Quickie P222 SE motors ?

[malamar]

io KMH was to be read,i was mistaken.
Could you advance me something about those problems??

Thank You very much, Gooserider

[expresso]

I think he is a long way from wanting a hyperion. At least at the moment!

Expresso, you should read most of the articles linked from this page. Badly written, but invaluable information. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerchair-stuff.htm

Hi - yeah i read all about it - still confusing to me lol - there is not way that i will be charging my batteries directly from the battery - i would have to charge from the joystick port - like everyone else - batteries will be Mk Gel for sure - size 24 - not sure of amp per hour on them - since they will be in the chair - and you have to take the chair apart to remove them or view them etc. - that means for me - when ever i need them changed is when i will know for sure -

Now about my charger - which would you recommend if i needed a new charger which would work for me in my situation and how i charge my chair - i always though Lester was a great one - i guess i am wrong - but from my experience - i have to say - these newer smaller lighter chargers they give out - dont fully charge my batteries - and i feel the difference - in terms of lasting longer when i am out side when i charge with the slower Lester i have now - soon i should have the 8 amp model that Sunrise gives - which i think is the Lester brand - anytime i used the smaller charger - it charges faster and says full - but when i use the chair - dosnt seem to last that long -
then i realized - if i charge it till it says full - then switch to the Lester - it shows as only 80% full and keeps on charger for a few more hours - its slower at 5 amp - but when thats done - then i feel it lasts much better outside all day -

thats all i can say about the chargers i have used - now i see when i get my chair tomorrow - which charger i end up with - etc, -

after all this - which charger would you recommend for me for the way i charge my chair etc, - from the joystick -

[Burgerman]

What can I say. There are millions of chargers, Most are either pretty crap, or have unsuitable algorythms.

To charge the MK gel PROPERLY you want a 3 stage charger That does true accurate CC/CV charging with 13.6v float. That charges at 14.10v between 8 and 25 amp, (charge port limits you to a practical limit of about 8) and with a 100th C cutoff poInt at the CV stage.

Now I have no idea if your small charger does that, but if it takes less than 8 to 10 hours to charge a discharged battery I doubt it.

I imagine it cuts off too early. And its charge voltage will be 14.4 (28.8) which is too high for MK gel. But this is what they send out... Trust me the lester is junk. I looked at a few. Every one behaves differently, and seems to wander around with no proper 3 stage charge algo.

Once you understand batteries, and want them to last, perform well, you would buy a hyperion, and charge via a better charge point... But you dont want to know this!

[expresso]

the old charger i have - its a 5amp - Power Cube 3 -- lester - brand - on drained batteries - this thing takes over 12 to 14 hours to fully charge - seems like forever -

with the 8amp they gave me last - was a light compact model - you see them all over the internet - that one takes a much shorter time - and it shows full - then i put the lester back on and it shows 80% - and keeps charger for a few more hours - thats about the most i know about chargers -

with the 222 chair - the batteries are closed in the case - you cant get to them - thats one - and the vendor etc, for sure would not let you do anything claiming that if anything went wrong - insurance wont pay etc, warranty void etc, you know the whole nine yard thing - last - i cant do it myself - thats the biggest reason -

if you tell me there is a great charger which i can plug in my joystick to charge them that way - and no more than 8 amps - thats what manufacturer recommends - than i can look into that one - if i should need one in the future -
-

i understand what your saying and for sure - you are right -- i find out tomorrow what charger i will end up with - if they bring me the one i ordered - its going to be a lester 8 amp bench top - i always though that was the better one -

[Burgerman]

Well it depends what it actually does, and which EXACT batteries you have.

I would monitor it with a good digital voltmeter for a full charge, and measure the cv level and amp point where it cuts off charging (end of CV point). Then I would know if it was the correct algo for the batteries I was charging.

It most likely isnt...

