Salsa M2

Powerchair or Mobility Equipment Reviews! Start a new thread with DESCRIPTIVE TITLE for each new review.

WEBSITE REVIEWS HERE (Scroll Down): www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerchair-stuff.htm

Salsa M2

Postby jumping jax » 11 Mar 2017, 19:20

Hi Recently got a Salsa M2 Powerchair from wheelchair services had it roughly a month and am again very frustrated with Sunrise because apart from being a very experienced powerchair user having had about 14 of all shapes and sizes spanning 40 years or so, the second editions of the Salsa chairs do not seem to be of the same quality as their original counterparts as l had numerous problems with the steering and wiring issues causing cutouts on the Salsa R2 which l returned to the wheelchair clinic, thus now have been issued as i said above the Salsa M2,which while the concept of the mid wheel drive and turning on its own axis is something l like my real gripe as with the R2 is loss of power and speed it first went well but after a couple of weeks has slowed down even though on the same speed! I am so frustrated, has anybody else had similar issues with Sunrise chairs or any other chairs for that matter? Or is just me?? As a footnote l had the original Salsa R for five long happy years which l loved and had very few issues with, that is apart from it "died" in the middle of a main road! Any feedback would be very welcome. Thanks
jumping jax
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 Mar 2017, 18:13

Re: Salsa M2

Postby Burgerman » 11 Mar 2017, 21:15

Hi Recently got a Salsa M2 Powerchair from wheelchair services. Had it roughly a month, and am again very frustrated with Sunrise because apart from being a very experienced powerchair user having had about 14 of all shapes and sizes spanning 40 years or so, the second editions of the Salsa chairs do not seem to be of the same quality as their original counterparts.

l had numerous problems with the steering and wiring issues causing cutouts on the Salsa R2 which l returned to the wheelchair clinic. Thus now have been issued as i said above, the Salsa M2,which while the concept of the mid wheel drive and turning on its own axis is something l like my real gripe as with the R2 is loss of power and speed. It first went well, but after a couple of weeks has slowed down even though on the same speed!

I am so frustrated, has anybody else had similar issues with Sunrise chairs or any other chairs for that matter? Or is just me?? As a footnote l had the original Salsa R for five long happy years which l loved and had very few issues with, that is apart from it "died" in the middle of a main road! Any feedback would be very welcome. Thanks


I had to edit that and add punctuation because I was mentally out of breath trying to read one long ramble!

So...

To break it down. You had a chair that for various reasons stopped due to inhibits, loom, etc. Yes they all do that. Unless you are very lucky, or you go over the chair yourself with a fine tooth comb and carefully configure things, properly rout the cables, and reprogram if possible so that an error doesn't stop you.

The slowing down is a battery issue. Dont get me started on lead batteries. The very best ones, are garbage. The lesser (cheaper) ones are much worse!

Lead can....
If you don't discharge it too deeply, or go too far daily,
If you don't ever leave it discharged and charge it right back up to 100% immediately with the correct charger (16 hours).
If you don't use small undersized or cheap batteries as you have in your new chair,
If you don't charge them with a nasty generic mobility charger that over-volts and under charges them,
If you made sure they were both balanced and / or full when installed,
If they were new stock, MK brand GEL or Sonnenschein A500 GEL batteries,

Then you would get between 300 to 450 cycles from them realistically (DAYS of USE) before they lose 20% of their range and power and need to be swapped.

But you probably do all of the above. So suffer bigger problems, much, much sooner. Also I dont get why changing from a raer drive chair with bigger batteries, to a mid drive one was supposed to achieve anything?
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 35754
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Salsa M2

Postby rover220 » 11 Mar 2017, 23:21

Sunrise used to fit mk gel as standard on the salsa but have moved away to eternity gel instead. Quality is obviously not on a par.
rover220
 
Posts: 646
Joined: 10 Dec 2013, 19:34
Location: West Mids, UK

Re: Salsa M2

Postby jumping jax » 12 Mar 2017, 18:42

Cheers Burgerman, Thanks for the feedback and insight, so basically in a nutshell apart from other contributory factors what you are saying is try to discharge the batteries as much as possible before recharging them which l know is recommended,but extremely difficult when you live in a one bedroomed flat and the extreme chills of winter are blowing outside! The only solution to this that l can think of is to discharge the batteries over several days and recharge it when needed?

