Whill Model Ci

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Whill Model Ci

Postby Scooterman » 03 Nov 2018, 10:52

What do you think this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVdXduoS4vs

For someone or a relative who needs something car transportable for day trips out and stuff, I think it's quite good. It's not horribly expensive either. I wouldn't buy one, but I think for granny outings in the car, or similar it's pretty good. And no nasty swing-away leg rests. Although I'm not sure how easy it would be to get out of cos there's nowhere to put your feet on the ground?
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2018, 12:32

Its a tiny wheeled thing for indoors really with equally tiny range and no suspension with solid tyres... Its also a bit long. But its unusable by most paraplegics, tetraplegics, etc. And has funny controls... 2 hours in a shopping centre would kill that battery.

As for the cant put your feet on the ground part, then thats not a problem for me, most of us dont and cant do that anyway! We transfer via sliding across a board. But it doesn't allow that either!

As a portable shopping centre chair for those that could use it, the walking wounded, old people that are a bit weak etc its probably OK. Looks a bit like a disposable plastic kitchen tool though.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Scooterman » 03 Nov 2018, 13:02

Burgerman wrote:As a portable shopping centre chair for those that could use it, the walking wounded, old people that are a bit weak etc its probably OK. Looks a bit like a disposable plastic kitchen tool though.

I do agree with what you say, they're the sort of people I had in mind. I can get away with sticks and a manual chair indoors, but even so I wouldn't buy anything like that for outdoor. I'm really pleased with the salsa, I followed your advice here: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/choosin ... lchair.htm.

When first looking for my first powerchair I found the chose bewildering, much more so than when I bought my first scooter.
On my modified salsa because the armrest are fixed I have to get out the front of the chair. That's why I made the footplate retractable as I'd have never got out of the chair. But it's still a struggle, I knew it would be before I did it, but the increase in agility has been worth it. I tried in some small way to emulate the look of your BM chairs.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2018, 13:35

Thats a really old page!
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Scooterman » 03 Nov 2018, 15:16

Burgerman wrote:Thats a really old page!


Ah, but a goodie! I think your website is brilliant, I always keep on going back to it and re-reading. There's always something new (to me) that I stumble across which I haven't read before.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2018, 20:08

I wrote those in about 10 mins, never proof read them even. So there are repeated bits, grammatical errors, unfinished sentences etc. Was always going to go back and tidy them up. They were very rough initial notes, unfinished really! But you get the general idea.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby foghornleghorn » 03 Nov 2018, 21:19

Scooterman wrote:What do you think this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVdXduoS4vs

For someone or a relative who needs something car transportable for day trips out and stuff, I think it's quite good. It's not horribly expensive either. I wouldn't buy one, but I think for granny outings in the car, or similar it's pretty good. And no nasty swing-away leg rests. Although I'm not sure how easy it would be to get out of cos there's nowhere to put your feet on the ground?
It does say the feet bit folds up so you could try and stand in the gap to stand up. Then trip over the front wheels.

Heaviest bit when it's taken apart is 20kg and it only splits into 3 pieces with the other two being almost 15kg each. It's definitely not for the weak unless they have a helper.

Every picture and video of the Whill chairs the one thing that I always think is the person in it doesn't look comfortable. Even when it's someone able bodied doing a news report they look sat awkward and like they are one sneeze away from falling out.

Would love to know how many days the front wheels last before needing replacing.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2018, 23:25

Or all wrapped in carpet threads or mud. Remember unless you only go straight, then you are TURNING on tiny 1 inch wheels... :clap.

Which works ok on selected flat smooth areas, but a little bumpy. But anything soft or uneven and forget it. Shows it driving on gravel. It never shows it zero turn on it though, as it will just dig a hole and build a wall.

They are desperately trying to find a reason why those wheels are a good idea. They have been around for decades. You still only see them on robots etc on a factory floor for eg. Theres a reason for that. They have addressed a few things nobody asked for. And non of the things that we need. Now its all marketing bull.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Scooterman » 04 Nov 2018, 00:49

You both made good points I didn't think of.

"Style over substance" probably sums it up best.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2018, 08:29

That chair, is a spin off from the whil chair. Itself a typical example of what happens when a group of students are given a project. In that case it was designed by able bodied users to "get over the embarrassment of the ugly look of a standard powered wheelchair. They wanted to make a chair that was modern and "stylish".

So these students were all arty, and no clue about wheelchairs. So they drew a swoopy looking white plastic chair, with two big frying pans covering the weedy slow motors and cheap skinn wheels/tyres, and the small lead batteries, and the total lack of suspension. And the solid skinny 12 inch drive wheels. Because those bits are not interesting. So cover them up with big white frying pans, And then added a non standard oddball control system we dont want, and those robotic industrial robot front wheels. All making a chair that looked like a plastic food-mixer, with unusable controls, and a slow speed ride that shook your fillings out. And with little power, control, or range. But it wasn't embarrassing to be seen in. Because that plastic made it look cool. They think. Most think the opposite however. That was their concept. And thats how it got started.

Thats the reason there are also 101 off road "wheelchairs"... All useless.

