Wheelchair on tracks

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Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 12 Sep 2014, 00:46

Hello.
I am from Russia.
We make here such wheelchair
have questions, please ask.
Sorry for my bad English.


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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 12 Sep 2014, 10:53

We make here such wheelchair
have questions, please ask.


OK then...

There are lots of similar devices. Inc TankChair, Action Track Chair and many other similar clones, all using the same easily available track assembly. And Vastly underpowered mobility controllers and useless heavy lead batteries which are not adequate with skid steer.

+ A wheelchair is a device with:
a) wheels.
b) can be used indoors too... That's the point.
c) in my van, pub, etc.

Your device is a battery powered off road buggy. It is not a wheelchair.

All of these skid steer/lead battery/mobility controller devices share serious power/torque problems, short battery range, and controller overheat and power roll back problems. The typical mobility components used, are barely adequate, even in a normal wheelchair with casters. 120 amps is inadequate.

How is yours different?

Lithium battery? (3 to 5k kwh required minimum)
Much higher Amp and lower internal resistance controller?
Higher voltages used for efficiency? (eg my own chairs use 45V)
Brushless motors?

These things would make it work properly.

I welcome your comments. And a link to your site.
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 12 Sep 2014, 11:48

I will be writing briefly
Google translator, you to understand me

Torque enough
I use chain the stars
indoors You can not use
motors do not heat up, the controller does not heat
I have full access to reprogram the controller
I changed the gearbox motor
Lightweight Track
battery lead, it's cheap
5000$
speed of 8 km / h -24V
speed of 16 km / h - 48V, roboteq, brushless motors
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 12 Sep 2014, 13:14

The controller must get hot. Even after changing to 70C foldback, on an easy to steer normal powerchair, on a smooth surface, I can make mine do it if I try.

Tank steer requires at least 2 or 3x the current (Amps). Turn left and right for a few mins on a road and it will almost stop. If it has enough power to turn at all. And the batteries will not cope. I have experimented with a tank chair belonging to an acquaintance. Basically the same setup as your chair, same tracks etc. We fitted a cooling fan to the controller and it still causes rollback problems. 120A is not enough. You too, must come across situations where it will just not turn without moving.

Watch this. ONE motor, on a normal powerchair with easy to turn casters. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/motoramps.mp4 There's no way a mobility controller is adequate with tracks or skid steer.

I suspect the only way to make it truly practical would be to go Lithium Roboteq, 45 or 48V, and use a slower / lower geared motor, that will give you a max speed of 6mph on 48v.
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 12 Sep 2014, 13:37

I understand you
you are wrong
Think about the bike. shifting gears, riding up the mountain
pedal easy and you do not get tired, but a little speed
I got the same
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 12 Sep 2014, 13:44

I changed the gearbox and motor
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 12 Sep 2014, 13:59

So top speed now is?

8kmh?

So has same gearing almost as the chair in my link. (6mph). It is not enough.


I UNDERSTAND that gear low = less current or more torque. And also slower speed.

To get 2x the torque you need to gear for half the speed. And that is still not enough for skid steer off road with tracks.
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 13 Sep 2014, 22:23

speed of 6-7 km / h
it is sufficient speed to move through the forest, the ground.
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 13 Sep 2014, 22:25

looking for a dealer in Europe and US ;)
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 04 Jan 2015, 23:55

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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 05 Jan 2015, 13:21

The problems of using a heavy weak lead battery system, and a feeble 100A R-net controller (120A for a couple of secs) is considerable.

That system is barely adequate for a wheelchair on casters. and even here its easy to reach the limits - even on smooth surfaces and a powerchair turns a LOT easier than a tracked vehicle.
Watch... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/motoramps.mp4

The result of doing this with any kind of frequency is that the controller warms up, and you get a temperature problem (overheating cuts back power severely while it cools down again).

Hence the page posted here by the Original TC Mobility Tank Chair guy Brad Soden to try and stop all the users complaining that it will not turn properly and that they get overheating problems...
http://www.tankchair.com/instuctional-videos/

The real problem is that lead batteries, even "good" ones, are inadequate. And a feeble 100A with 20A boost for a few seconds is not adequate/suitable.

Your video pretty much shows as much. What you need to do is this:

1. 150A per side Roboteq. That will increase torque by at least 50 percent extra and it will not overheat as easily as it is extremely low resistance.
2. Reduce gearing by 50 percent. Giving a further DOUBLING of torque. So now we have 300% better than you have now.
3. Use 48V instead of 24V to get the speed back to the same as now.
4. Use a LARGE 48V high C rate lightweight lithium battery that can cope.

Then you will have 3x the torque you have today, and the same speed.
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 05 Jan 2015, 15:04

sorry for the bad english.
you do not understand that such track
I wrote the speed.
enough torque to move the the car
armchair is used in the cold -20
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 05 Jan 2015, 15:11

I have a Roboteq
I can compare the various controllers
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 05 Jan 2015, 17:13

Mobility controller not adequate. I can see it stall and stop in your film. And they are never adequate on any tracked vehicle.

Roboteq? No you cant test or compare without this:

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... Script.txt

And a 45V lithium battery, (to double motor speed and create double the Amps pulled when required under load)

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... air-11.jpg

And a motor with HALF the gearing. (HALF speed = double torque)

And these current sensors:

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... rimped.jpg

These 4 things between them will allow a 300% increase in torque, and the SAME max speed... THREE TIMES BETTER!!!

