Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

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Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby baker99 » 09 May 2019, 12:40

My Frontier X5 is now beginning to show it's age, I got it second hand in 2012, so I'm thinking it's time to think about buying a new one. It's been suggested that a storm 4 x-plore with true track plus would be a good option.

Does anyone have experience with this chair?

My initial thought was a V6 would be the best option to replace my X5.

From the specs it looks like the Storm 4 a better range than the V6 and good suspension system, but am I going to actually travel over 30 miles as I need a carer with me 24/7 anyway.

It looks like it has much less power, can handle less steep slopes and is longer. I have also come to like mid-wheel drive due to it's tight turning circle and it seems good to manoeuvre in crowds too, but I'm aware rear wheel drive may be better in other situations like off road. The tyres also don't look as good to me personally, but maybe it's suspension and larger front wheels compensate for this?

Anyway opinions would be appreciated so I can make an educated decision and give good arguments to the shop that's suggesting it.

Thanks,

Daniel.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 09 May 2019, 13:34

I had a storm 4 explore.

Its got serious issues.

Indoors, a simple left or right zero speed turn sucks a massive 190A from the battery measure. Drive about your room for 3 mins and it shuts doen due to overheated controller. And the battery lasts around 1 hour doing this. Making it unusable indoors.

With seperate leg rests as stock its MASSIVELY long and nose heavy. Again making it unusable as stock. I moved the seating rearwards and had a centre footrest so that it can fit your heels between the front tyres. Making it steer better, but again the brushless direct drive motors murder the controller and eat batteries and it will cease to move if you are active indoors. I fitted 110/80-8 tyres and widened the rear rims. Because as stock the tyres are way too skinny.

Outdoors the suspension is the best you will find on a chair. And at constant speed its also got the best range. As long as you never try turning indoors!
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 09 May 2019, 13:37

Seat moved back
Centre power footrest
black tyres
wider rear tyres
widened rear rims
lights relocated inboard
swing away 'fixed' as too waffy...
Footrest sprayed black
Arms rejigged.
push handles removed.
12V and 24 Volt charge at hi amps enabled.
SEVERE reprogramming... Since it was like sailing a boat.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 09 May 2019, 13:50

My opinion?

Get the V6 or the rear drive version. And fit lithium, get 4 to 5x the range.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby baker99 » 09 May 2019, 14:26

Thanks BM very much appreciated as always, I knew this was the best place to ask.

Another idea I had was keeping the X5 as a backup when it's fixed and using it for any indoor stuff. Then looking at the X8 for outdoors, it looks to be a similar size, would it be worth doing that or is the V6 adequate with no major benefit in an X8? I'm not likely to be mountain climbing living in the UK really, although going on a beach would be nice, I tried in the X5 and several large Welsh men had to dig and push me back to solid ground!

I will get whichever chair reprogrammed, the X5 feels better after some minor reprogramming, I'm a little limited as I use a low force mini joystick not having the muscle power to use a standard stick.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby rover220 » 09 May 2019, 14:28

baker99 wrote:Thanks BM very much appreciated as always, I knew this was the best place to ask.

Another idea I had was keeping the X5 as a backup when it's fixed and using it for any indoor stuff. Then looking at the X8 for outdoors, it looks to be a similar size, would it be worth doing that or is the V6 adequate with no major benefit in an X8? I'm not likely to be mountain climbing living in the UK really, although going on a beach would be nice, I tried in the X5 and several large Welsh men had to dig and push me back to solid ground!

I will get whichever chair reprogrammed, the X5 feels better after some minor reprogramming, I'm a little limited as I use a low force mini joystick not having the muscle power to use a standard stick.


if you are using special controls i would be inclned to use only a chair with rnet controls and use the new omni 2 with built in bluetooth and ir control.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby baker99 » 09 May 2019, 14:33

Just checked the x8 speccs, awful turning circle and range with standard batteries, I'm probably better going for the v6.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby baker99 » 09 May 2019, 14:35

rover220 wrote:
if you are using special controls i would be inclned to use only a chair with rnet controls and use the new omni 2 with built in bluetooth and ir control.


Interesting, I think the the frontier uses P&G with rnet
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby swalker » 09 May 2019, 16:33

I have a Magic Mobility X4, which is the predecessor to their X8.

In my opinion, this is not a general purpose wheelchair.

