Problems with new Permobil F5 Wheelchair

[swalker]

In November of last year my wheelchair van was stolen with my Permobil F5 wheelchair in it.

The van and wheelchair were recovered, but both had substantial damage.

My insurance company required that we try to repair the wheelchair. I have used NuMotion (a large US company) for buying and repairing wheelchairs, so they attempted the repairs.

After many months of delays and failed repairs, my insurance company finally decided to replace the wheelchair with a brand new Permobil F5. I have had the new F5 for just under 2 weeks and have had quite a few issued with it. I would appreciate insight, recommendations, and just plain old sympathy.

Here are the things wrong:
1. It is the wrong color. I have in writing that NuMotion will provide the correct color trim kit. Color is the least of my concerns, as I am not very fashion conscious. But Orange? Really? At least my wife likes orange:).
2. NuMotion furnished the wrong size Roho seat cushion. NuMotion has reviewed the order and agree that the correct size was ordered. They have verbally told me they will send me the correct size.
3. The LCD screen appears to be delaminating. There are small bubbles appearing on the screen. If I press on a bubble, it moves and changes shape a bit. No word yet on what NuMotion will do about that issue. And, yes, I have removed the screen protector:).
4. The casters flutter terribly when I go over even a small pebble at medium speeds. The wheelchair is nearly uncontrollable when this happens at high speed. NuMotion asked me to torque some bolts down from 17 ft lbs to 21 ft lbs. We did that, but it has made no significant difference. The flutter is getting worse. The service manual says the anti flutter devices on this version of the F5 are not adjustable. NuMotion is sending a mobile tech out to take a look at the problem, but they are not available for another month.
5. On my first real ride, when the wheelchair had about 1 mile on it, the LCD screen suddenly displayed a large power icon (circle with a vertical bar) that slowly faded from gray to green and back. I cycled power and it did he same thing. I cycled power again and it powered back somewhat normally, but it had reset my profile and mode. I made it home, but I lost confidence in the reliability of the chair. The NuMotion mobile tech will take a look at this when he is here in October.
6. Today, I went for a ride. I had planned to go about 9 miles. About 3.75 miles into the ride, the wheelchair slowed down and started surging. The turtle icon was flashing orange. At the same time, the power meter jumped from 4 yellow bars to just 1 yellow bar (there are 3 red, 4 yellow, and 3 green).

That is a lot to be wrong with a wheelchair that is less than 2 weeks old and only has about 20 miles on it. Unfortunately, the mobile tech they plan to send out to look at it is not very capable. He is a competent mechanic (as in turning nuts and bolts), but is new to wheelchairs. I have worked with him on several occasions in the 6 months and am confident he will be pleasant, but clueless. All the good techs I worked with at NuMotion have left the company (one transferred to another state).

So, what do I do? I am confident that NuMotion will not be able to replicate the intermittent errors. I am fairly confident the mobile tech will tell me the flutter is normal (the F5 that was stolen did not flutter, but it had a different anti flutter arrangement). I am confident that NuMotion will eventually get the right color kit, replace the Roho cushion, and agree the LCD screen is delaminating.

It seems like they should take this hunk of junk back and replace it with a wheelchair that works! But, will that resolve the flutter issue? Does the new version of the F5 simply overheat more easily than the previous version (thus the flashing turtle)?

Time is of the essence. I have a limited window in which I can return the wheelchair. I will use up a lot of that window waiting on a mobile tech to show up.

Right now I am pretty frustrated. I have spent almost 10 months getting the wheelchair replaced and now that I have the replacement wheelchair, it is acting a lot like a lemon.

I appreciate your thoughts on this situation.

Steve

[steves1977uk]

Easy solution, don't buy Permobil! (I know, I know, it's hard when you need specific features on a chair), but surely there has to be better brands than Pride, Permobil, etc.

It sounds like you got someone elses problematic chair with the PM data cleared to make it look new, because a new one shouldn't have all those issues. You should look into importing one of the Dietz chairs which may be cheaper and more reliable.

Steve

[Burgerman]

3. The LCD screen appears to be delaminating. There are small bubbles appearing on the screen. If I press on a bubble, it moves and changes shape a bit. No word yet on what NuMotion will do about that issue. And, yes, I have removed the screen protector:).

Which one is it. I dont see any way for any of mine to delaminate. Just a plastic/glass screen cover. Maybe its got water on it?