[expresso]

your most likely right - no question -

they give us MK batteries - size 24 - thats about all we know - they get installed and thats it - who knows how long they had them - etc, and they are not charged one at a time - like you state - is the correct way etc,

we just have to deal with that - or do like you do - take matters in your own hands - 99% of us - cant do what you do - most dont even want - - its a few like us here on the board that get more involved - which is great -

i dont have the help and know how - but your right - so many chargers - cant know for sure - they all say dual mode - etc, - but who knows the real specs etc, - even if you call the company - they dont know -

anyway - back to the motors - if my motors are geared at 15 to 1 - how is that compared to lets say 26 to 1 ? - i remember when i drove - i used to do all the things you do to your chair now - i used to do to my car -

first thing to go was my rear end gears - exhast etc, - with the gears - i went from a 308 rear gear to a 355 - and the car took off alot more bottom end - just a little lost on top end - engine rev. more - no big deal -

- i am sure my chair would be dead tomorrow when i pick it up - been sitting at the vendor for at month - - i will take pics of the motors etc, and battery charger - post it here - - very excited -

[expresso]

Look at what i found -

dont know how good this one is - but i hardly dont see NEW models -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... Track=true

[LROBBINS]

Delphi controllers have not been used in quite some time, this programmer is of no use whatsoever with P&G, and was probably "dealer" level anyway so of little use even for Delphi. The Delphi story was a sad chapter - a major automotive electronics mfr that decided to make a buck with a controller line, but the controllers were nothing but trouble so instead of making a buck they lost their shirt. In any case, it's not for you.

As others have said, you are probably much better off with a PC, the right OEM-level program, and a cable.

Ciao,
Lenny

[expresso]

I didnt think it was for me - just never saw one - plus in New Condition - i am staying with the Software and cable - its simple and works - i will find out once i order the cable later today -

i am going to pick up my chair right now - i will take some pics - post them -

Claudio

[expresso]

Ok - i finally got my chair today - all i did is drive it home - in the pouring rain - been raining all week here -

feels very nice so far - the front suspension castors work great for the city bumps - cracks etc, - big difference - my old chair had solid forks - controller is ok good - simple - nice - - i cant see anything on the motors that i can take a picture of - no writing that i can see - they are 4 pole - 8.5mph - 15 to 1 ratio - thats all i know - i cant see how fast i am going so hard to tell unless i am next to someone who has a fast chair etc, with the speed indicator -

now i did get the bench top charger - its lester - dual mode 24 volt - works with Lead Acid and Gel - actually the switch that controls that is not sticking out in the proper slot - i had to stick a pen in there to make sure its in the right position - i dont feel that confident with this charger either now - in the future - this is for burgerman - if i ever need to get a new charger - i would just have to buy it myself - i will ask you which is a good correct charger that i can use for the MK Gel batteries Group 24 - charging it from the joystick - if you can recommend one that dosnt cost too much - for now i will use this one and see how it much distance it gives me

now about the programming situation - Burgerman - YOUR RIGHT - now only didnt i have my chair checked - programming wise - He - the vendor didnt even have any programmer with him - and since they dont do Quickie Chairs - he said he didnt have it for Quickie - i dont believe that since any programmer for the Pilot plus would work right ? - i didnt even care much since i will be doing it myself once i get the cable -

it seems ok - not that bad - but i havnt really used it yet - turning outside etc, -

[ex-Gooserider]

I could be off on this, but what I suspect is happening where there appears to be a difference between the charge that you are getting from a modern CC/CV charger and the Lester, is that you are going by the green "done" light on the new charger...

The switch mode chargers try to make it look like they are getting "done" faster by switching on the green LED during the CV part of the charge, before the process is actually complete. If you pull the charger off as soon as you get the green light, and then hook up the Lester, it will quite accurately say that you are not fully charged, because you aren't...

The way batteries charge, the process is very non-linear, where the most of the charge happens very quickly, (just how fast depends on the charger's amperage) but the charge rate slows down drastically as the battery approaches full charge, so the last 20% can take longer than the first 80%...

As BM said, you need to actually monitor the battery voltage with a meter to see just what is going on, and what your chargers are doing...

