bank bit of clothes shopping etc when need to fit in small changing rooms or classroom type set up like training centre.

I think scooters work better for me whilst I've got an elderly dog who needs a ride for us to be able to go a bit further afield (especially when also get a younger dog needing longer run). My scooter get the most heavy use for dog walking twice a day in all weathers and down to supermarket and back with all shopping (uphill all way back) and cheaper to replace!

I've asked for a demo anyway the guy's coming on 17th, I'll go with the Li-on battery option if I decide to get one.

I'm not happy with the Quickie MWD (NHS issue), its not working for me. Do I just ring the guy who comes to repair them to return it?.. or do I have to contact wheelchair services to say I want to return it?

[Burgerman]

tELL THEM ITS UNSUITABLE And why it is. Make a big list. Get them to supply something that IS suitable... Insist strongly, take no for an answer, and do it by signed for letter and keep copies.