Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

[elryko1992]

super! you have work to do.

[Burgerman]

Job 1 Done.
The too low, wobbly, joystick, that was 3 inches too far to the right so it was impossible to have any proper control, and so it hits every door or frame is now fixed. Rock solid, sat in the correct place. 3 hours with a saw, bolts, imaginative rebuild of all the arms hardware in a better configuration. And rebuilt the swigaway hoe it should have been made to begin with. But its still a pain as it no longer swings out far enough to miss the Jay P shaped armrest pad. So need to make longer parts one day. But at least its now in the right place! All done on my bed as I am still on it...

Job 2 done. Provisionally.
This will take a month to get perfect. Programming absolutely undrivable! Also now fixed version 1 awaiting me getting up to test.

Seat looks relatively easy to move back. Only need 2.5 inches.
Arms need setting wider by 1.5 inch per side. Also reasonably easy.
Tyres and wheels more involved.
Footplate works well, electrically adjustable for length too. But will hit the tyres if seatmoved back. So smaller tyres will be needed. 280/250-4 instead of 3.00 x 4. And possibly a hacksaw adjustment to the plate rear corners.
Awaiting seat back.

[hank]

Will not look same chair in a month
more bespoke.

[Burgerman]

Many of the small detail changes such as correctly positioning the joystick is something that every chair and user absolutely needs. And to go with this, programing properly. These small things are absolutely funamental. And turn a chair thats a pig to use into a delight. But its not instantly visible.

This chair, the previous brushless one, and every other powerchair I see absolutely requires this to be able to drive and control it properly. And the 3 or 4 hours of pain required to remedy it. And yet I see every last chair out and about in the world being used just as it arrived. Just how do people manage, and why exactly dont the manufacturers understand this? These are absolutely basic things.

NON of the swingaways position things correctly, and every one allows the joystick to wobble about. Even the ARMS that they are mounted on wobble on most chairs. Thats why I opted for the single post arms. Instead of the weak, wobbly lift up ones. Its impossible to drive a chair thats programmed correctly with those!

[Burgerman]

Bad pics by my carer... Grey tyres. Old 5 inch thick home made foam cushion thats all distorted... And too dark to see much.

[Burgerman]

Now width adjusted. Ordered 18 inches. Measured stupid 15.5 betreen arm pads! So now widened by 2 inches to 20 inch base seat setup settings. Now measures 17.5 between arm tops. 19 where cushion goes... These designers are idiots. The 18or 20 refers to the outside of the seat/back rails. Not the width of the cushion/user!

Adjusted recline to go from minus -5 to 25, to now go from 0 to 40 degrees by messing with the linkage geometry.
Also set to a too steep "dump" default setting. So will reduce.

Next to move seat rearwards by 2 inches... And get up on sat to test. Then swap wheels/tyres. Fit tie down bolt. Lithium. And last of all make a better swingaway.

[Burgerman]

Quickie and permobil have a new one. Its also useless.

Note the wobbly ARM that its attached to. In what world do they think that this is acceptable? That wobble alone means no proper control. Then the swingaway... It wobbles around loosely too!

Its imprecise and its worse, it has detents at 45 180 and -45 which are all in the Wrong places. And it is way too low! When retracted inwards, it STILL sticks out on the outside while they demonstrate a doorway! Idiots. Completely clueless.

It needs to be MUCH more solid, not wobble, be 2 inches higher, and have a detent at 15 degrees inboard where your hand falls naturally. And be shorter.
Seems that I have to make one myself, after 24 hours searching every manufactuterers useless efforts!


youtu.be/zZR6WbKOlXM

[Burgerman]

Clothing guards are just flat plate steel on each arm are sat very high up on the chair, weigh about 4lb each! I can save 8lb and lower the CG by replacing them with a flat bit of plastic sheet. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Carbon-Effect- ... Sheet&th=1

Is this important? Its over half a stone! It will improve range, and stability, esp when the seat is raised. Just another small gain. Theres a lot of weight shedding to do yet. This 8, plus 60lb of battery lead when I go lithium, and about 5 lb of steel bolts in every lightly stressed area with black alloy anodised ones. Thats most of them.

That alone makes 73lb weight loss!

And I spied a lot of small but heavy steel brackets and things not required or too big to add to the list as we go. E.g. under the arm tops there are huge bits of 3mm steel brackets that are wildly over long, and offer dozens of bolt holes for mounting on different arms etc. Thats the problem with all modular stuff. Ends up looking like an explosion in a bracket factory where much of it serves no purpose for YOU. But I have a saw! A file. And a tin of satin black spray paint. Mine wont be modular but it will be much lighter.

And a heavy seat "plate". Why? Its pretty flat anyway. So cushion doesent require it, allowing the seat height to drop 4 or 5mm as well as saving more high up weight. Just need to order some velcro. Add another 1.5lb or so to the list!