Normally what happens is something like this, assuming that you have significantly run your batteries down:

1. You connect the charger, and the batteries will accept charge at the highest rate the charger can supply. The charger's output voltage will be lower than your nominal voltage by enough that it equals the current times the batteries internal resistance (Ohm's law...) This is the "CC" stage, and will account for the majority of the charge cycle. How long it lasts is a function of the charger capacity - a higher Amp charger will get through this phase faster. (Note that you should NEVER attempt to charge at more than about 8-10A through the chair connector, as it can't handle higher currents and will melt... High amp charging needs Anderson or equivalent high amp connectors)

2. As the battery charges, it's internal resistance changes, and the voltage output of the charger goes up until it reaches the programmed maximum - which hopefully matches the battery manufacturers recommended value. The battery continues to charge, but the current is gradually reduced in order to keep the voltage constant. This is the "CV" stage. Sometime in this stage, often just when you are switching into it, the charger will turn on it's "done" light - but it is NOT finished! After several HOURS of additional charging, at an ever decreasing amperage rate, you will be "fully charged, and go to the next stage.

3. When the current drops to a specified value, which should be a small percentage of the batteries AH capacity, the charger voltage switches to the "float" value, which again should match what the battery maker specifies. Very little actual charging takes place at this point, mostly the voltage is just a "maintenance" charge to compensate for the batteries self discharge and any leakage currents, and maintain a "full charge"

ex-Gooserider

[expresso]

Sounds right to me - but all those chargers do the same thing - and they say on the charger - when green light is on - battery if full - never mentions thats its still charging etc, -

i havnt a clue now how good or bad my new charger is - its direct from Sunrise - - and i just noticed that its not on the website anymore as parts etc, - or order form for any new chairs - they show the compact model -

which i have one of those - actually two of them - one is very compact which i carry - 7amp - and works same way - switching power supply - so if thats the case with those chargers - the green light really shouldnt go on till its actually done - what can you do - the industry does what ever they want - i have to work with the joystick for charging and cant connect the better connections to charger better etc, - i dont have the funds or help etc, to start playing around - if i had those - i can play around with my older chair - which is now my back up chair -- but my new chair - best to leave it alone for insurance - warranty etc, -

i get about 12 to 14 miles on a good full charge for the whole day - i read here that going faster dosnt drain the battery more - using my 220 - 6.5 mph motors on that - and i noticed a big difference if i raise the speed all the way and just ride all day that way - compared to lowering the speed with the speed knob - waste alot less battery - actually its the only way i can get that many miles by slowing it down a bit for distance -

i am ready to take a hit on the distance now with this chair because of the speed - i just hope its not too much - and it can take a whole day on once charge -

[Burgerman]

>>> for now i will use this one and see how it much distance it gives me

All the chargers will give the same distance. At least with new batteries.
The difference is in the last 1 Ah. That makes so little difference to range that its never noticible and must be in your head!
But that last bit DOES matter. Unfortunately, that last bit may take anything from 3 extra hours to 6 or 8 extra hours with older/gel batteries.

Knowing this, and with slow low powered chargers, the manufacturer cannot give you a green light when really full, because everyone would say charging takes too long. So they choose an earlier point, based on time, and current. Usually 100th of the capacity in amps, and/or 5 hours. The battery is 99 percent "done" here.

The last 1 percent is very beneficial, because it returns the lead sulphate crystals back to the acid before they harden on the plates and become permenant - which means you replace them much sooner. Some chargers continue to charge after the green. Some do not. Some drop to a safe lower (float) voltage, some stay at the higher voltage, which isnt good if left too long.

Without using a volt meter to see what is happening its almost impossible to say what any charger will do. Unless you have a full specification in detail.

Either way gel batteries are slower to charge, and slower still as they age. Batteries are not simple, at least if you care about them!

The best way to have good range, and make the batteries last longer before they deteriorate is to plug them in as often as you get chance during the day, and do a full charge every night. Better still to use a faster charger and a better connection via the anderson connectors shown here:

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/wheelch ... ectors.htm

This works better, and faster even with your slow stock chargers.

[Burgerman]

Heres an actual graph, of what is SUPPOSED to happen, and does happen, provided by my hyperion charger on a quick top up during the day as I sat at my PC.