And why theres 101 solutions that let a wheelchair climb stairs. All even more useless as actual daily usable wheelchairs than you could believe. But that never matters because well, it climbs steps!!! Something no wheelchair user would actually want if it detracted from the vast majority its daily usage. And it always does. That doesn't matter to them, they solved that problem that THEY invented for their project. That they went out to solve. But not for us, for THEM!!! Their college project. Then they think it will sell to us. These things are always impractical, like the whil, and all vanish without trace a few years on

Then every year on here around September we get another rash of questions about some new wheelchair the students are inventing that does something nobody needs. Or that is impractical. Or another project survey asking all the wrong leading questions.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby foghornleghorn » 04 Nov 2018, 11:34

Need to win the lottery and set up a student engineering challenge to make a wheelchair that will do 100 miles in a charge or a 24 hour distance challenge with re-charging allowed only off a standard plug socket and on board charging system.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2018, 12:04

Need to win the lottery and set up a student engineering challenge to make a wheelchair that will do 100 miles in a charge or a 24 hour distance challenge with re-charging allowed only off a standard plug socket and on board charging system.


If I read that, and wanted to compete in your challenge it would be a super skinny tired like a racing bike, hard-riding manual style chair, with tiller steer, single motor, long wheelbase, chair. With zero suspension, and a lithium ion battery (not lifepo4) and a brushless motor with bad low rpm control. That would win your challenge easily and be fast and produce a terrible powerchair!

Whereas, my stock 6.2 mph+ wheels, tyres, seat relocation Salsa, reprogrammed, with 8x 176Ah lifepo4 cells (they fit) and an on board Shirley power supply, and PL8 would be able to do 70 miles per charge. And be able to recharge by 40Ah, more than enough to finish the challenge, in 1 hour. That will be a better more capable chair, and do your 100 miles in under 18 hours. 6 to spare.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby foghornleghorn » 04 Nov 2018, 12:15

I didn't think it through. Basically would end up with a variation on the fantastic Greenpower scheme https://www.greenpower.co.uk/ not a useable wheelchair.

Maybe needs to start from a list of components that must be used including standard wheels and tyres, or even a certain powerchair - that still has to be able to function indoors too after modification.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2018, 12:40

The problem is the single nature of the challenge. This is exactly why we get useless powerchairs that can climb steps. That nobody wants to use!

The real solution is someone that understands MY needs, wants, preferences, and favorable compromises (yours will be different). And then have ONE person design a chair with these many different things which compete against one another in the right proportions.

So you think you would need a list of say 50 questions. And answer each one out of 10 as to how important each thing is. But...

If two of these questions were say weight, and range, then they are in direct opposition. So your questionnaire will not allow you to add these two fields up above 10 total. So you can answer one 9 but the other will be greyed out above 1... The real issue is that one parameter may change many other things. Say the next question is then stability... That means that if you tick 10 then it changes the max sensible speed, weight lower limit, CG, Seat lift height if thats in your requirements, etc etc. This is the problem. EVERY single parameter or desire, changes all the rest of your design compromises. So that in the end, a form, or some questions, or a list of must dos, needs, wants, dont make sense.

What you need is 1 guy that understands all the needs, priorities, engineering compromises and physics of each choice or compromise and how each changes the bigger picture. You need to design the thing AS ONE to best work together to have the best mix of compromises to suit a specific users needs, preferences, weight etc.

An example. Me, loves rear drive, doesn't particularly need lift or powered anything, but craves torque, range, and build quality and must have fat tyres and spends a lot of time outdoors across Fields, along the beach. Transfers sideways with a board. Best suited to something fast, light, and powerful. Like the extremely tippy and wheelie prone BM3 16mph fat tyre 45V lightweight rear drive chair with tubeless tyres etc. Programmed to go!

Compared to a quad that weighs 7 stone, falls forwards, needs harness, and doesn't need to go far. He needs powered seat functions, mostly stays indoors, and lift to reach stuff. He cant control speed, and seldom goes outdoors and transfers via carers and hoist. Best suited to heavy lead battery, for stability, and a mid drive chair as well as lower power 2 pole motors, 5 or 6 mph, every seating option possible, and solid tyres. Programmed to be slow and delayed to work with speciality controls. 2 completely different powerchairs. Neither of us could even USE each others chairs.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby foghornleghorn » 04 Nov 2018, 12:48

Challenge has only existed for just over an hour and we already need a rule book as thick as an encyclopaedia like Formula 1 :lol:

I agree, its the single parameter focus that makes all these type of projects no use.
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2018, 12:51

Updated above...
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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby ex-Gooserider » 05 Nov 2018, 23:56

Back to original question - I think the video chair would work, but it's WAY overpriced for what they claim, and doesn't do the portability job as well as some of the many Chinese made folding chairs that have hit the market in recent years....

So I don't think it would be a good choice for any one, as I think the Chinese folders do better for weight, portability, and aren't any worse for range and comfort...

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Re: Whill Model Ci

Postby MenCallMeGimpy » 12 Nov 2018, 22:15

The Spin the Globe Facebook group is run by a woman with MS who recently started using the Ci for her globe-trotting adventures. She seems to manage quite well with it, but she must have a stronger constitution than I, because all the cobblestones she rolls over would shatter me into fragments. I like the fact you can break the chair down small enough to fit in a car trunk, but aside from that, it looks a bit too plastic fantastic for my taste.
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