PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby cavorite » 28 Nov 2018, 13:37

OK. Limiting the charger to 10 A due to XLR. Next step up in current would be 15 A. I am leery of the internal wiring at that rate.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby cavorite » 01 Dec 2018, 00:42

cavorite wrote:The Q6 battery area is very tight on width. The PC1200 fits with room to spare, but the next size up wouldn’t work. (Going by measurements.)


CORRECTION

ONE PC1200 fits in the box. TWO PC1200s do NOT fit! Well, they fit to a degree. The battery is too wide, two of them project out the front by a couple of inches. SOMEONE (Odyssey or Pride) is playing a little fast and loose with the definition of a 22NF battery size. banghead banghead

MK’s 22NF fits fine. I guess I’m the first person (on the internet, anyway) who has ever tried to put PC1200s in a Q6 Edge. For the record: Don’t do it.

I’m left with trying to return batteries long distance (not seller’s fault, they sent what I requested), or finding some fabrication magician to make an extended front cover for the battery box. As is, it’s usable indoors but would never risk outdoors without battery restraints.

:cussing :cussing :cussing
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby cavorite » 01 Dec 2018, 06:06

The numbers do not lie:

22NF
9 7/16 x 5 1/2 x 8 15/16 (LWH, inches)

PC1200
7 7/8 x 6 11/16 x 6 13/16 (over 1” wider)


New Possibility: Group 51
Group 51 appears to be very similar to 22NF:
9 3/8 x 5 1/16 x 8 13/16

While Odyssey doesn’t have anything close to a group 51, Optima does(!)

Optima Yellowtop D51
9.31 x 5.06 x 8.94 (0.94 = 15/16)

So, the Optima D51 seems like it just might be an ACTUAL replacement for a 22NF. Yes, it looks a little down on capacity and performance vs the PC1200, but I am thinking this is still a better choice for me than going with MK. And the PC1200 is not going to fit, period.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 01 Dec 2018, 10:33

The optima is worse than the MK. The PC1200 is not a 22nf. The real problem is that whoever designed the chair was trying to make it narrow. And so it cant fit "full sized" grp24 batteries that are required for most users.

When you buy a chair. Priorities:

Battery. GRP24 is essential.
Controller, 100A or bigger.
Availability by legal, or other means of an OEM level programmer to YOU...
6MPH. Preferably not slower, and faster only if you are a ballerina.
4 pole motors.


Those 5 things, are the basis for a decent chair and are basic bare minimum essentials. After this, the rest is all pretty much irrelevant. Its all seating, colours, etc. Preferably avoid mid drive too if you do much outdoors, and front drive if you like a chair that is good at speed and handles properly once programmed to respond properly.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby cavorite » 01 Dec 2018, 12:50

You’re quite correct, the PC1200 is not a 22NF. However, Odyssey, for whatever reason, says it’s their recommended replacement for a 22NF. That bit of erroneous information is going to cost me.

I know the Optima is worse, the question is whether it’s preferrable to an MK 22NF.


The chair, a Q6, is what it is. I have to live within its limitations for the foreseeable future.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby expresso » 01 Dec 2018, 22:25

sorry to hear that - from my short lived experience with PC 1500 - didnt fit my chair either - i learned hard way also - i did manage to use mines for a summer in my other chair - which didnt fit good either - but being a plastic box and cover - i managed to shove them in there - not able to close the top cover nicely - but i used them that one for one summer before i took them out for a new set of MK Gels at the time - and they are sitting here ever since for a few years now easy - i just charge them once a month or two - most of our chairs are made to fit a certain battery and thats it - no wiggle room - as a direct drop in .

good thing for me was i didnt pay for them - got them covered - who knows if i ever put them back in a chair one day -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Mechniki » 16 Jan 2019, 12:04

Burgerman wrote:They charge at 14.1 volt. or 14.4V. Likely the wrong one...

They then float on the charger at 13.6v. Indefinitely.

When removed, they will drop over time to 12.85 eventually IF FULLY CHARGED. But lower if not. Were they on charge for at least 24 hours? Its a THREE AMP charger, and the float after the green light continues the charge. So leave them on for a full day.

But if you have not been doing this, for say 12 to 16 hours, then they are likely ruined by now anyway.

