Burgerman wrote:Can I ask you what you think it will achieve for you? And is it for lithium or lead you plan to use it for?
Burgerman wrote:You realise that a 100Ah lead battery can be a 30Ah one too? Just depends on how you use the chair. So knowing the state of charge by measuring Ah will be no better than the battery guage on the chair.
So for lead its pretty useless.
For lithium, if it tells you the range based on Ah used and you stick to say 80% max discharge it can be reasonably safe. But if you use a bms rather than a hobby charger its posible to have one cell go below 2.5V while the rest are still at 3.1xxV and kill those cells. So for lithium monitoring you want to see cell voltages. Not overall voltage and Ah.
The Ah remaining in a lead battery depends on discharge current.
An 8mph chair will give you say 35 Ah from a full 100Ah lead battery if you do 16 miles in 2 hours first thing non stop.
The same 8mph chair used for 1 mile here, another their, all day long will give you maybe 80Ah as you are discharging over 10 hours or so.
And if you do a mix of both as most of us do its anyones guess.
So do you consider 30A as a full battery or 90? 100% point is 20 hours = 100Ah.
1C means 1 hour. 0.5C means 2 hours.
What are you going on about? You're going off on one again.
Burgerman wrote:Yes the APP will display lovely figures. I have read the manual. At least about half of it. But on lead they are meaningless. And on lithium they dont show cell voltages which is all you really need.What are you going on about? You're going off on one again.
No I am trying to explain that it wont tell you much of any use on lead over the wheelchair display. It cannot tell you how many Ah you have left to use. That varies with how you use the chair hugely AFTER your reading, hence the chart you cant understand. So its almost as useless as the usual wheelchair battery meter for lead. That also reads amps and applies a peukert calculation.
I mentioned the BMS because with no PL8 currently available the cells can be miles out of balance on lithium and you cant know. So while the Ah reading will be reasonably reliable on lithium (practically no peukert) it doesent prevent 1 cell going below a safe voltage while the pack as a whole has 50% left... For lithium you must see all cells on your display individually.
I cant dumb it down any more I have tried. You dont want to know the important details. So I give up.
woodygb wrote:The Smart Shunt appears to at least make an attempt to involve Peukert in it's capacity / usage calculation.
Page 8
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/do ... -IT-PT.pdf
Burgerman wrote:Yes. The issue is this.
I set off in a fully charged 100Ah wheelchair at max speed for 1 hour headed to the bank and back. 1 hour at 8mph is about half the range, (8 miles) and around the 2 hour rate so its peukert correction thinks I am going to get only say 40Ah to 50Ah. So it thinks that you used 20Ah and are at 50% discharged...
Then when home I watch TV for a couple of hours. The battery then recovers much of its charge as the charged inner lead paste recharges the surface/acid face. Reversing the peukert corrction that it has applied. So now I have an 70/80Ah battery again and it thinks theres only 20 left. It recovers more the less its used during the day. So nowhere near the 50% point at 25Ah used it thought was correct. So I may have tons left indoors or outdoors at a later time after some time in recovery.
In other words it would be reasonably accurate if you didnt stop for a natter or to eat. OR go fast for half an hour hen slow or go back home downhill. It isnt accurate unless the discharge rate is reasonably constant.
I just think its a lot to spend on something that basically does the same thing as a wheelchar controller does now. And for lithium, it will be accurate in Ah, but has no cell monitor and thats really the only thing that does need watching if you travel long distances. For lithium there must be better monitors.
Burgerman: I cant dumb it down any more I have tried. You dont want to know the important details. So I give up.
Terry: Please do
Burgerman wrote:If thats the only settings then you need to click advanced or something?
What settings will you choose?
Burgerman wrote:Burgerman: I cant dumb it down any more I have tried. You dont want to know the important details. So I give up.
Terry: Please do
And comments such as:
"You are going off on one again, what are you on about?"
Just shows your ignorance.
Any charger, can charge any battery badly. Most do exactly this. And thats why theres a saying "batteries dont die, they are killed". By ignorance such as you display above.
Why is it so complicated? Because IT IS. You might not like that, but thats the truth. You emailed tesla! Even if they had replied the answer would be way more complex than my replys! And you would just delete it because it was complicated... Batteries are NOT SIMPLE.
Tiny differences in settings, and currents and voltages is the difference between big problems sooner or later and a HEALTHY, reliable system that lasts many years.
