Joystick handles

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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Bubbernator » 16 Sep 2020, 02:10

Burgerman wrote:

Thats the main reason people cannot control a chair well, and why they need the manufactuers delayed action unsteerable programming. If you have your hand cupping the side of the controller as a reference point and steer with the finger/thumb you can have the programming configured in a way that makes the chair do *exactly* as told. And if not you just cannot!


I remember when I was learning to fly radio controlled airplanes (several decades ago). My instructor was an older gentleman that had been a fighter pilot in WWII.
One of the first things he told me was that I was holding the radio wrong (thumbs on top of the sticks).
"You'll never have full control that way! Hold them like two pencils."
It felt awkward at first but he was absolutely correct.
I'm sure he's long gone by now, God bless him, but I could hear his voice in my head when I was learning to drive this chair.
:worship
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Burgerman » 16 Sep 2020, 05:08

In my club theres a big split. Maybe 50/50, heli pilots use your way mostly. Me, and all the older ones primarily planes before helis existed, use thumbs... And after trying your way for around 1 summer I also use thumbs again on my 500 sized 3D helis. Tried a transmitter tray and holding as you say, no chance!

From 8 years old, with home made single channel radio (yes push button! - 1 and hold for right. 2 and hold for left.) in around 1968, to today. Obviously proportional gear since the first fleet/futaba/flight link/mcGregor/Sanwa appeared and the best of the lot stavely radio in the 70s. Till today. All with thumbs. I did competitive pylon racing for 5 years, tons of wildly over powered race engine powered stuff, and pulse jet deltas. Speed was my thing. And not many had throttles. They dont work on open venturis and crancase pressure... When I started my motors up many member packed up and went home in discust! I wasnt popular with the committee minded types. Also turbines on KB70 deltas, and everything else except scale (boring too slow) till today.

My speciality is low! Very fast... All my engines were ducted fan motors, with props. And loads of nitromethane and propylene oxide/low oil and angry. And never the right way up. Or pulse / turbine jets. I fly mode 1 AND thumbs. Theres not many can match me at least when when younger. Although bit slower at 60.

So you may think its better. Theres a few oldies like me that will definitely give you an argument! Although you might well outfly me with a heli... I doubt you would with aircraft. Especially stupidly fast stuff.

The point isnt how you hold the stick, as long as you do. Its having a stable reference point for your finger or thumb or both. Your hand must rest on the RC transmitter, or the joystick. Thats the important part. Esp a chair as YOU are moving, accelerating, and bouncing along on what passes for our streets.
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Jayde1976 » 16 Sep 2020, 15:00

Burgerman wrote:
i know users who dont hold it at all - and cup there hand over it on top - everyone is different


Thats the main reason people cannot control a chair well, and why they need the manufactuers delayed action unsteerable programming. If you have your hand cupping the side of the controller as a reference point and steer with the finger/thumb you can have the programming configured in a way that makes the chair do *exactly* as told. And if not you just cannot! Yes that may not be possible for everyone. Esp if the joystick is too low and too outboard. And if you dont have good normal hand function. But it is the only way it works properly with linear real time proportional programming.

I hold mine with just finger and thumb as I find it easier, as i tried to hold with hand on top and just dont go straight.... I got my joystick angled so it lays to one side instead of straight up,this was for my comfort, and doing both means mine goes where I want it with no delayed action from any programming needed.. I got a golf ball as well, a pretty one which is yellow with smiley face,but got a love heart one as well... I havent yet to find a golf ball which has a soft centre of stuff in it but then mine are just cheap balls and most proberbly no good for golf.
IMG_5218.jpg
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Burgerman » 16 Sep 2020, 15:44

Jayde you may be surprized to know that unless you have already attacked your control system with an OEM programmer, removed a few walls, and changed 4 of the turn acceleration and deceleration parameters that your chair (all chairs) can steer and be far more accurate and direct and more linear to drive. Its much more relaxing and driving becomes basically transparent and no planing or thought needed. Like using using a sharpened pencil to draw instead of a wax crayon or a paintbrush. The difference is enormous.

Provided that:
a) YOU have normal hand control and skills.
b)Your joystick is positioned correctly so that you cup the body of the joystick pod and steer with finger and thumb in comfort. As easily as you would sign a letter with the joystick. Like a pencil.

If not, both of the above then you wouldnt be able to use the new direct programming that I am talking about. And the chair would feel too jerky or sudden for you to control smoothly. Theres no way to explain the difference in words. But it isnt minor. Like looking through a filthy window or an open window. You have to *do it* and test. Then you will see yourself how dismal it all was previously. If you have never experienced the difference then you will never understand what I am trying to explain.