Also your photos are too small... Cant see any details.

sorry about the pictures, I have been shrinking them down in paint, I am having trouble remembering how to do things - I am replying in this thread as it seems more appropriate. It is batteries and not 'wheelchairs worthy of consideration' (the other thread)
The batteries settled at 26.3V which is within spec. There appears to be no voltage from the charger unless it is plugged in, weird. With an extra DX lead plugged into the controller and the charger re-attached the Voltage from the charger is 28.8V, so yeah too high a voltage. Perhaps an inline LED will drop the voltage to an acceptable charging limit.So I think I am going to need a heavy duty XLR extension so that I can play around with the voltages in line or a sensibly priced regulator. I had a few regulators but they're for solar panels. (lent them to a neighbour with 2 x 6W 12V-19V Solar Panels - Flat car battery 100 yards away)

Sent a new email to Wheelchair services too
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jan 2019, 12:20

The charger needs to see the battery. So you need 2 diodes, back to back in opposite direction. Or it wont start up. Needs to see the battery voltage. So a low drop schottky in the return wire.

And its all too late since you cooked the batteries. And undercharged (caused sulfation) too. And because too small, you also discharged them deeply. The perfect storm.

This is what your charger does. Supposedly. But at the CORRECT voltages for your Gel battery. (Doubled obviously for 2)

Charge, 14.1V MAX. 28.2V for two batteries. 14V is safer.
Float, 13.6V, 27.2V for 2 batts.
You also need an 8A or better still 12A charger. 3 is a joke.

bc-24-5000FChart.jpg


And these are those voltages. Look at 20 to 25C, and then the charge voltage.

Image2.gif
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Mechniki » 16 Jan 2019, 13:05

the opticharge is an 8 amp at least that is what the label says, sorry the picture isn't clearer. I was reducing the picture size from 100% to 10% to keep it under 600kb as full size it's about 1.4 Mb. I have 2 other 8 amp Invacare chargers (pretty much the normal for Invacare). I also have 3 other chargers' all 5amp.

One 5 amp is currently charging the wheelchair I am sitting in. Coz starting this morning I made a resolution to keep the chairs topped up. Thanks to the advice on this Forum i shall persevere.

Incidentally, got a nice email back from WCS and they are going to chase up the repairers. The repairers are however, unreachable by phone as their lines are busy, and they have no more voicemail space on their answer machine. And to top that off, all their emails are being returned as unsent. So their email system needs a clear out as well. So now just a matter of waiting until they contact me
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Mechniki » 16 Jan 2019, 13:21

what doide's do you recommend please. would IN4001's be OK I am not good at the Maths . I have a whole strip of diodes. but my eyes cannot see the numbers printed on the surface even under extreme magnification. But physically I think they're too small. I use them with resistors to drop voltage to use normal LED's on a 24V system
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jan 2019, 14:17

You need to measure the volts as it is at the CV stage, during a charge to see what it reaches. If its 28.80V then you can lose .7V approx, by fitting a 10A preferably bigger) silicone rectifier diode, of 40V or higher. That IN4001 will give 1v drop at 1A, and 1.3V drop at 8A so not a great choice. It would be wise to use say 4 in parallel. To reduce volt drop.

For the return diode you need a .2 to 1A, 50V or higher schottky diode so it only drops .22 to 25 volts.
Then test. And measure.

But there will be a problem. It means you will not have a 27.2 float after you get a green light. That is NEEDED to finish the charge, over the next 5 to 10 hours or more. So you will not really be able to do this unless you add a switch so that once its got a ready light lit, you can switch the diodes out, so it actually sits at 27.2V...
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Mechniki » 16 Jan 2019, 14:56

Thank you. And OK bought 50 diodes 10SQ050 Schottky Barrier Rectifiers 10amp 50V,10 of these 10SQ045 Schottky Barrier Rectifiers 10amp 45V (minimum order quantities). 2 of these (need one, but in case I make a mistake) Rocket Johns LTD Mobility Scooter Charger Heavy Duty Extension Lead 1 Metre. I also bought a new regulator for 30amp. The diodes could take a month to get here, from China

I have a 12/24V charger at my parents in one of their garages that has different charging modes 40 Amps/80 Amps, 125 Amp Jump start, assuming that no rats have got to it in 30 years and the tyres on in haven't perished, I may and try and get that here, may as well get my arc welder too.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Mechniki » 18 Jan 2019, 15:17

The 8 amp Invacare Opticharge, been on charge for 48hrs Solid, my Fluke Meter which has been monitoring the batteries the entire time, displayed that the batteries peaked at 28.8V but are now floating at 27.4V - which I confirmed with another meter. They batteries kept the float for 16hrs. Reading the manual for the Opticharge it implies there is a 10 amp version too. The Part number for the Opticharge is 1606543
opti box.jpg
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jan 2019, 20:00

So it would be OK for AGM batteries, as long as you kept them on charge for a full 16 hours or so once or twice a week. Crap for gel.