I love its four wheel drive capability outdoors and have taken it on many adventures. My X4 had a very limited range on lead acid batteries (about 4 miles). We just finished putting in LiFePo4 batteries, which has made a wonderful difference in the range (over 30 miles).

The negatives of the X4 (and I presume the X8) are:
  • It is very difficult to drive backwards. Because of the steering geometry, it is deviates from the intended path in an increasingly divergent manner when going backwards. I have read that the X8 has an option to lock the position of the front wheels to make backing up easier. Backing up is possible, but it is hard.
  • It has a very wide turning radius. It can be used indoors, but only when there is a LOT of room.
  • The only suspension is that which is provided by the pneumatic tires
  • The controller overheats and shuts down often. As you would expect, this happens most when navigating tight spaces. This makes it frustrating to use indoors. I have read that the X8 is better in this regard, but I would be surprised if it is a lot better.
  • Only pneumatic tires are available. That is fine with me, but may be an issue for others.
  • The range is simply too limited with lead acid batteries. I would only get an X8 if I was planning to do an immediate conversion to LiFePO4.

Even with all those negatives, I love my X4 and am very happy to have it. My point is that it is not suitable as an every day wheelchair. As a specialized wheelchair for outdoor use, it has allowed me to go places I otherwise could not go.

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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 09 May 2019, 16:36

I have a Magic Mobility X4, which is the predecessor to their X8.

In my opinion, this is not a general purpose wheelchair.


Thats because bothe are scooters. Not powerchairs! Not remotely comparable.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 09 May 2019, 16:43

Of course you live in uk.

So why not the new sunrise chair?

They also still do the MID and REAR and FRONT drive versions of the Salsa. for e.g.
Heres mine...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600
It can be ordered, with 120A R-Net, and 4 pole 6 mph motors. As mine is. And centre power footrest, so seating can be adjusted rearwards again as mine is. And of course I fitted a set of tubeless wider rims/tyres as you do as well...

Or the newer https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... sedeo-ergo
or mid drive versions?
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Scooterman » 09 May 2019, 17:44

Why have you got two Andersons BM, and why the link?
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby wheelie junkie » 09 May 2019, 17:46

baker99 wrote:
rover220 wrote:
if you are using special controls i would be inclned to use only a chair with rnet controls and use the new omni 2 with built in bluetooth and ir control.


Interesting, I think the the frontier uses P&G with rnet


I've got a DX and R Net/Omni both with light touch/short throw joystick. You definitely need to be able to program them, some of my turn settings are below 10% which is unheard of for a hand joystick. Can't really compare the different systems adjustments as my DX uses a servo module for steering and has numerous ways to change the steering at different speeds. R Net has greater control on speed settings. I had little choice but to learn how to program as dealers could not give enough time to dial it in plus as you get used to the chair you can tweak settings as you improve.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby baker99 » 09 May 2019, 18:07

Burgerman wrote:Of course you live in uk.

So why not the new sunrise chair?

They also still do the MID and REAR and FRONT drive versions of the Salsa. for e.g.
Heres mine...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600
It can be ordered, with 120A R-Net, and 4 pole 6 mph motors. As mine is. And centre power footrest, so seating can be adjusted rearwards again as mine is. And of course I fitted a set of tubeless wider rims/tyres as you do as well...

Or the newer https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... sedeo-ergo
or mid drive versions?


Thanks I'll have a look at that too :)
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby baker99 » 09 May 2019, 18:08

swalker wrote:I have a Magic Mobility X4, which is the predecessor to their X8.

In my opinion, this is not a general purpose wheelchair.

I love its four wheel drive capability outdoors and have taken it on many adventures. My X4 had a very limited range on lead acid batteries (about 4 miles). We just finished putting in LiFePo4 batteries, which has made a wonderful difference in the range (over 30 miles).

The negatives of the X4 (and I presume the X8) are:
  • It is very difficult to drive backwards. Because of the steering geometry, it is deviates from the intended path in an increasingly divergent manner when going backwards. I have read that the X8 has an option to lock the position of the front wheels to make backing up easier. Backing up is possible, but it is hard.
  • It has a very wide turning radius. It can be used indoors, but only when there is a LOT of room.
  • The only suspension is that which is provided by the pneumatic tires
  • The controller overheats and shuts down often. As you would expect, this happens most when navigating tight spaces. This makes it frustrating to use indoors. I have read that the X8 is better in this regard, but I would be surprised if it is a lot better.
  • Only pneumatic tires are available. That is fine with me, but may be an issue for others.
  • The range is simply too limited with lead acid batteries. I would only get an X8 if I was planning to do an immediate conversion to LiFePO4.

