LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

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LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby quadcopter » 04 Mar 2019, 16:02

Hi to All.
I have Permobil C500S Power Wheelchair.
It has power module PM100 (80A continuous discharge and 100A peak).

Now I use group 24 lead acid AGM 12V 70Ah batteries which are dying.
I want to replace them by LiFePo4 batteries.
So could you help me with next questions:

1. What batteries do I need? I mean tech specs like capacity, continuous discharge, peak discharge etc.
2. What charger do I need?
3. Can you recommend proved vendor?

Thanks.

PermobilC500S_specs.png
Permobil C500S specs
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby swalker » 04 Mar 2019, 18:42

I have 2 Permobil C500 wheelchairs, a C500s VS and a C500 Corpus 3G.

I am currently building up a LiFePO4 battery for a Magic Mobility X4 wheelchair, which takes group 24 batteries like the C500 does. You can follow my build here: https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... f=2&t=8642

I have sized my battery pack to fit in the C500. If things go well for the X4 build I may build a LiFePO4 battery for one of my C500 wheelchairs.

You will need to build the battery packs from individual LiFePO4 cells. Whether you do that with cylindrical or prismatic cells will be a decision you will need to make. Most folks building packs now are using prismatic cells. In the past, cylindrical cells were more often used.

You will want to pack in as many amp hours as you can in an 8s configuration. You will need a special charger (Revolectrix PL8) and power supply for the charger.

In the first post for my X4 battery build you can find a spreadsheet of the various components I am using for my build. Note that I would not yet recommend the LiFePO4 cells I selected, as the ones I received are bulging and apparently used.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
Magic Mobility X4 with 176 Ah LiFePO4
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby expresso » 04 Mar 2019, 23:54

https://winston-battery.en.made-in-chin ... phate.html

on this catalog theres an 100ah Cell also - looks promising size wise - if it fits the space you have -
Attachments
Catalogue.xls
(149.5 KiB) Downloaded 87 times
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Burgerman » 05 Mar 2019, 00:36

So... As usual. HOW do we buy them?
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby expresso » 05 Mar 2019, 02:40

I will look for the site when I am on computer. But u can search the company name on top in the catalog Alibaba site.
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby expresso » 05 Mar 2019, 05:54

:hammer
Burgerman wrote:So... As usual. HOW do we buy them?


https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 3f51YmB5UC

maybe having a half off shipping this month i believe - contact them - ask what you need to know etc, they will make up a order with details etc, cost shipping and thats it - you pay - and sit back wait :joint

the other cell 105ah - you have to contact them on the bottom of the page and ask the supplier for details cost - shipping etc,

its all on that page the info you need to get in touch with them.
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Burgerman » 05 Mar 2019, 11:09

Emailed the 105Ah guy. Can fit 16 of those. Subject to careful measuring. So 210Ah. IF they are what they claim!!!

If you get a real 35Ah from a set of MKs before it stops (and you do going by my testing in the past), then thats 6x the stock ISO 26 mile range. If we say HALF that iso range we get 78 miles! :lol:

Or if we say 2Ah per mile its 105 miles.
Even at a pretty crap 3Ah per mile like expressos 12mph bounder its still 70 miles...

Still saving though. Then will order 17. Fit the best 16. Use one for some testing and as a spare.
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby shirley_hkg » 05 Mar 2019, 11:35

Beware !
EVE-LF105 is rare to find , and it sells over £70 NEW a piece .
cheers
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Burgerman » 05 Mar 2019, 11:41

I am inclined to agree. These are CALB cell too.

I may just order 16 of your 90Ah ones.
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby quadcopter » 05 Mar 2019, 14:38

expresso wrote:https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 3f51YmB5UC
maybe having a half off shipping this month i believe - contact them - ask what you need to know etc, they will make up a order with details etc, cost shipping and thats it - you pay - and sit back wait :joint
the other cell 105ah - you have to contact them on the bottom of the page and ask the supplier for details cost - shipping etc,
its all on that page the info you need to get in touch with them.