Also apologies for any ignorance but aren't lead and gel batteries different? I was under the impression they were and that a majority of chairs had them fitted nowadays? l say this because i remember in my younger days at school 70's era the batteries had to be regularly topped up with distilled water and if not they ran "dry" Again sorry for my extreme ignorance!!!!

Well thanks again Burgerman for you knowledge and insight into all things "powerchair" as this subject has always been of real interest to me as l have severe Cerebral Palsy and like many others l suspect cannot move from one side of a room to the other without them!

Have a good evening. Thanks
jumping jax
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 Mar 2017, 18:13

Re: Salsa M2

Postby Burgerman » 12 Mar 2017, 19:35

in a nutshell apart from other contributory factors what you are saying is try to discharge the batteries as much as possible before recharging them which l know is recommended,but extremely difficult when you live in a one bedroomed flat and the extreme chills of winter are blowing outside! The only solution to this that l can think of is to discharge the batteries over several days and recharge it when needed?


The EXACT opposite. Doing this will destroy them fast. They do NOT like being discharged. They do like being charged properly for 16 hours. Often!

Gel IS a lead battery. As is AGM, deep cycle, carbon, SLA, etc.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 35754
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Salsa M2

Postby steves1977uk » 12 Mar 2017, 20:19

jumping jax wrote:Also apologies for any ignorance but aren't lead and gel batteries different? I was under the impression they were and that a majority of chairs had them fitted nowadays? l say this because i remember in my younger days at school 70's era the batteries had to be regularly topped up with distilled water and if not they ran "dry" Again sorry for my extreme ignorance!!!!


Yep, all chairs in the 80s, upto the late 1990s used Wet cell batteries. I remember my Dad having to regularly top up the batts with distilled water.

Steve
User avatar
steves1977uk
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 21:47
Location: Wells next the Sea, Norfolk, UK

Re: Salsa M2

Postby Mechniki » 22 Mar 2017, 19:49

I read in a boating/marine forum when looking at AGM (Absorbent Glass Matting) batteries that a Gel battery should never be discharged beyond 55% of it's total amperage and an AGM should never be discharged more than 50% - making the gel batteries better

Looking at the sunrise site, they do a 50 AH battery and a 60 AH battery for the Salsa M2 and there is a 6KPH and a 10KPH motor

Your loss in power could be a whole range of things besides the batteries, but the batteries is the obvious place to start

As for charging a chair, if you have used it that day, charge it at night, regardless of how long it was on or how far you travelled

If you have charged your chair, and haven't used it in a week. Put it on a lower amperage charger or a charger with a built in optimiser
which is what I am currently using on the TDX2 as that has a similar fault to your Salsa - I think the maximum time you can leave a charged deep cycle battery is 30 days, before topping up.

I want to put a direct charge to my TDX batteries, but the AJM Healthcare Engineers said invacare dont do one, but Dynamic which make the controller, modules etc say there is a DX - ACC3 charger socket module, for the invacare that plugs directly into the power module. Besides that as it is considered a modification I would need permission from wheelchair services to do it. Though on the sly, you can wire in a Heavy Duty XLR chassis mount. They're a few pounds on Amazon. Just use crocodile/alligator clips so that it can be quickly removed if the NHS/WS approved engineers come a looking.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1

I think it makes some sense, from where the charger plugs in on the controller, there are 14 connectors to the batteries - if it's wired the way Invacare has it... If it's wired the way Dynamic says it should be only 8 connectors. Charger/ controller/ power module/ battery
https://dynamiccontrols.com/en/designer ... roducts/dx