Even with all those negatives, I love my X4 and am very happy to have it. My point is that it is not suitable as an every day wheelchair. As a specialized wheelchair for outdoor use, it has allowed me to go places I otherwise could not go.

Steve


Very helpful, thanks, definitely not good for what I need, although looks amazing for off road.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 09 May 2019, 18:42

Be aware that the caster forks are closer together on the Q700 chairs than on the Salsa. Meaning that you cannot move the centre footplate back, between the casters, and so the sat cannot go as far back. Meaning that the rear drive version will not steer as well as the salsa. So for my money the salsa is better than the newer one. But it requires a lot more tidying up. To make it a decent looking and functioning chair. But once done and with the CORRECT OPTIONS its better.

baker99 wrote:
Burgerman wrote:Of course you live in uk.

So why not the new sunrise chair?

They also still do the MID and REAR and FRONT drive versions of the Salsa. for e.g.
Heres mine...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600
It can be ordered, with 120A R-Net, and 4 pole 6 mph motors. As mine is. And centre power footrest, so seating can be adjusted rearwards again as mine is. And of course I fitted a set of tubeless wider rims/tyres as you do as well...

Or the newer https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... sedeo-ergo
or mid drive versions?


Thanks I'll have a look at that too :)
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 09 May 2019, 19:09

Why have you got two Andersons BM, and why the link?


ALL my lead chairs do.

810_1776-smaller.JPG
THE LINK JOINS THE TWO BATTERIES TOGETHER IN SERIES.
The terminals on those connectors are in logical order. The rear battery, on one anderson. The front battery on the front anderson. And the series link in the chairs wiring loom is removed and thrown in the bin! The new one, is that loop.


Remember that chairs and scooters are 24V. Where vehicles are generally 12V. This arangement allows you to charge from any 12V charger in PARALLEL so as to balance both batteries or directly from a cars system as I do as I drive. It means that you can charge from your or any car. Call a taxi if stuck. And plug a cable in, for 12V, then connect to a car. I have 2 andersons in different places in my van.
One is external, used for starting the van if needed FROM THE CHAIR. so I never get stranded.
Pic... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... l-arch.jpg
And an example of starting a dead battery diesel van in the street for a freind... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/starter.mp4
And one is internal... Used every time I drive. It charges at up to 100A as I am on the way home from wherever...
See here, charging at 49A at the time http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... arging.jpg

So you need to disconnect the series link, in the battery area, and then send batt 1 and battery 2 terminal connections to a seperate link externally so that you can reconnect as 24V to drive the chair.

It has these advantages.
Pulling the link, means you can store it in a garage or wherever for 6 months or longer and not need to charge. Since it breas the circuit and the chair takes non. A chairs system takes 6 to 20mA aproxx when turned OFF. Meaning normally a top up every 10 days or so is wise. This stops the residual drain current. Also means a carer cannot leave it on or turn it on in error...

And you can also charge with any 24V charger, too! And charge at 24V. It means you can also start a 24V vehicle like a bus, truck, big van, boat, or run a 24V AC inverter for mains power! Ultimate flexibility.

How is it wired?
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/faster- ... arging.htm

Image

I like flexibility. I can run my house and everything in it from 1 to 3 chairs. I can run the PL8 from the chairs at the hobby flying feild. I can start my van once plugged in, even if its battery is flat, or make the ramp work and get in. And start it from the inside. Once I have the engines alternator charges the van, and my chair at 14.4V and 100A fast.

The chair can charge at 24V from any 24V charger or power supply as per normal too. I think all this stuff up just to give you all headaches.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby swalker » 10 May 2019, 21:06

Burgerman wrote:
I have a Magic Mobility X4, which is the predecessor to their X8.

In my opinion, this is not a general purpose wheelchair.


Thats because bothe are scooters. Not powerchairs! Not remotely comparable.


While the X4 certainly has limitations that make it unsuited for use as a primary wheelchair, it is far from what I consider to be a scooter.