Did you order from this seller?
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Williamclark77 » 05 Mar 2019, 17:12

I just ordered a bunch of 92ah cells from https://www.rj-lithium.com. Quick response to emails, good price, quick shipping (expensive though by air from China), and the cells seem good. Haven't tested or built the pack from them yet.
WcMade.com - Get nearly anything you need made
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Gnomatic » 05 Mar 2019, 18:39

Burgerman wrote:I am inclined to agree. These are CALB cell too.



Is CALB not a good brand?
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Burgerman » 05 Mar 2019, 19:07

Yes. But the price is usually high.
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby expresso » 05 Mar 2019, 20:05

Burgerman wrote:I am inclined to agree. These are CALB cell too.

I may just order 16 of your 90Ah ones.


90ah - 105ah - close enough either way - if price is too high for 105ah - 90 would be just as good - they seem to be a bit less than stated on most cells - i would say - 105ah Cell - if you get 95ah of usable - thats great - 90ah - if you get 80ah out same thing great - anything more even better
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby expresso » 05 Mar 2019, 20:08

quadcopter wrote:
expresso wrote:https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 3f51YmB5UC
maybe having a half off shipping this month i believe - contact them - ask what you need to know etc, they will make up a order with details etc, cost shipping and thats it - you pay - and sit back wait :joint
the other cell 105ah - you have to contact them on the bottom of the page and ask the supplier for details cost - shipping etc,
its all on that page the info you need to get in touch with them.

Did you order from this seller?



i have not ordered from this seller yet - i do believe others have - this Cell 100ah - at $65 each is great price - i wish i found this before when i needed to get some -

50% OFF Air shipping this month from Alibaba promotion -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby expresso » 05 Mar 2019, 20:12

Williamclark77 wrote:I just ordered a bunch of 92ah cells from https://www.rj-lithium.com. Quick response to emails, good price, quick shipping (expensive though by air from China), and the cells seem good. Haven't tested or built the pack from them yet.



Nice good to know more places - i seen those before also - let us know how they are once you start charging discharging - i be curious to know how much you get out of them - full 92ah or 85ah etc, which would be great if you get at least 85ah usable
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby shirley_hkg » 06 Mar 2019, 02:22

Burgerman wrote:I am inclined to agree. These are CALB cell too.

I may just order 16 of your 90Ah ones.


No Rush .

Wait and see the actual results first .
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby quadcopter » 06 Mar 2019, 12:51

So if I get 8 of these 100Ah or 120Ah batteries are they fine for my wheelchair?
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Burgerman » 06 Mar 2019, 13:03

Which wheechair?
Which battery cells?

If its a grp24 chair, you should be fitting more than 100Ah today, as theres a multitude of new cell sizes and options available. The ones above allow you to fit 16 cells I think.

I will be fitting 16 of 90Ah ones in the salsa probably in the near future. Giving me 180Ah. Via shirley.
Remember that these are low rate cells. So you must maximise Ah fitted.

These should fit yours too. But measure accurately first!!!
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby quadcopter » 07 Mar 2019, 13:02

Burgerman wrote:Which wheechair?

I described the wheelchair above:
Permobil C500S, power module PM100 (80A continuous discharge and 100A peak).
Two 24 group lead acid AGM 12V 70Ah.

Burgerman wrote:Which battery cells?

I meant 100Ah and 120Ah batteries the link was posted above:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Long-cycle-life-Rechargeable-lifepo4-battery_60787932515.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.82.5.49843f51YmB5UC
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Rechargeable-LiFePO4-car-lion-Battery-3_60785085466.html?spm=a2700.wholesale.pronpeci14.2.4a0a3e56mRm2YP
They have standard discharge current 100A and 120A.
Is it enough for my wheelchair?

Burgerman wrote:If its a grp24 chair, you should be fitting more than 100Ah today, as theres a multitude of new cell sizes and options available. The ones above allow you to fit 16 cells I think.

I would like to buy more but my budget is limited.
My usual trip is about 10 km. Sometimes 15 km.
Do 100Ah/120Ah batteries allow me to run these trips and have long batteries life?
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Burgerman » 07 Mar 2019, 14:22

Your chair can take 100A per motor when zero turning, or climbing a ramp etc. So not really. 200A?