The seat tilt/lift module (another module) duplicates strength already in the base/chassis for no reason. Its steel, really heavy, and could be built from lighter alloys or even carbon fibre. And so could the uber heavy seat base/arms! They are either dumb, or just dont care, or trying to save money. All of this high up weight screws up stability, and eats up your battery range. They only get away with the stability issue due to 112 lb of lead bricks sat in the bottom.

[Burgerman]

Ordered some 8-3.00 4 tyres. And tubes. I may or may not use them.

https://allterraintyres.co.uk/index.php ... ers_id=127

Because they are:
2 inch smaller and will allow the seat to go back another inch. But still 3 inch wide. And they have no tread. Perfect for caster tyres. And carpets.

And importantly they are puncture proof, k-shield! Kevlar layer built in. So no punctures. And are 4 ply so strong and good at higher weights...
And kenda tyres are well made and better still, they are black. And will fit the stock 4 inch wheels.

It will also lower the seat front by about 1 inch and reduce the angle of the seat dump, just right. I ordered it too steep by a couple of degrees.

They actually look like this:

[CPguy]

Do these 8-3.00 4 tyres also fit on the OEM caster rims of the F55 wheelchair please?

[Burgerman]

Yes. But instead of 9.7 inch they are 7.8 inches so a fair bit smaller diameter. Same width. Flat profile. You wont get a nice smooth ride, but it allows a centre footplate to sit 1.5 inch further back.

[CPguy]

Thank you for the quick reply! So I read the measurement correctly if they have a smaller diameter. Here in Vienna we have a large gap between the platform and the underground train. So I guess its time to measure!

[Burgerman]

I WOULD fit 280/250 - 4 as thats an in between diameter. But right now in the uk I cannot find any branded ones in black... Closest are 6 ply, aircraft tail wheel tyres in australia!

[Burgerman]

For those looking for strong quality tyres, in odd sizes http://www.waggabiketyres.com/lsa_tyres.html

[Burgerman]

So far:

-basic vers 1 reprogram.

-complete re assembly of arm to put the joystick in the correct place so easy to control properly and where every door frame wont wipe it out. And to stop the hopeless swingaway from allowing it to wobble all over making control impossible.

-Moved seat back. It only goes so far. But its a compromise. With lift, tilt, recline its important to heve CG in a position that wont let it topple over backwards at full lift/recline/tilt... And already the power centre footrest touches the tyres if fully back/down. Or rather the stupid footplate design allows the actuator atachment bolt to get in the way first! Designed by an idiot. So I now need to redesign centre footrest a little and move the actuator inboard by 20mm. The tyre touching issue will be cured by this, with my slightly smaller tyre diameter (to be changed to black/smaller)

-Seat dump... I ordered with 6 degrees. Options were: 0, 6, 12, 18. Well 6 turns out to be much more than 6! Leaving the seat at way too much of an angle and the seat front edge about 1.5 inches too high. And 0 is too flat and highly unconfortable. And allows the footplate to touch front wheels. So to get the tilt at the actual real 4 to 5 degree angle that I prefer required me to drill two more 8.5mm holes in the mounting brackets for the tilt/lift mounting mechanism. Now it sits at the perfect angle when tilt is fully "down".

-Seat depth, ordered 20 inches, measured 21... And the stupid what the footrest is designed means it adds another inch. So now 22. So I seat depth now reduced by 2 inches via built in adjustments.

Seat width. Would you believe that if you order a seat width of 18 inches you get 16? And 15.5 between arm tops? Me either. Reconfigured to their idea of 20 inches. This gives room for an 18 or 19 inch cushion and 17.5 between arm tops. Easy to do but took 1.5 hours.

-Seat back recline. As configured goes to minus 5 degrees and 25 degrees recline. After reconfiguring the thing my way I get 0 degrees to 35 degrees recline...

WHICH Still leaves, wheels, tyres, straightening of a bad weld that allows the left arm bracket to be a degree out of straight. And moving the lights to a place where they wont be destroyed by the first doorway. Final reprogramming. And throw away the mountain of scaffolding they suppled to mount a headrest. And fit a different aftermarket tall back with integrated headrest. And to fit RC to lets me move it around.

This said its good. With 120A controller, and 4 pole 6mph motors its got a lot of torque and it will be a great occasional chair. Just beats me why I have to do all this work to properly configure or FINISH a powerchair that cost me as much as a very cheap car! To most end users that dont have the tools or ability or OEM programming tools it will always be unfinished and problematic. Looks good in black.

[Burgerman]

Some partly reconfigured pics!

[Burgerman]

More...

[Burgerman]

.

[Burgerman]

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[Burgerman]

Still Needs wiring tidying up,cable ties etc.
And a jay3 tall, back, and headrest, (on its way)
And the tubeless rims and black tyres fitting...
And a lithium pack...
And a careful programming session.

[hank]

What width max will them tyre/wheel setup give you john

[Burgerman]

A fraction over 27.5. With 120 tyres. Unless I can win a litttle as theres a large motor tyre clearance of about 8mm each side. Thats 16mm wasted! 2mm is enough.