4. The casters flutter terribly when I go over even a small pebble at medium speeds. The wheelchair is nearly uncontrollable when this happens at high speed. NuMotion asked me to torque some bolts down from 17 ft lbs to 21 ft lbs. We did that, but it has made no significant difference. The flutter is getting worse. The service manual says the anti flutter devices on this version of the F5 are not adjustable. NuMotion is sending a mobile tech out to take a look at the problem, but they are not available for another month.

Dont use permobil. They wont know how to fix it even a month from now...

5. On my first real ride, when the wheelchair had about 1 mile on it, the LCD screen suddenly displayed a large power icon (circle with a vertical bar) that slowly faded from gray to green and back. I cycled power and it did he same thing. I cycled power again and it powered back somewhat normally, but it had reset my profile and mode. I made it home, but I lost confidence in the reliability of the chair. The NuMotion mobile tech will take a look at this when he is here in October.

Dont buy permobil with their one off permobil firmware, seating and gyro and joystic options. Because they have issues like this, and the only people that could fix that is permobil. But it seems they cant and just keep replacing parts and sub assemblies.

6. Today, I went for a ride. I had planned to go about 9 miles. About 3.75 miles into the ride, the wheelchair slowed down and started surging. The turtle icon was flashing orange. At the same time, the power meter jumped from 4 yellow bars to just 1 yellow bar (there are 3 red, 4 yellow, and 3 green).

AS Above 5...

That is a lot to be wrong with a wheelchair that is less than 2 weeks old and only has about 20 miles on it. Unfortunately, the mobile tech they plan to send out to look at it is not very capable. He is a competent mechanic (as in turning nuts and bolts), but is new to wheelchairs. I have worked with him on several occasions in the 6 months and am confident he will be pleasant, but clueless. All the good techs I worked with at NuMotion have left the company (one transferred to another state).

Good techs are approximately 1 in 100 in my 23 years of talking to people with problems, and meeting them myself. Worse, if I worked for permobil, and I knew how to fix any possible eventuality on my sunrise, or the new dietz chairs for e.g because they use simple foolproof r-net control systems, like most chairs do, I still couldnt fix a permobil. Because the techs are restricted to non OEM programmers, and only swapping out permobil own custom parts. And those may have endemic firmware issues that even swapping out wont fix. Dont use permobil, it locks you into a complete single manufacturer bespoke parts system. Inc the ability to fix it. Anything that does this, that I cannot sort out MYSELF is a definite no no. If anything goes wrong, or I need to access the programmer, etc on any of my chairs, I can do so. And I can order parts from any high street sunrise dealer. I can also get r-net parts ditectly from PG drives as well. And I wouldnt have any chair where this was not possible.

Because basically you are now screwed. You have to rely on them. To turn up and not understand the problem in a month. And then randomly order some parts in the hope that it will fix it in another month. And as for programming it so it steers, no hope ever.

And castor.. No idea. Thats a thing that is a mystery to all...

[swalker]

I went out for another test drive in the new F5 today. I went on the same route as yesterday and had the chair go into flashing turtle mode within about 10 ft of where it did yesterday.

This time I felt the motors and they were certainly warm. It would have been uncomfortable to have left my finger on either motor.

So, at least the failure can be replicated.

This is a ride that I often do. I have done it with a Permobil C500s VS (high speed motors), a Permobil C500 (regular speed motors), and my previous Permobil F5 (7.5 mph motors). The new F5 (7.5 mph motors) is the only one to have gone into flashing turtle mode.

I also found another fault. I frequently use the memory buttons to put my seat into predetermined positions. Shortly after the flashing turtle mode started, but after it had stopped flashing, I tried to use one of the latched memory buttons to put the seat into a desired position. Nothing happened. I then tried to use the regular memory button to do this. When I pressed and held the button, the seat reclined a small amount and then the legrests started slowly oscillating through an arc of about 5 to 10 degrees. Repeated attempts caused the legs to oscillate, the tilt to oscillate, or both to oscillate. It was very confused. After many tries, I was able to get the memory button to put the seat in the desired position.

Once I returned home and let the wheelchair cool down, I repeated the above and had the exact same problem.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Yep. Its got permobils own seating actuator and lighting controller... Its a permobil problem.
Sounds like many of the problems we see on here. Theres nothing you can do other than call them. This is why I wouldnt want one if it was free. BBecause theres almost nothing YOU can do.

The R-net derived system that permobil have customised has no way to measure or know motor temperature.

