Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

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Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby BCrip71 » 23 May 2017, 15:59

Hello,

I'm trying to decide on my next power chair. I'm currently in a 646 but, I've gone through 3 motors in 4 years and I can feel the 4th one going very soon. Has anyone else had problems with the 646 motors? Besides the motors, I've been quite happy with it. If I got another 646, I would outfit it with an after market centre mount, 14X4 rear tires and 10" casters.

I'm also looking at the Rival. I've read that Pride is not liked around here but, what I like is that the centre mount, 14X4 rear tires and 10" casters are options from the factory.

Any thoughts or suggestions? I'm an active user who lives in Ottawa, Canada. I ride to work all year round, in all kinds of weather. I have over 5700 miles on my 646 in 4 years.
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby expresso » 24 May 2017, 23:52

Hi - i also have a 646se - fairly new compared to yours in terms of milage - i got about 2000 miles on it - this summer is my third summer with the chair - so close to 3 years - cant complain - so far its hanging in there and i cant see any other chair i like other than the quickie chairs -

How old is your chair ? which motors do you have on it - the older kind - or new motors which looks smaller overall -

curious to know - what happened to the previous motors ? how did they fail - what did you notice before you realized something was wrong etc,

my other quickie P222se - with the older style motors - larger size - i had to replace those - starting pulling to the left i noticed - the new ones i received seem to be a pinch slower than i can remember - but still OK -

the 646se i have seems much stronger and faster with the smaller newer motors they have now -

I demo a R4000 before i picked a chair and once i sat in it and rode it - hated it - not for me at all - i tried to stop a friend from getting it at the time - he went ahead with it - over the 636 - turned out he hates it - VERY slow chair - unless you get the 8mph motors - my demo loner had them - other than the speed - everything else i hated - looks handling - bulky big -

But please - if thats what you want - demo it first - if you can post back how old your chair is - which motors you have on it -

my vendor and most all seem to hate Sunrise chairs other then there manuals - but me in the other hand -- had them for 15 years and knock on wood as they say it -
Quickie P222se - - 36ah ADD on pack -
Quickie S646se - - 105ah LifePo4 Pack + 30ah ADD ON - 135ah total
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby rustyjames » 25 May 2017, 21:06

I'm interested in hearing what failed on the motors, too. I've been using a Quickie with Electrocraft motors (2 pole and 4) for 16 years now and never had one fail, and never changed brushes in any of them.
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby expresso » 25 May 2017, 21:32

my first 2 pole quickie is my indoor chair - over 15 years - same as the day i got it - the 4 pole electrocraft was replaced once on the 222se chair - i feel the newer motors although smaller overall feel better to me - but have a wine to them that the others didnt have -

nothing was never done to mines either - but even if you have to change brushes - thats minor -
Quickie P222se - - 36ah ADD on pack -
Quickie S646se - - 105ah LifePo4 Pack + 30ah ADD ON - 135ah total
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby Burgerman » 26 May 2017, 12:58

I would avoid pride for a bunch of reasons. Foremost is that tehres no way on earth I could ever get hold of a proper OEM level programmer for the newer pride stuff. Curtis make them specifically for pride, who claim that non exists. Thats not true, but no way to get one is the issue.

I would only buy any chair AFTER I know I can get acess to or buy a OEM programming tool for it. Ir it becomes a useless liability that will never steer properly. I cant use that on a daily basis.
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby MenCallMeGimpy » 26 May 2017, 19:13

Burgerman wrote:I would only buy any chair AFTER I know I can get acess to or buy a OEM programming tool for it. Ir it becomes a useless liability that will never steer properly. I cant use that on a daily basis.


This is so important. When I got my first "proper" chair, I bought an all-terrain Frontier V6, expecting it to be a high-performance product straight out of the box. Nothing could have been further from the truth. The chair wallowed around like a dinghy in a gale. None of the programming tweaks I was able to make with the "customer grade" programming software did a thing to fix the problems.

Once I got hold of an OEM dongle, though, things improved immensely. I suddenly had access to the full range of the chair's control parameters. I tightened up all the responses, minimized all the programmed-in delays, and generally turned the chair from a cart horse into a thoroughbred. It's impossible to overstate how much of a difference proper programming makes.
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby Burgerman » 27 May 2017, 13:29

True. But its also personal. I like mine sharp. Others test and say jumpy and harsh. Those that don't have proper joystick technique, and don't have hand on side of joystick pod for stability, not only cannot drive my chairs but generally go straight over the back within seconds. They are used to chairs where you do not use the control as a proportional device, like an accelerator or brake, but one where you slam it about to full stick and wait. That ends badly on mine as they are tippy!