These are Odyssey batteries. So Charge rate = 20 Amps, in parallel, at 14.7v. Cut off point was at 100th C.
Note how it charges at 20 amps at first, but once the batteries voltage rises this starts to fall away. Until its charging at a very slow rate, while still sat at 14.7v. Then it cuts off. This is the first 2 stages. Theres a third, not shown, that holds the batteries indefinitely at 13.6v for topping off that 1 percent, and long term health.

[expresso]

i get it somewhat - - - - Do you have a link or know of the top of your head - which charger works good for charging my new chair - but have to use the stock plug to charge in the joystick - etc, -

just the way it is from factory - is there a good charger what will work better then others doing it the stock way with out making any modifications - ? i have about 4 chargers now - not looking to buy another unless i feel this new one is not up to it - for me

thanks - and your right about the programming thing - the vendor sucks with that - didnt even have anything to program it -- i will wait till i get the cable and do it myself - i am sure i will be asking some questions here when in get to that point - its exciting -

[Burgerman]

One of your existing chargers may be fine. As I said the only way to know is to compare what it does, with what you need it to do...

First are your batteries MK gel? If so you want up to 1o amps (no more through trhe charge port). And CV level of 14.1 (actually 2x so 28.2v). It wants to cut off at around .5 to .7 of an amp. Then it needs to go to float at 13.5 to 13.8v (x2) for those batteries.

As usual knowledge is power. Lack of knowledge means you need to rely on a dumbed down manufacturers charger and you or I dont know if its correct.

For EG most chargers charge at 14.4v. Slightly too high for long service life on gel batteries. They do this because it charges considerably faster, so that the weedy charger can have half a chance of a full charge by morning... And most cut off too early, so battery not fully charged. This also shortens service life. But it means happy user... Until he has to buy new batteries. These are all compromises.

I use the hyperion because all this is adjustable. helped and advised on the charge algo, and settings for it 4 years ago. So I can CHOOSE whats best for each battery, to store, or to fast charge, or to use a higher voltage if in a hurry, etc. But again this means battery knowledge is needed.

No I dont know of any chargers that will give the correct gel charge algo, without measuring and watching what they do.

Theres plenty for AGM batteries. Gel are more fussy, and charge slower, and are more easily damaged by even a small over voltage.

[expresso]

your right - hard to know or ask you for a specfic charger - - you have the knowledge and know what your doing - thats great - i do my best - - but no where near what you do - my best was just dealing with a Vendor for over a year just to get my chair that i got now - for one - No one wants to deal with Quickie power chairs here in the East Coast - they all give you bullshit - they are no good - etc, etc, what ever - i dont buy it - and pressed on - finally got it - cant say if i will on my next chair - but thats years down the line from now - - then getting the 222 se - that was another challenge and i finally got it - had to pay difference - i hope i did the right thing -
i wanted the speed - and like the small compact footprint of the chair - plus i was used it already - 8 years in the 220 - - wasnt ready for a change -

all the vendors give here are MK Gel batteries - - so i am stuck with them - or if i want to buy my own - they may not warranty it - etc, and say if anything goes wrong - my mistake etc, etc, - thats the same with trying to add extra better connectors to use better chargers etc, like you mention here - so its a fine line - and you have to decide if you want to cross and deal with that -

i will say for me - i can deal with it the way it is now - may not be perfect - but works for my daily use - i live in the city - alot of cracks maybe - curb cuts etc, - i use the streets alot also - not much better - but no off road use -
as long as i can get a fresh set each year - i should be ok - its harder to get a new set each year if they are not drained down enough for them - they may feel weak to me - but may not be weak enough for them to warrant a change - - well see - the most use i give the chair is during the summer time - a good 4 to 5 months - then i slow it down and dont use hard till next summer - i hate the cold -

about the speed - i will use it today first time - if it dosnt rain again - being that a im about 150lbs American standard pounds - it dosnt feel slow off the line - feels much better then my 220 - smoother - maybe because its new -
i have to use it more to make a better review -