[Rollin Positive]

In November of last year my wheelchair van was stolen with my Permobil F5 wheelchair in it.

The van and wheelchair were recovered, but both had substantial damage.

My insurance company required that we try to repair the wheelchair. I have used NuMotion (a large US company) for buying and repairing wheelchairs, so they attempted the repairs.

After many months of delays and failed repairs, my insurance company finally decided to replace the wheelchair with a brand new Permobil F5. I have had the new F5 for just under 2 weeks and have had quite a few issued with it. I would appreciate insight, recommendations, and just plain old sympathy.

Here are the things wrong:
1. It is the wrong color. I have in writing that NuMotion will provide the correct color trim kit. Color is the least of my concerns, as I am not very fashion conscious. But Orange? Really? At least my wife likes orange:).
2. NuMotion furnished the wrong size Roho seat cushion. NuMotion has reviewed the order and agree that the correct size was ordered. They have verbally told me they will send me the correct size.
3. The LCD screen appears to be delaminating. There are small bubbles appearing on the screen. If I press on a bubble, it moves and changes shape a bit. No word yet on what NuMotion will do about that issue. And, yes, I have removed the screen protector:).
4. The casters flutter terribly when I go over even a small pebble at medium speeds. The wheelchair is nearly uncontrollable when this happens at high speed. NuMotion asked me to torque some bolts down from 17 ft lbs to 21 ft lbs. We did that, but it has made no significant difference. The flutter is getting worse. The service manual says the anti flutter devices on this version of the F5 are not adjustable. NuMotion is sending a mobile tech out to take a look at the problem, but they are not available for another month.
5. On my first real ride, when the wheelchair had about 1 mile on it, the LCD screen suddenly displayed a large power icon (circle with a vertical bar) that slowly faded from gray to green and back. I cycled power and it did he same thing. I cycled power again and it powered back somewhat normally, but it had reset my profile and mode. I made it home, but I lost confidence in the reliability of the chair. The NuMotion mobile tech will take a look at this when he is here in October.
6. Today, I went for a ride. I had planned to go about 9 miles. About 3.75 miles into the ride, the wheelchair slowed down and started surging. The turtle icon was flashing orange. At the same time, the power meter jumped from 4 yellow bars to just 1 yellow bar (there are 3 red, 4 yellow, and 3 green).

That is a lot to be wrong with a wheelchair that is less than 2 weeks old and only has about 20 miles on it. Unfortunately, the mobile tech they plan to send out to look at it is not very capable. He is a competent mechanic (as in turning nuts and bolts), but is new to wheelchairs. I have worked with him on several occasions in the 6 months and am confident he will be pleasant, but clueless. All the good techs I worked with at NuMotion have left the company (one transferred to another state).

So, what do I do? I am confident that NuMotion will not be able to replicate the intermittent errors. I am fairly confident the mobile tech will tell me the flutter is normal (the F5 that was stolen did not flutter, but it had a different anti flutter arrangement). I am confident that NuMotion will eventually get the right color kit, replace the Roho cushion, and agree the LCD screen is delaminating.

It seems like they should take this hunk of junk back and replace it with a wheelchair that works! But, will that resolve the flutter issue? Does the new version of the F5 simply overheat more easily than the previous version (thus the flashing turtle)?

Time is of the essence. I have a limited window in which I can return the wheelchair. I will use up a lot of that window waiting on a mobile tech to show up.

Right now I am pretty frustrated. I have spent almost 10 months getting the wheelchair replaced and now that I have the replacement wheelchair, it is acting a lot like a lemon.

I appreciate your thoughts on this situation.

Steve

Email me direct I can help you...

Timm@RollinPositive@gmail.com

[Burgerman]

The power issue may be a bad battery connection (loose) or something simple. If not its a permobil thing. You will have to let them make many attempts (a month apart?) as they randomly swap expensive parts about... The joys of relying on the experts.

With any other R-Net chair/system you can just throw the joystick, power module and ISM on the bench and test. Or otherwise find the issue, and swap easy to get standardised R-Net parts if faulty. So I would have already fixed it and reprogrammed it by now.

[steves1977uk]

Same here BM, I have lots of spare parts that I can test and swap over with help from family and friends. Much quicker than relying on most "expert techs" who can take weeks/months trying to fix the issue, when I can have the problem fixed in hours to a few days at the longest.

