Black Sheep...

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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 13 Jun 2013, 13:04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saEDf6EV9wg

Venice - new yesterday. Looks like a nice colourful place. Full screen is a must!
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby MrSpudboy » 18 Jun 2013, 04:05

nice vid.

Kids, huh? It didn't have anything to do with the lathe in your bedroom?
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jun 2013, 09:58

Its not my vid. So no. But I made prop adapters, but that's it. You can buy them though.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 25 Jul 2013, 21:56

For anyone interested in RC or extending the Hobby RC transmitter range. I just changed the max range from my JR 12x Transmitter from about 1 optimum, often less to about 4 miles.

By fitting a 2000mW WiFi booster. It allows normal operation, is dead neat and tidy, and gives exactly 12dB of gain using the same antenna.

That quadruples the range, as it transmits at 2000mW rather than 128mW. Now I can fly MUCH further away, with my quad copter, and up to around 4 miles high with my gliders... This is of course all illegal, but who cares. And at least twice that, with a high gain antenna!

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images-JR-12X/
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Lord Chatterley » 27 Jul 2013, 00:31

Have you polished that too? :roll:

LC
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 27 Jul 2013, 02:01

Of course. I do it to everything. Even the booster had its bolt hole mounting cut off, Filed, cleaned up and reassembled and the RC transmitter was stripped and rebuilt super clean.

That RC transmitter is all magnesium casings, back and front. Comes apart like a gun, everything just fits. All the bolts are now stainless polished too! :oops: OCD.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 29 Jul 2013, 22:32

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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 14 Aug 2013, 21:35

Shapes.

Strange word if you keep saying it, it starts to sound odd.

How's summer in your area? Here's my street from about 100 feet. Today. Windy, cloud, and sun all at once. Every-ones gardens are green from the rain.

Shapes is the song. My neighbours are used to seeing this come and go now. I can now do about 4 or 5 miles range all over the town. This is just my street though. Download to desktop first or it wont play as its too high bitrate.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/shapes.mp4 movie, just 3 mins, 250mb. This is the low res 720 version. Its part of an illustration for a web page. so is covered in text.

The 1080 one version is HUGE and very detailed. No text.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/shapes-1080.mp4 Should you want to see how good a tiny gopro camera is.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby TerryP » 16 Mar 2014, 20:22

What great coverage of your booster installation... thank you and very nice work. I have a question if you don't mind. The JR12 radio is gorgeous but more than I can spend. I'm working with a Walkera Devo 10 and it has selectable output power (1,3,10,30,100, 150mW) Do you think I could use a lower power setting instead of using an attenuator?
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 16 Mar 2014, 21:26

You could.

It all depends on which booster. They all have a max input level quoted. And to get full power you have to be right on it, but not over it.

The booster is linear. Meaning if max input is 100mW (20db) and you feed it exactly this you get 2 watts of power out.
But feed it 50mW and get only 1 watt out.

The difference is 3db in power level. 6db will either half or double the range.

So you need to know the real specs of booster and transmitter. Your quoted figures will likely be RF out, not electrical power level. So if like mine it has a 2.3db gain antenna you need to deduct this to get the electrical signal power output.

Feed it too much and you get 2 problems, distortion, and failure while flying...
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby TerryP » 17 Mar 2014, 15:31

Thank you. I have a background in electronics (a lifetime ago :o)) but I have very little knowledge of RF stuff. I've ordered the same booster you used but I doubt if I can get any specs on this Chinese radio. I'm already not happy with Walkera. The main board in the TX has a resistor missing so channel 10 doesn't work and they won't do anything about it, even though I sent them a picture! I won't be buying any more of their products. It's amazing that they would loose a customer for the sake of a tenth of a cent resistor and a two dollar stamp! Anyway, I'm stuck with this one and I'll scare up a 100 ohm smd resistor and solder it in.

I'm sure the power ratings are rf out. Does it make sense to assume a gain of 2db for the antenna and set the output power to 100mw which it would leave me with 18 db into the booster? If this is right it would cut range a little but keep the booster safe and still increase my range considerably.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 17 Mar 2014, 17:54

If they stick to the rules, and you have a short typical TX antenna, then yes. The transmit power will be 17.8db, and the booster wants whatever they say maximum is for the one you buy.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby TerryP » 18 Mar 2014, 04:41

Thank you very much.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 18 Mar 2014, 11:27

Easy test. Use a stock transmitter, fly plane/quad away, watch distance in goggles and failsafe will kick in at say 1 mile. Land.

Do the same ON SAME DAY, with the 2 watt boosted transmitter, (3.2 watts radiated RF) and get 4+ miles and its working properly.