[Burgerman]

The problem with MK gel batteries is that on a hi end chair with 4 pole motors and a 100 amp controller thats programmed to respond fast, they cant really cope properly even when new and fully charged. You notice a lack of torque. What happens is that because they are about 4.5mOhm resistance, and have a large Peukert (surface charge) effect, and because lead based batteries always have a big voltage "sag" under heavy load, the controller kind of shuts off a bit, to be sure it maintains enough volts to safely stay "on" and in control. So as the volts sag to say 18 volts under the load of say a steep long ramp, the power falls off curtesy of the control system. I notice this horribly on a BM2 chair on the steep ramp in my local pub with MK batteries.

And as they become discharged throughout the day, the resistance goes up lots more... And its higher still in less than new batteries to begin with. So they are at their best here when charged full, and in the first few months. After that, they get slowly weaker...

Range doesent suffer even when they are all but useless to me, and a light user on the flat would think they were fine, in a typically soggy delayed action powerchair would never know the difference.

They would think they are marvelous batteries and they do go on forever like this. I have a set here that are many years old, they are crap under load! I mean much more crap than when new. But will still let me do 4/5ths of the original range as long as I dont expect too much from them.

Odyssey batteries that I and others are using on this site have a shorter lifespan, theoretically, but are HALF the resistance. So twice as good under heavy load with half the voltage drop. And they charge at a higher rate right to the end point so take about half as long to charge with a big charger. This alone actually helps them live longer than the supposedly longer cycle life MKs.

[expresso]

First day out with the chair and - yes its programmed crappy - not so much with the speed just going forward - the wheels just jump right up - in 4th and 5th - so much that you really have to go slow on take off to start

its a bit jerky of course - the turning is not great and needs adjustment - i am just getting used to it - so didnt hit the top speed just yet - at least i dont think i did - a friend has a pride R4000 - no match for the 222 -
he dosnt have the 8mph motors - so i didnt expect it to be a match - he has the 6mph 4 pole - which he claims are slower than his old 8 year nutron chair with 6mp motors -

for me to stay side by side with the R4000 - i would have to keep my chair in 3rd profile - thats about even with his chair - - one day if i can find someone who has a joystick that shows the speed - maybe i can really see what speed i hit on the top - its much smoother than my 220 - motors are quieter also - front suspension - excellent compared to fixed fork i had on the 220 -

i didnt go too far today - maybe 30 blocks or so - city blocks - bumps - cracks - curb cuts - no problem - battery didnt break a sweat - didnt lose any bars at all - which is great - and pickup and take off is fast for me - so i didnt lose much bottom end to get the speed - uphills - i cant say just yet -

so far - so good - - i hope to improve the steering etc, once i get the programming done -

my friend has the R4000 with the VR2 joystick - - He would like me to check his programming once i get it going - - would i be able to program his chair also ?

[Burgerman]

Speed. The built in ones are basic, and only as accurate as they were programmed or to the tyre size/wear/pressure. Use a GPS enabled smart phone. You can read speed, angles, plot OR TRACE your course on a map, see the scenery on google as you drive when back home, and replay it all later if you wish!

Programming VR2? Yes. Usually. But pride have a habit of trying to stop this with custom firmware that you wont be able to change. TRY IT. Although I have had success with about 80 percent over here in the UK. But failed on a US chair...

[expresso]

A friend asked me to try it if i could - - if i plugged it in when i am ready - and the program lets me continue etc, - - would that mean its compatible - or better yet - if its not - would it stop me from doing anything once i plug the cable in his chair ? i dont want to damage anything on his chair - it will either work or not ? also - this might be silly question but i want to make sure from someone who knows - once i get the cable - get it working with the software etc,- plugged in my pilot - i do have to turn the chair on with the cable plugged in to my chair and computer etc, to make the changes ?

i know i should know better - since i am a computer geek of some sort - but i also want to be careful with my new chair at the same time - and sometimes its the little things you over look -

so Cable in joystick - and in computer - open software - and use it - - ?

thanks - today is actually a very nice day here - going to use it today -

[expresso]

Quicki P222 se 2.jpg

[expresso]

Quicki P222 se 1.jpg

[expresso]

Sorry for the double pictures - i thought i didnt get the whole picture in there - didnt realize you can scroll down to see the rest of the chair - i just woke up - need some time

thats my new chair

[Burgerman]

Very pretty. Looks awfully high though?