[hank]

Sound
look a different chair with wheel swap

[Burgerman]

Wontjust look it, withthe controller shifted to where it should have been, and CG,seatangle, footplate andactuator mods, and lightsmo
ved in, reprogrammed etcit will bea different chair.

[hank]

Yes your right John
Little adjustments all help but take time to dial everything in.

[elryko1992]

Nice! I wait to see how is look with new tyres

[Burgerman]

Fatter!

Bit the real reason is that mobility 3.00 - 8 tyres are a little fragile and thin. You can squash one in your hands easily. They have no build strength. And worse they are easy to puncture because of the weedy construction. And that puncture hits a balloon. Or a tube. So the tube expands arount the thorn, nail, glass splinter, and lets all the air out...

If you use tubeless rims, with a strongly constructed belted tubeless road tyre ike the 120/70 - 8 tyres, then a screw or nail picked up will result in a "low prwssure" tyre after a considerable time. The nail or whatever seals the puncture. The tube cannot grow around the object. Because its bnded to the internal face tothe tyre.

If you remove the offending object it often seals itself. The tyre is strong and rubber. The tube is bonded to it. If results in a slow puncture. This can be sealed forever with puncture seal fluid. Or topped up with air later on. Either way you do not get stranded!

[Burgerman]

Everyone will tell you that rear drive chairs are worse indoors. And thats true of every powerchair where the seat must be mounted too far forwards. So that the normal swing away footrests are able to clear the casters. They must be stuck ahead of the chair and in front of the caster wheels.

The result is a nose heavy chair that steers very badly and is too long indoors with your legs stuck out ahead. But a centre footplate cures the problem. If its small enough, it fits partly between the caster wheels. Allowing the seat and footplate(s) to sit around 3 or 4 inches further back, in a more reaward position. Which is why all my rear drive chairs use a centre footplate.

Search the web for rear drive chairs with centre footplate, its not common or easy to find! But you can push the manufacturers to fit the centre mount footplates that they normally fit to their centre wheel drive or front drive chairs. But they dont like it! Thats why you can't see a pic of a Jive/Salsa with a centre footplate and the same is true most of the other chairs out there. They think rear drive = swing away foot riggings.

However there can also be issues if you move the seat/footplate back to a more rearward position. Such as below. Note the shiny bolt sitting just behind the footplate in the exact place you do not want it! It holds the actuator on... And hits the tyre.

Note actuator/bolt. download/file.php?id=7609&mode=view
The other side is no problem. download/file.php?id=7610&mode=view

This pic shows (rather badly) that the footplate actuator end attaches to the side of the footplate, just behind the plate itself. Because it was designed by an idiot. So if/when you move the seat back, this bolt is the first thing that is in the way and it hits the caster tyre preventing you from doing so. This bolt/actuator is the reason you dont see centre footplates normally fitted or mentioned on sunrise's rear drive chairs. But I am going to move the bolt, the mounting, along with the actuator itself slightly. By just half an inch and make it shorter by a further half inch by moving it slightly inboard... As the manufacturer should have done! And that allows the clearance needed for the 10 inch casters. If I fit 9, or 8 inch casters I can move the seat back another inch or so. Which will also happen eventually. I may also cut off the rear corners from the over-wide footplate too. Allowing another inch...

[Burgerman]

- Offending footplate actuator bottom mount now modified and no longer an issue. Gained a full inch of tyre/footplate space. Neeeded a hacksaw and rose joint!
- Black and slightly smaller front tyres fitted also improving footplate clearance by another half inch.
- Cables all titied up.
- Frint lights relocated to a position where they wont be destroyed.
- removed dozens of bone dry shafts on footplate, bolts etc and front wheel axles/bolts that were never greased on assembly. Greased and reassembled.

Previously
- Seat dump angle changed by drilling 2 x 8mm holes and adjusting angle.
- Seat moved back 2 inches on rails.
- Arms, swing away redesigned/reconfigured to put controller in the right place, and width adjusted.
- Seat depth djusted and seat recline increased 5 degrees.
- reprogrammed. And disabled many speed restrictions and inhibits in programming. Increased many speed limits for turtle mode. Renamed many functions on the lift, tilt, recline, foot functions etc.

And this chair is looking good. All fixes essential but pretty minor. Probably the best or only candidate as an over the counter decent rear drive powerchair on the market. Other than tom kilmore? Albeit with a few minor fixes and maybe 4 hours fine tuning work. 9 out of 10!

Just the rear wheels and adapters to go.

[Burgerman]

Tyre son caster wheels.
Rear tyres fitted to rims
Lights moved...

Just need to make adaptersto fit the tubeless rear wheels to the chair. The stock tyres are about 10mm from the motors. So as far as I know I can use up some of that! So the 120mm wide new rears will not stick out as far as I thought.