With gel its over volt, causing 35 to 45% shortened life, and undercharging before a L O N G float AFTER the ready light, causing them to remain slightly sulfated every time you do an overnight charge.

This is why you need to charge at 20 to 25A at CC stage, to get that part over fast. That allows more time overnight to get a longer CV at 13.8 to 14.1V per battery, for around 8 hours/1000thC in amps, to more fully complete the charge in the limited overnight time we have. Before moving to the really slow float which is now not really needed.

Hence MKs spec for charging.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Mechniki » 19 Jan 2019, 22:46

Cool
AJM the company employed by the NHS (Woking WCS) are coming sometime Monday to fix the problems on the charger and stuff
I am holding on to hope that they can fix it

As for that lead idea to drop the voltage a bit, the lead arrived but it's not heavy duty
XLR heavy.jpg

So I ordered 5 metres of AWG 16 and will redo the cable
The float charge has gone up to 27.5v
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Mechniki » 21 Jan 2019, 15:22

Mechniki wrote:Cool
AJM the company employed by the NHS (Woking WCS) are coming sometime Monday to fix the problems on the charger and stuff
I am holding on to hope that they can fix it

well they came, took photo's and left. Had no parts with them, and they knew I need to use the chair Wednesday.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 21 Jan 2019, 15:31

You actually expected that they had a clue?
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Mechniki » 21 Jan 2019, 15:44

Burgerman wrote:You actually expected that they had a clue?

There's only 1 guy in that place, that seems to know what they're doing, at least on the mechanical side.
And no, that would be amazing
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Fedor » 02 Jun 2019, 09:19

I have a gel battery for 45 ampere-hour (C3), it says on it - the maximum charge current is 5 amps. The question is, can I charge it cyclically with 8 amps? I think I can, because it is a gel. Or am I wrong? Why did the manufacturer limit the recommended current?
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 02 Jun 2019, 09:56

What make is that battery?

I charge all lead based batteries at up to 12A limited by the WIRING inside the controller and the XLR connector. So 5 or 8A is safe here too. Where have you read 5A??

I charge GEL as per the spec on most gel batteries at approx 1/3rd capacity, if connected by Anderson connectors, or heavier cables. That means around 15A for your gel. Say 12 to 20A will be fine. I charge AGM batteries at up to 100A without issues. I always charge them at 30A or greater. 40A from my power supply or the PL8 charger etc.

But you MUST ensure that for gel, the charger charges at a CV of 13.9 to 14.1V per battery (28.20V max for 2 in series). And that this CONTINUES for 8 hours max timed CV stage limit, or 1000th of capacity (45mA to 55mAh in the case of your gels) whichever occurs sooner. NO float required. Total charge time will be around 12 to 16 hours. And there's no way to do it faster. If your charger does, its junk!
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Fedor » 02 Jun 2019, 10:43

I know how to charge a real gel (thanks to you), so their recommendations surprised me. This is a Russian brand that produces cheap batteries in China. All info only in russian.

4af459c42543ac08d55036670e0657b4.jpg

That's what they write

Name: 6-EVF-45 (55 ampere-hour, С20)
Technology: Silica GEL
Cyclic charge voltage: 14.6 - 14.8v
Buffer mode: 13.5 - 13.8v
Maximum charging current: 6.5A

There is a graph (made by them):
abfc484960c61f00a8ea4f757e0e2492.jpg

I have a PL8 and maybe later I will do my own tests.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 02 Jun 2019, 15:03

Non of that makes sense. Do they have a proper spec sheet?

It looks like a cheap chinese AGM battery, with some english stuff written on it that doesent make sense... At least not for gel.