Each 6db gain - double range and 4x electrical mw power.
100mw = 1 mile. 20db output.
100mw x 4 = 400mw = 2 miles. 26db out.
400mw x 4 = 1600mw = 4 miles. 32db out.
1600mw x 2 = 3200mw = about 4 x 1.333 or 5.3 miles. Another 3db out so 35db total or a 15db gain...

So you should really get about 5.3 times the range. (4 to 6 real world reliable testable LOS miles plus).
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby TerryP » 18 Mar 2014, 18:35

We still have 2 feet of snow here but if spring ever comes I'll do the test. Thanks again!
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby mous3 » 20 Mar 2014, 07:51

Burgerman wrote:No, women are hard work. And unfathomable, confused and never happy. And I am 53 and still dont know which way up they go.

And babies! No thanks. Rather stick to my helis/multi rotors/gliders and bar wenches...


I agree totally with the above. Except for the never happy part
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Re: JR12X DSMX conversion

Postby hon » 07 May 2014, 10:56

Hi, I have looked at the page on the JR 12X DSMX and booster conversion. It is an excellent article and just as what I have been looking for years. I have a JR 12X non-module transmitter and would like to convert it to use Weatronic transmitter module. I have an 12X MV (module version) and all I needed to do was to unplug the 72Mhz module and insert the Weatronic module into the slot. I have asked many people if I can do the same on the 12X non module version (it is still in DSM2 BTW). All people I have asked said it is impossible. The Weatronic uses the PCM signal from the JR 12XMV. I am wondering if the PCM signal is also present on the 12X non module edition once I remove the cover and the original DSM2 2.4G PCB? The two rows of pins seem the same as the 12XMV.

Thank you in advance.

Kam Hon
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 07 May 2014, 11:05

Yes. You need a PPM based module first, 72, 35mhz etc, so that you can choose PPM mode, (PCM?) (then plug in your module. You will lose some higher channels I think.Not sure.

There is no difference between the two transmitters other than: The antenna and its cable, and a plain rear cover.

The DSMX or DMSS (module) or the board from it, with a 2 watt booster and 3200mw RF is far better than weatronics for signal security and range. But not technically legal. Weatronics + booster would give about 8 miles range or more due to sensitive receivers.

Also has at least as good range as the JR EZUHF module. That wont fit anyway! And more "interference" proof. UHF better through hills and walls though.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby hon » 07 May 2014, 14:00

Thank you for your explanation. Is this the same booster that you used in your conversion?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUNHANS-Taiwan-Upgrade-IEEE802-11-B-G-N-WiFi-Booster-Amplifier-2Watt-33dBm-2-4G-/121122891258?pt=US_Networking_Boosters_Extenders_Antennas&hash=item1c337ca5fa

You talked about signal security. Did you mean dsmx has better signal security than weatronic even before boosting?

Thank you again.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 07 May 2014, 14:20

The casing and specs are the same. Mines a BlueSkySea one. Seems to have a much higher output than the 2.5 watt and 2 watt Sunhans one. So while I think that one may be the same, I cant tell without trying it.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2W-WiFi-Wirel ... 0647831757

I know these are OK.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby hon » 07 May 2014, 14:40

Thanks for the link.

Is dsmx inherently better than weatronic even before boosting?
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 07 May 2014, 14:53

You talked about signal security. Did you mean DSMX has better signal security than Weatronic even before boosting?


It has the ability to use FOUR antennas, and four separate receivers in four separate X Y Z planes, and in four different WELL SPACED positions in the aircraft. It is also uses DUAL frequencies (same as Weatronic), and frequency hopping in a pseudo random pattern. It has therefore a better ability to avoid multipath null spots, and have a receiver in the correct polarisation/orientation as well as having these spaced around the aircraft avoiding masking by carbon, engines, batteries etc.

So for normal range stuff, up to about a half mile it is better. Weatronic however has better ultimate range. Since it uses the same 100mW RF output, (50mW + 3dB antenna gain), but has a higher gain receiver resulting in greater range.

So if I was choosing a 2.4 system for best RANGE, then I would go with Weatronic.
If it was for normal line of sight flying, with a fast plane, I would use a GOOD DSMX installation with 4 separated correctly spaced and orientated receivers.

But don't worry both are good!

If I wanted best of both, (range and ultimate security) I would use a 2 watt booster and DSMX with 4 receivers... And that's what I do use.