The other issue is that this difference is so great, and so important that I personally would never buy any chair that I do not have, or cannot get an OEM level programmer for. Period. Its a total game changer. And that may rule out yours. Is that a pride controller or a curtis instraments one? Pride is a no go. In most cases. No OEM tool accessible. So screwed. So are newer invacare systems...
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 16 Sep 2020, 18:42

i will try mounting it back to the original setup before i added spacers to raise up - in the stock position its a bit lower which may help now to use it with my fingers instead of gripping it with my hand - i removed the spacers i added when new - - i am sure i will be adjusting it a few more times and add the mushroom knob to see what that does -

i never considered a ball style - i would be curious to feel how that works - if nothing else works - i may try it if i get a hold of one - its what ever works the person - i may have to angle my joystick also now -
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby rustyjames » 16 Sep 2020, 21:27

Expresso--I think I have a ball style one laying around if you want to try one out. It's off a Qtronix Pilot Plus module and has a 1/4" hole.
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 16 Sep 2020, 22:52

rustyjames wrote:Expresso--I think I have a ball style one laying around if you want to try one out. It's off a Qtronix Pilot Plus module and has a 1/4" hole.



thanks rusty - let me see what i can do first before trying a ball - i have to get a few original screws which i must have lost years ago - only have one - need another to hold it down secure - will try the mushroom when i get it - and see how that works out - being colder now - i wont be riding much now - but if i have to go out for something i can test it then -

i keep it in mind - :thumbup:
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Burgerman » 16 Sep 2020, 23:54

Balls. :D
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Jayde1976 » 17 Sep 2020, 12:33

Burgerman wrote:Jayde you may be surprized to know that unless you have already attacked your control system with an OEM programmer, removed a few walls, and changed 4 of the turn acceleration and deceleration parameters that your chair (all chairs) can steer and be far more accurate and direct and more linear to drive. Its much more relaxing and driving becomes basically transparent and no planing or thought needed. Like using using a sharpened pencil to draw instead of a wax crayon or a paintbrush. The difference is enormous.

Provided that:
a) YOU have normal hand control and skills.
b)Your joystick is positioned correctly so that you cup the body of the joystick pod and steer with finger and thumb in comfort. As easily as you would sign a letter with the joystick. Like a pencil.


yes i had the local guy program it to how i wanted, but only in 2 settings so i got a slow indoor/restaurant setting which has a small delay in it to stop it getting knocked and send me flying(thats happened before) but on the "Sport" one i had named the decelration and accel parameters are 0 so when i move the joystick its instant, yes its a quantum stretto edge3, i have a dealer programmer so can do a few things like i got the lock out for the ilevel so it will go faster in the raised position and removed the time out bit so it dont switch off after a few mins. think there is a few things my programmer wont do but its only a dealer one but can still change the names of each setting.plus i got the wireless over the internet i can always do if i get stuck with it. does what i want it to do and goes along my local unmade paths but not as extreame as some will do...
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Burgerman » 17 Sep 2020, 17:26

yes i had the local guy program it to how i wanted,

Nope. You would need a guy with a OEM programmer that knew what he was doing. Those are like rocking horse shit. Dealer programming tools are basically a waste of time.

And on pride stuff not actually possible. OEM tools are claimed to be non existent. And in reality kept under lock and key at the manufacturers base. So you really do not have it programmed to steer properly. The difference is huge. And you dont know this because you have no opportunity to find out yet.
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 10 Oct 2020, 17:52

Bubbernator wrote:Hmmm. The last time I saw a Hurst shifter in action my buttcrack was eating the seat. 1969 GTO Judge that one of my high-schools buddies owned. Pucker Factor of 10.
Anyway, I found a manufacturer of some nice handles. Unfortunately you need to register as a business to order online but there is no minimum order quantity, so you could buy just one. (edited- I was wrong. Sold in quantities of 10 pieces). I would give them a phone call and ask for a sample. It couldn't hurt to try.....
https://www.elesa.com/en/elesab2bstoreu ... --IELNSOFT



i did call them - the guy sent me one for free - you can purchase them at $6.50 each - but min is 10 - if i had too - i would since it would still be cheaper to buy 10 of these rather than one of original one - its made very well - its a bit larger OD than the one i have already - and i may need to thicken the JS to make it fit snug

but i am happy - thanks good find
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Bubbernator » 10 Oct 2020, 18:35

Cool. I'm glad you got something you can work with. The price of OEM equipment make me either laugh or cry.
When I find the overseas supplier before I buy from the dealer then I laugh.
When I find the supplier after I've already paid the dealer 10x what it's worth then I shed a tear.
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 10 Oct 2020, 18:41

i would love to find who supplies the motors for my bounder chair -
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby foghornleghorn » 10 Oct 2020, 19:04

expresso wrote:i may need to thicken the JS to make it fit snug

Heat-shrink tubing the same as used on electrical wiring is good for that.
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 10 Oct 2020, 19:06

good idea - i would have just used some tape wrap it around till its snug enough -

thanks
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Bubbernator » 13 Oct 2020, 02:18

expresso wrote:i would love to find who supplies the motors for my bounder chair -


Do you have a photo?