I hope this helps in a token way
User avatar
Mechniki
 
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 Oct 2013, 21:59
Location: Dorking, Surrey

Re: Salsa M2

Postby steves1977uk » 22 Mar 2017, 21:17

You'd be better off using an Anderson SB50 connectors for a direct charge cable which has the advantage of fast charging up to 25 Amps on MK Gel batteries. A XLR connector is not really adequate these days, except for re-programming and using it as a 24v to 5v DC-DC converter for USB phone charging ;)

Steve
User avatar
steves1977uk
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 21:47
Location: Wells next the Sea, Norfolk, UK

Re: Salsa M2

Postby Burgerman » 22 Mar 2017, 22:01

I read in a boating/marine forum when looking at AGM (Absorbent Glass Matting) batteries that a Gel battery should never be discharged beyond 55% of it's total amperage and an AGM should never be discharged more than 50% - making the gel batteries better



IF correctly charged, a quality deep cycle type gel battery like the MK can do 500 cycles at 80% depth of discharge. A DEEP CYCLE AGM can do the same. But most deep cycle AGM batteries are not quality, and are usually only good for 350 cycles, or so. Especially cheap Chinese ones.

ALL lead batteries, are damaged faster by discharging deeper. So theres no fixed figure. You are best to discharge them as little as possible. But if you need to get home thats not possible.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 35754
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Salsa M2

Postby Mechniki » 24 Mar 2017, 10:24

I think luck plays a small part in battery care, my cheap AGM batteries on the Marbella, which I recently changed for more cheap AGM batteries had lasted more than 720 cycles. I replaced them 17th February this year, the old batteries were dated August 2014 (but I hadn't used the chair in a while as I was using the NHS TDX2 - and I kept forgetting to charge it) - The batteries were still fine for doing up to 3 miles and pottering around in the home. I just didn't feel comfortable doing the round trip into Dorking. Centre and back is 6 miles. 8 miles to the Dentist and back (with it bucketting down), which is probably the furthest I have ever tried but that includes pottering around supermarkets, a look see in Robert Dyas etc, and then carrying a huge basket load of shopping in the eco bag on one of the handles. I wrecked the other eco bag, carrying bottled water, as the bag rubbed against the tyre all the way home, made it almost home before the water fell out. Teach me to buy 2 gallons (10 x 2 litre bottles). Wheras the other eco bag on the other handle was fine.

Anderson connectors will work on the Marbella, but not on the TDX2
the Heavy Duty XLR from Mobility Choices is the same if not better connector than the one in a standard controller. It is not for programming. And I am using a mobilty Siemens 8amp Charger (Invacare). And a conditioning 5amp charger for the Marbella. Or another 8amp Invacare's own charger (from the Mistral) for the Marbella.
User avatar
Mechniki
 
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 Oct 2013, 21:59
Location: Dorking, Surrey

Re: Salsa M2

Postby Burgerman » 24 Mar 2017, 18:13

I think luck plays a small part in battery care, my cheap AGM batteries on the Marbella, which I recently changed for more cheap AGM batteries had lasted more than 720 cycles.


There are no mainstream compact sealed batteries that give better than 500 cycles. And I dont know of any AGM that gives better than 400/450 cycles.

The cycle life claims, are described by the following parameters:
Discharged by 80% over 20 hour cycle, until only 80% of original capacity remains.

Of course if you do not discharge by 80%, and discharge to say 50% you may get 100 to 1200 cycles instead of 500.
Of course if you charge with a typical incorrect charge algo mobility charger, as most are you may lose 10 to 50 percent of that service life. I might add that I throw batteries away that still have 90% of original capacity remaining, due to another issue. Internal resistance. This increases with age and shortens range and reduces torque often well before cycle life based on capacity is a problem. Luck doesn't enter into it. Battery specs are well known, well tested. Luck on getting a "correct" charger is a large part of this though.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 35754
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom


Return to Powerchair Reviews

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

 

  eXTReMe Tracker