Don't understand why most wheelchair users feel they need to rely on techs and having to wait months before the actual issue is resolved. Crazy! Parts can be cheaply had from eBay or direct from Curtiss-Wright/Dynamic as the main two.

Steve

[Jay_x]

Did you talk to the permobil technical support guys?

They are usually pretty helpful and I didn't see where you said you talked to them. You have to call the 800 number and ask specifically for the wheelchair mechanics, not the regular service rep.

Also if you continue to have problems you can ask for permobil to send their regional rep out to see what the issue is. A visit should not cost you anything. A lot of their regional reps have technical experience with repairing chairs. Its a pain the ass to keep badgering them, but if you keep at it they will eventually send someone out to see your chair. Been there done that.

[Jay_x]

Same here BM, I have lots of spare parts that I can test and swap over with help from family and friends. Much quicker than relying on most "expert techs" who can take weeks/months trying to fix the issue, when I can have the problem fixed in hours to a few days at the longest.

Don't understand why most wheelchair users feel they need to rely on techs and having to wait months before the actual issue is resolved. Crazy! Parts can be cheaply had from eBay or direct from Curtiss-Wright/Dynamic as the main two.

Steve

A problem I have is that so many people get freaked out by a wheelchair and don't want to work on it even with me sitting there telling them what to do.

[swalker]

Email me direct I can help you...

Timm@RollinPositive@gmail.com

I think the email address you provided has an extra @ in it. I tried using it with my email client, and it rejected that email address. Can you confirm your email address?

Thanks

Steve

[Burgerman]

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3074

[Rollin Positive]

So sorry I am Timm and email me direct at RollinPositive@gmail.com

I sent you a message to with somethings I am look for to help.

I work close with the management at NuMotion including their CEO Mike Swinford so we can get all this addressed.

Remember the chair is under warranty and things like caster wobble are hacks that will fix that too.

[Rollin Positive]

swalker: Still haven't hear from you?

Email me at RollinPositive@Gmail.com

[swalker]

swalker: Still haven't hear from you?

Email me at RollinPositive@Gmail.com

Thanks! email sent.

Steve

[swalker]

Here is an update.

I talked to a Permobil technical support guy. He has helped me before and seems to be very knowledgeable and helpful.

His opinion is that the actuator and ICS issues are likely to be caused by incorrect programming. If so, it should be easy to sort out.

His opinion is that the power issue (power icon appearing) and flashing turtle are both likely to be an issue with the batteries, battery connection, and/or drag in the motors.

He indicated there is a possibility the ICS master module and/or the Rnet power module could be involved. There could also be some involvement of the wiring harness.

My opinion is that if he is right, the constellation of problems is beyond the ability of the local NuMotion technical folks to resolve.

I have also talked to the Numotion folks locally. They are investigating replacing the wheelchair. In the meantime, they are scheduling a time for multiple technical folks from NuMotion and Permobil to get together (some virtually) to diagnose the chair.

In the meantime, I think the chair is essentially unusable. I am concerned about damage that might have already been done to the motors in the 30 miles or so of test rides I have done so far.

I am going to give NuMotion and Permobil a bit of time to work this issue before I start escalating it further.

Steve

[woodygb]

I don't think your tech guru left out any option of what could be wrong , as he seems to have listed ALL of the electronics/electrics on the chair as possibilities.

[Burgerman]

His opinion is that the actuator and ICS issues are likely to be caused by incorrect programming. If so, it should be easy to sort out.

OK my opinion. On this forum, I have heard this many times. It could well be programming, but more likely that programming - not the sort we change. Will be a firmware thing in their permobil parts... This is why I say avoid permobil. This is where the endless replacement of parts with no actual diagnosis begins... Seen it all before with half a dozen users on here. Its where they try to make it go away by substitution where the real problem is by design or firmware. These permobil made parts that they use in place of the generic well tested R-Net parts are always the problem. So dont hold your breath. A new chair or new parts, may well have the same issues. Unless it has updated or different firmware or components or something. We will wait and see!

His opinion is that the power issue (power icon appearing) and flashing turtle are both likely to be an issue with the batteries, battery connection, and/or drag in the motors.

That doesent appear with any battery issues as far as I know on r-net. If its basically a R-Net system, thats not related and they should know this. Same with battery connection. That would either cut off the power and require you restarting the module with the on button, or intermittend battery guage and lights etc flickering and performance issues like shuddering or stopping fast. I never heard of "drag in the motors"... Unless he means brand new motors have a failed bearing or something. You would hear that. And it would be on ONE side so drag the chair and be obvious. Or the brake not releasing and causing the power module to overheat (lots of amps to drive) but Im sure you would both feel and hear that as it will drag you left or right. Like going up a steep ramp with one wheel. Seems to be guessing at everything with no actual reasoning or logic as to how it all works. I wish you luck.