21st Century doesn't want you spending your $3,000 elsewhere.....bastids.
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 13 Oct 2020, 02:36

and thats $3000 Each they want - i dont have a photo - cant even find one online

i found a set on ebay but no photo - but if i got a set online - i am sure it needs to be rebuilt - with bounder parts list

its not clear if they charge $1000 to have them rebuilt - for both i believe - if i had to - that would be the only option -

not spending $6000 on motors - by the time i may need them rebuilt - insurance is already giving me a hard time with some parts i put in for

brakes - chains and sprockets - brakes alone are $885 each - chains and sprockets about $500 for both sides - i believe

curious to know who makes there motors - also i wonder if other online shops can rebuilt them like they did my Sunrise motors

will email them to ask - its a rare thing - and most likely best place would be to have bounder rebuilt them anyway if its a special motor or parts -

for now they are fine - should be - wont be using it till next summer if i make it over this pandemic - still not out of the woods -

going to doc. on wed - will ask if i can take the test or antibody test to see if i was exposed before - i have 4 girls coming and going here - whos to say - i had one of my girls who was exposed at the start - but i was not which not sure how i wasnt - we work close together -

not complaining :D but not worth dying over

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Torque-3 ... 3276242018

i have those - Super Torque 3 -
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 13 Oct 2020, 02:43

i also found out that my bounder chair is not longer going to be covered with parts etc, after 5 years starting now -

they no longer make the there own electronics - i would think other parts are ok - they changed there chairs just a bit

so they are medicare billed - insurance - 300m - 450M 600M - no longer offer the high speed because of the legal issues with insurance - 6mp and can do 8.5mph as upgrade - but not covered

maybe out of pocket you can upgrade to higher package like mines at 12mph - but not sure - insurance will cover 6mph - maybe 8.5mph if your lucky - thats it -

i was denied high speed on new chair - have court next week on that issue - denied seat lift - motor package - New JS color etc, i am ready and will make my case for everything - let judge decide - final answer
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Bubbernator » 13 Oct 2020, 03:38

Best wishes for the Dr. and the Judge.
Be a gadfly. Sometimes they'll give it to you just to get you to go away.
:thumbup:

The next time you're fiddling with the Bounder see if you can get a pic or two of the motors. I'm curious as to what's hiding under there. I see sprockets, belts and other bits and pieces listed on their order form.
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 13 Oct 2020, 03:47

this is the only one i have - they are two huge motors in the front under the seat - totally sealed - - like this chair or not - its a fun chair

giving you also have another chair - for indoor use and less work involved - i enjoy this thing in the summer -
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby hobie1dog » 27 Apr 2021, 22:11

Looked all over and cannot find a foam ball the size of a golf ball other than these yellow foam table tennis foam practice balls, 40mm in size, I would want a black one to match the rest of the controller. The golf ball would likely be uncomfortable after an hour or so.

https://www.amazon.com/Worldwide-Foam-T ... 146&sr=8-5
Earth: The Insane Asylum of the Universe-nowhere else could things be more screwed up.

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Re: Joystick handles

Postby woodygb » 27 Apr 2021, 22:19

An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field.
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby hobie1dog » 27 Apr 2021, 22:28

woodygb wrote:https://www.amazon.com/GREATLOVE-Practice-Balls%EF%BC%8CIndoor-Balls%EF%BC%8CKids-Balls-6pcs/dp/B07B3WSS9F/ref=sr_1_28?dchild=1&keywords=40mm+eva+golf+monocromo+balls+outdoor&qid=1619558273&sr=8-28


Thanks Woody.
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Spectra_Pilot » 29 Apr 2021, 21:53

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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 29 Apr 2021, 22:04

nice like the piston one also - are you using the piston on a new Rnet CJSM2 ? how does it compare size to stock rubber ones ?
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Burgerman » 29 Apr 2021, 22:53

I would advise care with those esp the huge t bar one. They dont like excessive force being applied.
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 29 Apr 2021, 23:25

i am always pushing that thing all the way forward all day - - i have a small mushroom handle on the bounder and i like that the best so far

funny how a old school box with handle works better for me at least than the high end Rnet color screens - etc,

i will try moving it away from me a bit more - i feel it maybe too close to me - i like the piston one - if its not too big
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Spectra_Pilot » 30 Apr 2021, 13:55

Spectra_Pilot wrote:I use the 'Piston' controller and love it.

https://www.crippleconcepts.com/product/wheelchair-joystick-knobs
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20210430_120602.jpg
Piston joystick
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby expresso » 30 Apr 2021, 16:16

thanks glad you posted that pic - it will be a bit too large for me to hold and use - i though it would be much smaller overall
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Re: Joystick handles

Postby Spectra_Pilot » 01 May 2021, 14:07

expresso wrote:nice like the piston one also - are you using the piston on a new Rnet CJSM2 ? how does it compare size to stock rubber ones ?


It came supplied with a sleeve and Allan key to tighten up onto the standard joystick stem.
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