Before these fancy new options and sizes appeared, a few years ago and we were fitting 90 to 120Ah batteries, C rate was important. Thats why I used headways with 10C capability, 3C continuous.

The higher capacity prismatic cells are 1C cont to 2C pulse and that means you would be torturing them now and again. If it was not possible to fit more Ah than before. But it is! These new sizes allow this. Lithium 2.0. So we can now fit 180 to 200Ah in the same grp24 volume. So the lower C rate isnt a problem.

Will fitting 120Ah work? Yes. Probably quite well. They will suffer a higher deterioration rate however, and will be discharged more deeply daily. That rated 2000 cycles is at 0.3C normally. Double that and reduce cycle life. The smaller pack means deeper average DOD too which also helps destroy them faster. But still better than lead I would expect. But by not maximising capacity you are throwing away much of the reaon going to lithium. That is very long lifespan, and huge range improvements. And over half the battery area will be empty!

Lets say you get 40Ah from the MKs before you stop. In say 15 miles.
Allowing for a 20% reserve, the 100Ah lithium will double that. So 30 miles.
But fitting 200Ah means 4x 15 miles. So 60 miles with a huge 40Ah still in reserve! So actual range would be 75 miles if required...
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby quadcopter » 08 Mar 2019, 14:20

Burgerman wrote:Your chair can take 100A per motor when zero turning, or climbing a ramp etc. So not really. 200A?

Sorry, not clear for me.
Do you mean my wheelchair takes 200A?
The Permobil Owner's manual has only data I posted above (PM100 power module).
I mailed Permobil site and they answered:
The power module would be 100A. This means that the peak is 100A and the settings for continuous power is set to 80A.
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Burgerman » 08 Mar 2019, 14:41

PER CHANNEL. Or PER MOTOR.

Your motors take around 100A each on a zero turn or climbing a ramp. Thats 200A for a pair. Intermittently. The motors take only around 5A each running at constant speed with no load. Maybe 30A as you drive up a very slight hill.

The permobil guy has no clue. I actually MEASURED this on many chairs.

Theres a complication here thou to muddy the waters.
The motor Amps is not always the same as battery Amps. With high impedance motors, the motors may be drawing 100A at stall each, but still only show say 100 Battery Amps. As speed increases, the motor Amp level stays the same if load stays the same. But battery Amps increase along with the pulsewidth. With high impedance motors MORE battery amps are used.


So yes your chair can take 200A . If its a 120A R-Net system, it can actually take 240A for up to 10 seconds. Measured on my Salsa chair.
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Burgerman » 08 Mar 2019, 14:48

Here is a AMP METER clamped over a single motor cable. I extended one wire from the left motor.
Remember that the OTHER motor is doing the same thing, but we are not measuring that one.

100A power module. ONE CHANNEL measured at the L motor alone. DOUBLE this for 2 motors...

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/motoramps.mp4
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby quadcopter » 09 Mar 2019, 13:16

What about a charger?
swalker recommended Revolectrix PL8 above.
What else choices do I have?
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby Burgerman » 09 Mar 2019, 15:20

None that are any good.
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby quadcopter » 09 Mar 2019, 21:54

Burgerman wrote:None that are any good.

Do you mean that Revolectrix PL8 is the best?
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby steves1977uk » 09 Mar 2019, 22:43

Yep, the PL8 is the recommended charger for LiFePO4 cells. Of course you could use a BMS (yuck! :thumbdown: ) with a dumb charger, but you will get problems with it cutting the power too soon, unbalanced cells, etc...

So do it right the first time and get the PL8! :thumbup:

Steve
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby expresso » 09 Mar 2019, 23:28

yes dont waste your time and money on a BMS and dumb chargers - i started with a BMS - took 2 weeks to realize its not good - not unless you have no other choice - if you build your own - dont use BMS - if you get a chair already built with lithium - it will have a BMS like one of my chairs and i leave that one alone till it stops working on me and i will redo it my way - not rushing to do it - let it work for next 5 years abused drunk2
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: LiFePo4 for Permobil C500S

Postby quadcopter » 10 Mar 2019, 20:35

Burgerman wrote:I am inclined to agree. These are CALB cell too.

What does CALB mean?
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