And I usually modify many seating speed, inhibit and fault error affects. There are many functions that are designed to look for over current (typically stall, or over weight user), or high resistance (bad connection to activator for eg) and position switches that may be linear, end stop, or whatever. Theres also usually a stall current detection after so many seconds to prevent a retard holding in a command against a load and burning a motor. I configure any reduced speeds to suit myself, and any faults to either do nothing at all or slow rather than stop the chair. The last thing I need is a chair that stops me getting home because its got some faulty actuator/sensor etc.
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby Sully » 27 May 2017, 17:44

The more gadgetry you have that is run through the controller, them more opportunity there is for some sort of sensor failure. I like the KISS system (Keep it simple stupid) for my out of doors chairs.
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby BCrip71 » 26 Sep 2017, 16:29

Hi,

I'm sorry, I've been away for a while. I chose to go with the S-646. Sunrise has agreed to give me a three year warranty on the motors. I am getting 10" casters on it but, they are having trouble finding black 14"X4" (4.00-6) rear tires that are tall enough to go with the 10" casters. I went with these Soneil Advanced Technology Batteries (http://soneil.com/advance-technology-battery/), that are supposed to be as good as lithium but, behave like AGM. We'll see!

On the failed motors on my current chair, I think it was the clutch part that would fail and, because it is all in one with the motor, I had to replace everything each time. Each time, I felt it coming. I felt the motor grabbing at low speeds. Sometimes it would lock completely for a while and let go. Until it would finally seize completely. It would eventually pop and let go but, I would then not have a brake on the affected side of the chair.
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby expresso » 26 Sep 2017, 16:55

BCrip71 wrote:Hi,

I'm sorry, I've been away for a while. I chose to go with the S-646. Sunrise has agreed to give me a three year warranty on the motors. I am getting 10" casters on it but, they are having trouble finding black 14"X4" (4.00-6) rear tires that are tall enough to go with the 10" casters. I went with these Soneil Advanced Technology Batteries (http://soneil.com/advance-technology-battery/), that are supposed to be as good as lithium but, behave like AGM. We'll see!

On the failed motors on my current chair, I think it was the clutch part that would fail and, because it is all in one with the motor, I had to replace everything each time. Each time, I felt it coming. I felt the motor grabbing at low speeds. Sometimes it would lock completely for a while and let go. Until it would finally seize completely. It would eventually pop and let go but, I would then not have a brake on the affected side of the chair.



You will like that chair - its quick - sporty and comfortable if you ask me compared to any others i know of - is this going thru insurance ? how are you configuring the chair with those batteries etc, from sunrise ?

theres room to tweak on this chair - settings to get you a bit more speed also - i am doing it now with mines - you can fit a 350-8 tire which is much taller than the stock - but i would suggest trying a tire that matches the stock size overall at first - maybe a 90-90 - 8 inch - that may be a better fit - and still may be a inch taller -

congratulations - its a fun chair to tweak
Quickie P222se - - 36ah ADD on pack -
Quickie S646se - - 105ah LifePo4 Pack + 30ah ADD ON - 135ah total
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby LROBBINS » 26 Sep 2017, 17:54

Here's a tech sheet on one of their EFSL (light traction, high current) batteries: http://wagawoo.com/product_extra_files/12%20EFSL%2039.pdf
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby BCrip71 » 26 Sep 2017, 18:42

Yeah,

My current chair is a 646SE. It's awesome!

I'm in Ontario, Canada. Every 5 years, the provincial government covers 75% of a standard power chair. The rest is covered by my benefits at work.

They have fitted the 4.00-6 rims from the Xplore 2 onto the 646SE, so I can fit 4.00-6 tires on it. The problem is finding black 4.00-6 tires,besides wheelbarrow ones. Maybe I should stick with the original rims and go with 3.50-8 tires and 10" casters?
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby expresso » 26 Sep 2017, 22:45

BCrip71 wrote:Yeah,

My current chair is a 646SE. It's awesome!

I'm in Ontario, Canada. Every 5 years, the provincial government covers 75% of a standard power chair. The rest is covered by my benefits at work.