He indicated there is a possibility the ICS master module and/or the Rnet power module could be involved. There could also be some involvement of the wiring harness.

Some "involvement"? Yes their permobil stuff like the ics may well be faulty its the number one thing that people on here complain about. The R-Net modules are basically bomb proof and work forever. If one fails, there are many self testing systems running all the time. And it would definitely go dark and never move again or stop completely with a big warning. I doubt its anything to do with the power module. They will change it anyway!
As for the wiring, you would see smoke, smell burning, or worse if it was slowing the chair or causing errors. And do you have any idea what little wiring there actually is in the power system?

My opinion is that if he is right, the constellation of problems is beyond the ability of the local NuMotion technical folks to resolve.

Just going by what he has said I can tell you now that that guy hasnt a clue. And yes, swap the chair! Personally I could figure out what was wrong and fix it for good in a morning. And the permobil only ICS and any other permobil parts like gyro modules etc would all go in the bin and be replaced by generic r-net parts. They are tested, reliable, and way more compact. And also properly and fully programmable by many of us on here inc me. So it would end up steering way better as well. But thats me!

I have also talked to the Numotion folks locally. They are investigating replacing the wheelchair. In the meantime, they are scheduling a time for multiple technical folks from NuMotion and Permobil to get together (some virtually) to diagnose the chair.

I would love to be there. Why on earth would it need more than one guy with a clue? Send rover, or bring me it!

In the meantime, I think the chair is essentially unusable. I am concerned about damage that might have already been done to the motors in the 30 miles or so of test rides I have done so far.

Well dont. You cant damage a healthy motor by using the chair. And if its not healthy (possible but extremely unlikely on a new chair) then they will need swapping regardless.
You can diagnose a motor in 3 mins with a clamp meter (abnormal current causing power module to overheat and give an overheat error) and sound, and see it the brake releases correctly and see if it spins freely by hand. Thats it.

[Burgerman]

Complete r-net power and seating actuator with its loom, A bus cable, you need two, 120A power module and joystick inc all wiring etc. Its not rocket science. my gran could plug it together!

(Missing parts: motors with 2 big connectors tat plug into the power module. And the battery cable with similar big single plug).

Thread on R-net viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8857

Pic of a full r-net system minus battery and cable, and motors with its cable:

[steves1977uk]

Basically the "tech" guys haven't a clue! Send the chair to me if you want! I'd rip off the Permobil custom modules and replace with generic R-net parts and you'd have a 100% working chair, instead of faffing around swapping modules hoping it cures the issues.

Steve

[rover220]

Basically the "tech" guys haven't a clue! Send the chair to me if you want! I'd rip off the Permobil custom modules and replace with generic R-net parts and you'd have a 100% working chair, instead of faffing around swapping modules hoping it cures the issues.

Steve

You need the ics system to run the smart actuators.

[Burgerman]

You cant use the common ism6 we all have kicking about cheap. You can use a PG R-Net ISM module, but it must be the less common ££$$ R-net CxSM one as far as I can determine. It does all the same complex settings with positional feedback, 8 channels, and can be programmed with the normal R-Net OEM (at least in the sunrise version of OEM we have). At least I cant see anything there that a permobil does that it cannot also do. Likewise the R-Net stability/gyro modules can do all the stuff the permobil ones do and are actually better.

Serious question. How many permobil seating problems/firmware/errors as a percentage of sales, do you end up fixing? Compared to chairs that use generic R-Net?

[kendradog]

Dont use permobil.

I’ve been looking around for new chairs as my Street is reaching its end of life. I haven’t found another option than Permobil.

Permobil has integrated seats with power tilt, recline, elevator, leg rests. Other vendors I have seen treat these as add ons. It’s a bit hard to trust a vendor for which one senses they have barely used or tested such a seating configuration; with Permobil it’s routine.

I’ve personally used Permobil for 15 years and they have always offered great service and are well organized: when I call in with a question they find the exact part and sell it. They support their chairs very well, parts are available years after the chair is purchased. And the Street was sturdy and reliable. However, I have not used their new F or M series and cannot speak to those.