I would also consider a LRS such as EzUHF for long range. But even though frequency agile these do not reject interference as well. Because while DSMX is transmitting on 2 channels just a few percent of the time, along with most other 2.4 equipment, anything on the lower frequencies is "on" all of, or most of the time. So only one device can use a channel at a time. around 50 2.4ghz DSMX systems can use a channel at once and still work.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby hon » 07 May 2014, 15:21

If I use the US module of 12X DSMX module, it will transmit 200mW, right? So it is already double the power of Weatronic before using the booster. Is this the better way (i.e. US DSMX module + quad recievers) than Weatronic's 100mW + sensitive receivers? (In terms of range and interference). I try not to go the booster way if I can. And I only fly in open area (slope soaring).
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 07 May 2014, 15:30

200Mw RADIATED (theres a 2.32dB antenna gain)

So, US transmitters have total 23dB output.
Most places have 20dB

20dB = 100mW. -2.3dB ant gain means 17.x dB electrical power. Or just over 50mW.
23dB = 200mW. - 2.3dB ant gain means 21.x dB electrical power. Or just over 100mW. (116mW in fact)

It takes a 4x increase in power to double the range. So a US spec transmitter will only give a tiny range increase of about 20%.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Fulliautomatix » 08 May 2014, 01:52

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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 08 May 2014, 10:26

With a 14db gain patch antenna that's about what you would expect from it?

Remember every 3db doubles the power. Every 6db doubles the range. This applies at both ends. So a receiver with a -6db sensitivity advantage will have double the range again.

The problem with this is that any antenna with gain is directional. The greater the gain the more it behaves like a laser.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby hon » 11 May 2014, 10:47

What do you think of the new JR protocol DMSS? How does it compare to FASST, DSMX etc? I can get the DMSS module and plug it into the back of the 12MV (PCM12X). So I think it will also work with the non module 12X. The DMSS module works on PPM. I think it is also available on the 12X non module version right?

Thanks.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby Burgerman » 11 May 2014, 13:42

Yes, DMSS is basically the same as DSMX but has
a) slightly better receivers (for a few tech reasons - but I doubt any real world gain), but with less diversity so swings and roundabouts. Either are good.
b) the GUTS from a DMSS module will fit the non modular 12x. That's certain.

I am not sure but the US ones may be 100mW rather than 200mW output. I saw a one, it was 20db (100mW inc 2.3db antenna gain) marked. The US 200mW ones were 23.x db (200mw.)

Either way I THINK you first need a 35 or 72 module to plug into the "non modular" 12x to access the PPM output before you connect the new board and you MAY lose 4 channels. Never tested by me, as I have a lot of DSMX 10channel receivers... And unless you want the telemetry dmss has no real advantage.
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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby falco peregrinus » 26 May 2014, 13:30

Burgerman, a question for you. (And for anyone else who knows the answer too, for that matter.)

I still haven't actually taken the plunge and bought my quadcopter yet, to a large extent because the man that the Washington Post recently headlined as the "most hated world leader" just brought down a budget that is going to reduce my income very very substantially, and if the budget gets passed by parliament, I won't be able to afford to scratch myself, let alone buy a quadcopter, but anyway, back to the point of this post.

Australian legislation forbids flying model aircraft in prohibited areas and in restricted areas, but I can't find any documentation on where these areas are so that I can avoid flying in them. And the government department responsible for administering that legislation hasn't seen fit to even reply to three emails on the subject. My best guess as to where these areas are documented is in aeronautical charts - am I right there? And as far as I can find out, you have to buy aeronautical charts in order to find out where our illustrious government has forbidden us to fly our model aircraft. Do you know any way of getting them for free?

Secondly, does anyone know the Australian legal definition of "aerodrome" and/ or "controlled airspace" as applicable to the ACAS Regulations? The relevant legislation imposes restrictions on flying model aircraft in those two locations, but doesn't define either term in the regulations covering model aircraft, and again the relevant government department hasn't seen fit to even reply to any of my emails on the subject.

Can anyone answer any of these questions? I will be getting myself a quadcopter sometime or other, definitely (so that I can take up aerial photography as a hobby), but I'll have to at least wait until the present political furore over the national budget is over, so that I can work out whether I can afford to indulge myself with one in the near future, or whether I have to wait a while.

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Re: Black Sheep...

Postby popschief » 26 May 2014, 17:32

Unmaned buzz bombs (Drones) have an unearned bad reputation since some of the really big ones drop bombs on bad guys. The fact of the matter is our toys haven't hurt many people but the beruocrats are hard at it trying to make more rules and regulations. The sky is chuck full of flying things that havn't a clue which airspace is designated what and a large goose could wreck a 747s day just like a quadcopter would if they met at the wrong place. In an effort to keep their machines out of harms way the DJI Phantom Vision has a worldwide database that keeps it from getting into controled airspace even if you try. But here's some of the official rules on the topic for your part of the world. http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip ... ah/dah.pdf
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