They have fitted the 4.00-6 rims from the Xplore 2 onto the 646SE, so I can fit 4.00-6 tires on it. The problem is finding black 4.00-6 tires,besides wheelbarrow ones. Maybe I should stick with the original rims and go with 3.50-8 tires and 10" casters?



i think i seen a tire that size in black - one time during a search when i was looking for black tires - what tire rim does your chair have now ?

i am trying to picture how that 400-6 would look on a 646se - i know my tire now 350-8 - is the max that can fit - its so close to the motors - and the fender has to be raised up - it will lift the rear up also - and you may have to work on the front tires to avoid having too much wobble - which the tires caused on my chair - i am dealing with it and its OK ish - it happens now and then - but since i got a bit more speed now i feel it - the wobble may happen more often -

what about those batteries you linked too - is sunrise adding those lithium batteries to your chair ? or your doing it afterwards ?
Quickie P222se - - 36ah ADD on pack -
Quickie S646se - - 105ah LifePo4 Pack + 30ah ADD ON - 135ah total
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby Burgerman » 26 Sep 2017, 23:05

Those are not lithium batteries, they are conventional heavy lead bricks that use a SiO2 electrolyte that behaves the same as the sulfuric acid / water in the normal lead acid. But they claim greater cycle life from them. It may or may not be true, but you still get the limited range of lead bricks. Although they do still use the same lead dioxide and lead pasted plates, they claim that their electrolyte mix is better than plain gel or acid/water mix. If you ask me its 80% marketing and 20% truth.

There are various ones around, sometimes called lead crystal batteries etc. A group 24 one for eg still weighs 50+ lb, each, and still gives about 50Ah at the rate we use them (at best). So its a slight cycle life improvement possibly, if true. But probable a worse impedance also if I remember comparing to the likes of the odyssey for eg. So not exactly in the same league as your lithiums Expresso! They dont help range at all, and they certainly wont go 45 miles!

Heres a clear explanation of the claims etc https://www.gliderpilotshop.com/lead_crystal
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby expresso » 26 Sep 2017, 23:20

Oh ok didnt know - i though these were something new Sunrise in Canada is doing - would have been great if it were some sort of lithium from them - even if not as good as how we built ours -
Quickie P222se - - 36ah ADD on pack -
Quickie S646se - - 105ah LifePo4 Pack + 30ah ADD ON - 135ah total
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby Burgerman » 26 Sep 2017, 23:23

No its the same old lead bricks with a bit of marketing sales spin, and a possible cycle life improvement. I wouldnt swap them for a set of MKs or without some careful testing, def not for a PC1500 lead or certainly not for a lithium phoshate battery.
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby BCrip71 » 27 Sep 2017, 15:18

I do not think you can fly with Lithium batteries. The battery gauge also becomes useless...I think.
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby Burgerman » 27 Sep 2017, 16:14

Actually you can fly.

Quote by IATA 2016:

Link to current document:
http://www.iata.org/publications/Docume ... 1st-ed.pdf

Battery-powered Mobility Aids

Non-spillable batteries (i.e. not lithium ion batteries) power the majority of mobility aids for persons with reduced mobility. But, increasingly, passengers are requesting to travel with mobility aids powered by lithium batteries. When fitted to a non-collapsible mobility aid, there is no limit on the Watt-hour rating of lithium batteries. Some mobility aids may have lithium batteries with Watt-hour ratings of as much as 700 Wh (or greater).

Therefore, operators will need to make a considered judgment as to whether they wish to carry such devices, taking legislation regarding the accessibility of persons with reduced mobility into account.

The requirements for mobility aids powered by lithium batteries are as follows:

• carriage is subject to approval of the operator;

• batteries and cells must meet all standards of the United Nations Manual of Tests and Criteria;

• operators must verify:

• the battery is securely attached to the mobility aid;

• the battery terminals are protected from short circuits (e.g. by being enclosed within a battery container);

• electrical circuits have been isolated (note: this does not necessarily mean that the battery has to be disconnected);

• carriage must be in such a way that the mobility aid cannot be damaged by the movement of other items in the hold.


The battery gauge is pretty useless with lead too!
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby BCrip71 » 27 Sep 2017, 16:22

Air Canada says that you cannot.

Besides knowing your chair, is there anyway to deal with no battery gauge with lithiums?
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Re: Sunrise 646SE vs Quantum Rival

Postby Burgerman » 27 Sep 2017, 17:03

Air canada will fly a permenantly installed chair battery. They wont fly a removable lithium as used in folding chairs. They are confused about the rules since the way it reads is not obvious and there are no popular lithium powered full sized powerchairs. Read the rules carefully!

When you fit a lithium battery in the way that I do and that many others here do, you dont need a battery gauge. Because you get so much range (typically 3x that of lead, or the same as 6x lead grp 24 batteries) that you are exhausted first. Unless you specifically get up early as expresso has done, and spend a full day driving to see how far you can actually get. After a real 40 miles or so you will have had enough! In any case, with various different controllers, like dynamic for eg, you can configure the gauge via software so that it reads lithium more accurately. If you cant, or dont, then you still wont do any damage as long as you stop soon after you begin losing lights.

Or use an external $3 plug in gauge. In any case I charge once every 3 days in winter, or fully if I plan on a long day outdoors and never got close to fully discharging a battery no matter how hard I tried. The charger I use counts Ah back in as you charge. So you can tell how much you have used.
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