Sometimes there are small vendors who say they offer what Permobil does, but there is no way for me as a user to know who will repair such chairs, how long the company will exist and stand behind the product, or how accurate the claims are. Sometimes vendors offer chairs that are hugely heavy, noisy, big or hard to transfer into, or are clearly mainly for outdoor use. Permobil are very quiet, more so than other vendors I’ve seen, and are suitable for indoor/outdoor use.

Unless you have a specific suggestion of a reliable vendor who supports and is experienced with these power seating features, and who sells a specific model supporting these with a comparable weight and form factor to a Permobil, who is supported by local repair shops, it is unhelpful to say “don’t buy Permobil”.

[Burgerman]

I presume that you are in he US. I dont know what you can get there. Theres many options here. Without the 2x inflated prices esp for the permobil only bits that fail. And the chairs use the exact same motors as every chair. So when you say quiet I cannot see how they can be any different. For e.g. they use linix chinese made motors in all ther latest chairs. The same as sunrise quicky and many others. And those are particularly quiet. But they only use 2 pole ones. Other manufacturers allow you to CHOOSE 4 pole. Allmost every part on a permobil is the same or a cheapened version of the stuff every other chair uses. But thats your choice. But it wont ever steer properly if you use one with front drive and their own gyro setup.

[snaker]

when I call in with a question they find the exact part and sell it

Can you tell us an example about what part they gave you and how much did it cost?

And is it possible if you call them now and tell them what swalker posted in this thread. Then come back and post the parts that he needs to 'swap'. I think that would help swalker fixing his NEW chair without waiting months.

[kendradog]

Can you tell us an example about what part they gave you and how much did it cost?

And is it possible if you call them now and tell them what swalker posted in this thread. Then come back and post the parts that he needs to 'swap'. I think that would help swalker fixing his NEW chair without waiting months.

No, they have a detailed file based off the serial number of each chair. When I called for help, and sometimes my DME, they were always just very professional and helpful. I mean my Street is something like 10 years old and still runs well. They would know things like the exact caster kits, foot rests, random screws I think. The parts were never inexpensive but were always the right part and always worked well.

That said, I was in a very unusual situation: I had a dedicated, highly-qualified technician working at my DME. It is certainly the case that had I not had such a good technician, my experience might have been different. Also, although I have never tried front wheel drive, I am certainly skeptical of them. What worries me about front wheel drive is they seem to increase the complexity of the chair significantly, and increased complexity is never a good thing. He retired actually and I am quite concerned.

Actually after a decade it has become hard to get parts for the chair. That is one of the reason I am looking at new chairs. But I do not know of a specific vendor (in the States) who can offer the seating options I need - power tilt, recline, elevator, footrest, in a way that seems as good as Permobil's.

[Burgerman]

No, they have a detailed file based off the serial number of each chair. When I called for help, and sometimes my DME, they were always just very professional and helpful. I mean my Street is something like 10 years old and still runs well. They would know things like the exact caster kits, foot rests, random screws I think. The parts were never inexpensive but were always the right part and always worked well.

With respect thats all a legal requirement and all chair manufacturers do that.

The difference is that I can buy (better) parts for most chairs or scooters either online or from any high street dealer at half the price of permobil. And in many cases such as the electrics, and those tend to be the parts that fail, I can buy those direct from pg drives for example (WAY CHEAPER! than from chair manufacturers esp permobil), as well as programmers etc. You cant do this with all the modified, or bespoke permobil stuff. And cant get oem programmer at all. And the newest stuff is the most locked down in regards permobil seating ics / gyros, joystics, custom firmware etc. As for bolts or bearings, or many common parts ebay is usually much faster and 10 to 20x cheaper! Same with batteries, chargers, tyres, spacers, etc.

[ex-Gooserider]

I have never owned / tried a Permobil, and because of the front drive, really don't want to...

My general impression from here and elsewhere, is that if they are working, and you don't mind the stock programming / don't know any better, they are reasonably nice chairs...

If you care about looks they have really nice fit & finish w/ covers over the mechanical bits if you care for that style... (To me it is like the plastic coated Japanese bikes vs. HD / BMW / Guzzi, etc - do you want to see the motor?)

IF they work, they are as good or better than a lot of other chairs... They are probably about the same for general reliability as everyone else since their mechanical bits come from the same places as every one else...

However if they break then you are likely to have a harder time getting them fixed - in essence you are

ex-Gooserider