Roboteq alone will be uncontrollable, will not steer properly if at all, and will only offer a small gain in torque at max pulsewidth which you will not even see with turn scaling at 24v...
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 05 Jan 2015, 18:29

Google translator swine.....
I have lots of of different controllers
I have lots of of different engines



Image

Image

Image
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 05 Jan 2015, 20:15

I know. But:

24V no good...
Control script and current sensor are required! Or also no good!
Reduce gearing by half or no good. (Gain speed back by using 45 to 48 volts!)

You MUST have all of this for the Roboteq to help you.

Then 300% better torque!


Find a HUMAN translator so I can explain...
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 05 Jan 2015, 20:19

>>> speed of 8 km / h -24V
speed of 16 km / h - 48V, roboteq, brushless motors

No...

>>> battery lead, it's cheap

No...

Use Roboteq with 8km/h gearing = 2x torque. + more amps adding even more.
Use SCRIPT!!! Or you wont get any success.
And MOTOR COMPENSATION.... Essential.
Use LARGE HIGH C RATE Lithium Ion Phosphate 4 to 6 kW/h because lead wont work properly at 48v and with more amps.
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 15 Mar 2015, 17:14

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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby CPguy » 16 Mar 2015, 15:39

Красивая женщина (дочь?)! - Beautiful woman (daughter?)!

The chair seems to work as intentended but what happens at 1:30 - 1:35? Problems going up the hill?
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 16 Mar 2015, 16:09

Much like all the other vids. The parts where it "jumps" or changes scene are where it gets stuck...

And the parts where it doesn't slow right down when turning, or where it turns on the spot, are on loose or muddy slippery surfaces. Such as 2.07.

And no suspension means that she now has no teeth... 0.45 etc.

And of course she is used because she is lighter.
Trouble is that I can see through all the tricks.

And here at 21 secs and 32 secs etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXx7_YY_yFE
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 16 Mar 2015, 16:54

жена :D
spouse
complex translation....
1. look at the pit
2. Front seat footrest
gnawing footrest
Burgerman - I have shown you things! does not stop the chair!
Think on these items!
Star - chain - the caterpillar. will be a delay back and forth! in these parts!
you do not know what the caterpillar.
I have different versions of chairs, air suspension, coil springs. it all depends on the buyer.
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 16 Mar 2015, 17:08

But the one thing all have in common is a weak mobility wheelchair controller that doesn't have ENOUGH POWER and 24V electrics - and lead batteries.

These things are not really adequate even in a normal WHEELCHAIR!

Which means *all* tracked/skid steer devices, using mobility controllers are inadequately powered. Unless you use really low gearing (speed) + lightweight users. Even then its borderline.

No amount of selected video clip scenes with the bad bits cut out, or talking about chains, gearing, motors, etc can change this. And no you have NOT shown me it turn on the spot with normal gearing, on dry tarmac or on a dry grass field etc. Because it will not. If it does - temporarily - it will soon roll back and overheat.

Spouse looks OK though! :mrgreen:
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 16 Mar 2015, 17:35

turning on the spot asphalt, concrete, earth is just.
Snow is the hardest!
do I change controllers, I wrote to you.
can only control.
power of the controller is mine.
but the original controller can go. it all depends on the buyer what he wants.
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 16 Mar 2015, 17:39

child 20-40 kg - do not need power!
adult 50-90 kg - another controller and motors
transport trailer and so on - the other controllers and other power
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 16 Mar 2015, 17:43

>>>do I change controllers, I wrote to you.

You need to increase the max Amp limit.
MOTOR Amps. Not battery amps...

How do you do this?
If you don't, you have not achieved anything.

100/120A PER MOTOR not really enough in a wheelchair that is programmed to be responsive. Its on the limit.

200A PER MOTOR would be OK in a 6mph tracked chair.
If you could get such a controller. But Lead batteries then cannot cope...
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 16 Mar 2015, 17:45

child 20-40 kg - do not need power!
adult 50-90 kg - another controller and motors
transport trailer and so on - the other controllers and other power


Child? 40KG would DEFINITELY need 120A controller.
Adult? 50-90 kg. WHAT other controller???
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 16 Mar 2015, 18:46

I showed you what I consider necessary :D
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 16 Mar 2015, 19:15

Adding cooling does not increase Amps. Fail... :oops:
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Burgerman » 16 Mar 2015, 19:28

Amaze yourself.

1. Reduce gear to half speed. (Say 5kph). This gives Double the torque at same Amps. But too slow.

2. Increase volts to double. Increases speed by 2x. Now 10kph as before, with double the torque. And double the range too!

To do this you can use the same Roboteq 2450 that I use.

Now you also need:
Current sensors (http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-construction) see pictures of sensors.
And the script - or you will have no/little control. Also in the above link http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... Script.txt

Then you will DOUBLE range, and DOUBLE torque, plus more because it has 32 MOSFETSs (instead of 8) and 150A per channel too! So actually 3x torque... No heat rollback. Then after you test this, then tell me I am wrong.

You will have a tracked chair that WORKS properly.
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Re: Wheelchair on tracks

Postby Vitolds » 16 Mar 2015, 20:08

I gave you a photo Roboteq 2360.
Brush only original controller.
I will not use Roboteq he has a lot of disadvantages.
I manufactured the controller :D
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