I mean like these:

AGM Pure lead Odyssey
www.wheelchairdriver.com/odyssey.pdf
www.wheelchairdriver.com/odyssey-tech.pdf

MK gel
www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK0.pdf
www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK1.pdf
www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK2.pdf
www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK3.pdf
www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK4.pdf
www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK5.pdf
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Fedor » 02 Jun 2019, 15:26

This is all I could find, not counting marketing phrases. I ordered a pair for an old powerchair with 2-pole 150w motors. I do not think that this is a good choice, but they are cheap - about $ 100 for one. Even if it is not a gel, but AGM.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 02 Jun 2019, 20:15

On a powerchair the antiquated lead batteries are the weakest part. No other electric vehicle device has used anything but lithium for a decade. The chair murders lead batteries. As such only the best, correctly charged are ever worth fitting.

As such even the 2 best, Odyssey, and MK Gel, are not adequate. But thats the best there is. They are 2x the price of the ones you are talking about.

With batteries you get what you pay for. Those batteries you bought will have very high internal resistance, added to high peukert levels. So at the current we need to drag a human about they will 'sag' in that the voltage will drop under load significantly. This means you stop sooner, and have low power (torque) levels, and they take longer to charge. So they end up undercharged on top of everything else. A perfect storm. The batteries are junk.

Excuses about Cost/local availability of better batteries does not change this fact. Your batteries will last months not years and give poor performance from new. Getting worse over time.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Fedor » 02 Jun 2019, 21:52

You're right. But sometimes the price is crucial. On the main powerchair I have MK. They cost me $ 800. This is 4x more expensive than those that I take on the second backup powerchair. I think I will have minimal freedom for this price. In truth, even MK does not suit me. Therefore, I am working on a transition to lithium. So my choice seems reasonable to me as a temporary solution.

Some investigation revealed that this is most likely a rebranding of the Chinese battery - Chilwee 6-EVF-45. I will try to charge them with 8 amps and if there is no heating, I will do so.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 02 Jun 2019, 22:00

Therefore, I am working on a transition to lithium. So my choice seems reasonable to me as a temporary solution.

Lithium CHARGED AND BALANCED properly, of at least 1.5x the capacity of lead is the way to go. Do not be tempted to fit less Ah of lithium as this will hurt them. You wont get a sensible cycle life.

Some investigation revealed that this is most likely a rebranding of the Chinese battery - Chilwee 6-EVF-45. I will try to charge them with 8 amps and if there is no heating, I will do so.


They are copletely safe to be charged at 1/3rd capacity. They are 50Ah batteries so 15 to 20A charge is completely safe. They quote a lower figure to prevent thermal runaway, in the event that you are charging at the wrong voltage, and most chargers do. And because in a big block of batteries in say a solar or backup system, they cannot lose heat due to the larger volume to surface area ratio. In a chair you could charge at 14.0V per battery with no Amp limit. So at 40, 50A no problem. The battery is still junk, and will perform poorly. Less torque, and less range than you would expect, and a short life.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 02 Jun 2019, 22:06

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/12V-45Ah-6-EVF-45-Electric_60494409171.html

These? I can buy those trade at 30 dollars each for a pallet. But I wouldnt. You get what you pay for. Recycled lead, dirty factories, inconsistent electrolyte strength and purity, no proper test specs anywhere etc. Not if they were free. Too much trouble. :thumbdown:
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Fedor » 02 Jun 2019, 22:11

Burgerman wrote:Do not be tempted to fit less Ah of lithium as this will hurt them. You wont get a sensible cycle life.

About lithium. I plan to use at least 75Ah cells. I was offered to make a 45Ah lithium battery, but I do not see the point in this capacity, even if it is lithium, I want more range.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Fedor » 02 Jun 2019, 22:16

Burgerman wrote:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/12V-45Ah-6-EVF-45-Electric_60494409171.html

These? I can buy those trade at 30 dollars each for a pallet. But I wouldnt. You get what you pay for. Recycled lead, dirty factories, inconsistent electrolyte strength and purity, no proper test specs anywhere etc. Not if they were free. Too much trouble. :thumbdown:

It looks like they are. This is about a 100% surcharge. Some of this will take delivery. No matter. The problem is that many people have a choice between these batteries and nothing. And you offer a choice between MK, lithium and this. Not fair.

In Russia, even these batteries are for many the best. Some people use starter batteries for $ 50 from the car and change them every 3 months. Because they have no money. And the government does not pay for the replacement of the battery.
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