Batteries and charging ARE complicated if you want to do it right. If you dont give a crap, then just carry on doing as you do. Details matter.
This shunt is just to let me know what the cells are doing.
When did you last have your calibrating stuff calibrated at the factory?
I'll let you know when I have read the manual.
Burgerman wrote:That depends on what you are expecting this to tell you. But right now it looks to be set to lithium ion so it wont tell you anything useful. It will tell you your battery isnt full when it is.
Tail current - Some lithium battery chargers stop charging when the current drops below a set threshold. The tail current must be set higher in this case.
Discharge floor This setting is used in “the time to go” calculation and is set at 50% by default. But lithium batteries usually can be discharge significantly deeper than 50%. The discharge floor can be set to a value between 10 and 20%,unless the battery supplier advises otherwise.Important warning. Lithium batteries are expensive and can be irreparably damaged due to very deep discharge or overcharge. Damage due to deep discharge can occur if small loads slowly discharge the battery when the system is not in use. Some examples of these loads are alarm systems, standby currents of DC loads and back current drain of battery chargers or charge regulators. A residual discharge current is especially dangerous if the system has been discharged all the way until a low cell voltage shutdown has occurred. At this moment the state of charge can be as low as 1%.
The lithium battery will get damaged if any remaining current is drawn from the battery. This damage can be irreversible.A residual current of 1mA for example can damage a 100Ah battery if the battery has been left in discharged state during more than 40 days (1mA x 24h x 40 days = 0.96Ah).The SmartShunt draws <1mA from a 12V battery. The positive supply must therefore be interrupted if a system with Li-ion batteries is left unattended during a period long enough for the current draw by the SmartShunt to completely discharge the battery.
Burgerman wrote:I agree. But hes bought this now.
Tail current - Some lithium battery chargers stop charging when the current drops below a set threshold. The tail current must be set higher in this case.
So if you set say 250mA as the termination current on a PL8 then this should be set to say 500mA or even 1A or 1% of a 100Ah battery or .5% of a 200Ah battery? So that it can tell the difference between it ending the CC stage and the balance, and CV stage and determine if its really full or not? So what you set this to depends of what you set the termination current to in the PL8 settings. And must be greater. But not too much greater. Maybe double?Discharge floor This setting is used in “the time to go” calculation and is set at 50% by default. But lithium batteries usually can be discharge significantly deeper than 50%. The discharge floor can be set to a value between 10 and 20%,unless the battery supplier advises otherwise.Important warning. Lithium batteries are expensive and can be irreparably damaged due to very deep discharge or overcharge. Damage due to deep discharge can occur if small loads slowly discharge the battery when the system is not in use. Some examples of these loads are alarm systems, standby currents of DC loads and back current drain of battery chargers or charge regulators. A residual discharge current is especially dangerous if the system has been discharged all the way until a low cell voltage shutdown has occurred. At this moment the state of charge can be as low as 1%.
But it doesent know the cell levels. So this setting is pretty much a guess. I would set to 10% and that leaves a 10% margin for individual cells discharging below that figure. Without wasting 36Ah of his battery!The lithium battery will get damaged if any remaining current is drawn from the battery. This damage can be irreversible.A residual current of 1mA for example can damage a 100Ah battery if the battery has been left in discharged state during more than 40 days (1mA x 24h x 40 days = 0.96Ah).The SmartShunt draws <1mA from a 12V battery. The positive supply must therefore be interrupted if a system with Li-ion batteries is left unattended during a period long enough for the current draw by the SmartShunt to completely discharge the battery.
So fit a BATTERY switch as the chairs system also takes out power. An anderson loop, or a accessible battery plug etc or whatever is easiest.
As for the correct voltage at setting 2, then you want to choos a figure that shows its fully charged. So a safe figure is 3.5V per cell, or 28.4V.
Why? Because the current 29.2V setting is or should be way above the charge voltage of 3.6v x 8 = 28.8V And we charge at 28.8V and so this must be set at a little less like 28.4 to 28.6V to be sure we exceed this. In use a FULLY charged battery can be between 28.80V straight after charge, and within a hundred yards that will fall to 3.4V or below. Typically 3.38Volts or similar. The rate of voltage drop is far flom linear!
You might want to buy a cell log and check when the chair is near empty, to be sure you are not damaging a weaker cell already. With 10% in reserve that should not be an issue. But best to know.
steves1977uk wrote:I don't see the point in a SmartShunt when a cheap 8S cell voltage checker can be more useful.
Steve
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