The commonality it has with a scooter is limited to having 4 wheels of the same size and lacking agility.

The differences include:
  • All scooters I am aware of have tillers for steering. The X4 uses a joystick module. I can't use a tiller, so scooters are out of the question for me.
  • The X4 has skid steering. I don't know of any scooters that use skid steering.
  • The X4 has a high-backed supportive seat with a headrest. Most scooters seem to have a low seat back without a headrest. The X4 and X8 were/are available with full rehab seating, which scooters seem to lack.
  • The X4 and X8 have 4 drive motors. I don't know of any scooters with more than 2 motors.

I am not advocating an X4 or X8 as a general purpose wheelchair, but I do believe it is a bit of hyperbole to proclaim that they are simply scooters.

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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 11 May 2019, 01:19

The commonality it has with a scooter is limited to having 4 wheels of the same size and lacking agility.


No. The primary difference is tank steering and casters allowing turn in place etc, rather than front wheel of the car/scooter type steering.

Its not to do with having a joystick. or wheel sizes. Cars are often converted with a joystick, for disability use, and many industrial machines and such have joystick steering and they are not wheelchairs either.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby terry2 » 11 May 2019, 17:13

Burgerman wrote:I had a storm 4 explore.

Its got serious issues.

Indoors, a simple left or right zero speed turn sucks a massive 190A from the battery measure. Drive about your room for 3 mins and it shuts doen due to overheated controller. And the battery lasts around 1 hour doing this. Making it unusable indoors.

With seperate leg rests as stock its MASSIVELY long and nose heavy. Again making it unusable as stock. I moved the seating rearwards and had a centre footrest so that it can fit your heels between the front tyres. Making it steer better, but again the brushless direct drive motors murder the controller and eat batteries and it will cease to move if you are active indoors. I fitted 110/80-8 tyres and widened the rear rims. Because as stock the tyres are way too skinny.

Outdoors the suspension is the best you will find on a chair. And at constant speed its also got the best range. As long as you never try turning indoors!



That the chair with the brushless motors isn't it?

I'm hoping to get a second hand one for about £2,000
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 11 May 2019, 17:22

Dont!
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby terry2 » 11 May 2019, 17:29

Burgerman wrote:Dont!



How about a Meyra Optimus2 RS? It will be used just for out doors.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 11 May 2019, 17:31

Dont know much about those.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby terry2 » 11 May 2019, 17:37

Burgerman wrote:Dont know much about those.



Well my motors will cost over £1,800 this year.
So I may as try another make of chair. I should have £2,000 in a few months.
The Meyra Optimus2 RS looks really good.
I think it's got a steering rack at the back.
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Burgerman » 11 May 2019, 18:23

Its a rear steer front drive scooter. Think fork lift truck. The fact that it doesent use a wheelchairs tank steer, and so has no free rotating casters means that unlike a powerchair it will not waste battery power steering in a straight line on a camber. it goes where its pointed. So you should get good range. Esp with its bigger battery area. Grp27 I think?
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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Scooterman » 13 May 2019, 08:00

A lot of large scooters have high back seat with headrest, called a captain’s seat. Although as you say it’s not rehab seating, but the seats are pretty comfortable for those who can use scooters. Plus cos seat is mounted on one central 1.5” steel tube it swivels 360 which is handy and has a degree of flex which give the seat some suspension like qualities.

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Re: Opinions on storm 4 x-plore with true track plus?

Postby Dan » 15 May 2019, 19:22

I have a storm 4 x-plore with true track plus used exclusively outside and for me its great. Whats best about it is the way it handles bumpy roads at 8MPH which is the main reason I bought it, living in the countryside there are loads of bumpy back roads. Its allso great across bumpy paths and cobblestones.

It has never cut out from over heating.
It has about 17 miles range a 8MPH but a lot less if you stop and start a lot. I weigh less than 80KG.
I have never met a ramp it would not go up. But I think its a good idea to keep moving and not test it.
The seat is low for a chair with a riser. 17 inches to the part which holds the cushion.
I have done a few hundred miles in it and its a nice chair to drive.
It does have some problems.
The brakes suck, There is a chance that if you try and stop on a ramp the brakes will fail.
It has locked its self up three times in the past but it reset ok when turned off then on, it has stopped doing that since it was reprogrammed.


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