[expresso]

hi - thanks - yeah - it is higher than most people like - my old chair that i was used to was the same - 19 inch seat height - i got used to that and didnt mind it - so i just kept the same specs - with the tilt - it adds 1.75 inch - and my cushion is a good 4 inch - i just got used to the height -

first day out today and its faster for sure than my old chair - a friend has the arrow with the GB motors - not sure what they are rated at - 7 mph or 7.5 mph -
with my old chair - i couldnt keep up - now i catch up - pass and just keep going - i dont like the way it controls like you said - its too jerky trying to go slow around people on the sidewalks - turning sucks as you ride - and front wheels want to come off the ground everytime -

i hope after i manage to program it - i will get a smoother more controlled ride - with the speed also - i will be asking you for sure about the programming when i am ready - waiting on cable -

the motors do have a certain wine to them when fast - which dosnt bother me much - but when going slow - it has a different noise pitch - which is more noticeable than i would have liked - of course now that i know - i will hear more -

as long as its not a issue with them - i deal with it - at first i thought they were quiet - but i didnt really use it till today - i am guessing its the gears breaking in and settling - ? do these things have Oil in them also ? or no fluids at all ?

the front suspension works very good - and battery life is not good - i didnt do much today in terms of distance but alot of popping wheelies etc, because of bad programming - all my greens went out by the time i got home - the batteries are new - so i do need to charge them for a good dozen cycles maybe ? or more before they settle in to there best state -

[Burgerman]

Forget battery meters. Its not possible to measure batteries with any meaning. Its almost pointless, although SEEMS to be meaningful...

As for height, - that MUST make it less stable??

[expresso]

with the lights - thats how i decide when i need to get back to charge - if i am far - i get worried -

and yeah i would think it would be a bit more stable lower - just like a car - but i got used to this height with my old chair - felt fine to me - once programmed - i should feel much better - with me - higher things always better - helps me with things - around the apt. - etc, - i cant get up from a low seating -

even though i have tilt - i use that also to help in getting up - i cant reach with my arms - so being higher helps with that - i feel more helpless lower -

i found a pic of you chair with the pilot remote - its an older review you have up -- i am having a issue - with this pilot remote - its mounted on a swing away which is fine - i need it - but with my old model - the joystick stick was more level to my hand with my arm on the armrest pad - i figure this is going to be the same - but its a pilot remote - and now - it sits lower on the arm - and my wrist hand has to bend down a little to hold it - its not level to the rest of my arm -

do you know of any adapter to lift the pilot remote up a little - level it out ? i tried looking around online - sunrise parts etc, - and nothing -

[ex-Gooserider]

Your batteries should get SLIGHTLY better after about a dozen or so charge cycles, after that it's a slow downhill path...

The normal gear motor gearboxes are filled with a thick grease. They might wear in a little, but I wouldn't expect big improvements in noise levels, the gears are pretty well fitted to begin with, and the grease will prevent most wear.

In terms of spacing up the control pod - first I'd find out if there are any adjustments that are built in - if not, or they still don't get the pod up where you want it, then it shouldn't be that hard to make / purchase your own spacer to boost it up. If your pod is like mine, it is secured to the bracket with a couple of 1/4-20 screws or bolts. I would either get or make a couple of spacers that match - ideal would be a plate with appropriate size and spaced holes, but that would likely take more machining than you are able to do. Cheapest / easiest would be a stack of 1/4" flat washers at each mounting point. If you add more than about 1/4" or so of spacer, replace the screws with correspondingly longer ones, but be careful not to use screws that are too long - they should NOT "bottom out" in the holes...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Swing away looks like its upside down. You may need to dissasemble it, and move the bracket that holds the pod, on the top rather than the bottom.