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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 23 Feb 2015, 10:19

Have you looked into solar? My cheap Chinese DIY setup more than covers my electricity in summer, and helps a bit in winter. Its 9AM and low sun but right now I am seeing 1.2kw incoming from that free atom bomb in the sky. That's happening when I am in, out, using power or not. Its crazy not to capture free power. Especially where you are.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby LROBBINS » 23 Feb 2015, 14:34

I'd consider solar but for the fact that we live in a building with five apartments and (1) I'd never get our co-owners to go along, and (2) given that it's a condominium arrangement we'd have to meet government regs which would preclude a sensible system like yours (though the state would end up picking up 55% of the inflated cost).
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 23 Feb 2015, 14:53

We too have a "professionally installed" systems that costs double, work worse all connected in series, and then gets government (tax payer) hand-outs to help cover the massive inflated costs. That's what 99% of normal people do. Its the recognised way.

I just choose to ignore it and do as I wanted. Its my way...
As for legitimate? Who knows. Its not technically breaking any rules but is feeding into the grid at times. So its a grey area... Not one that the rules allow for. Theres no reference to this that I can find. It is just plugged into the wall like a laptop. With every inverter having a CE mark. But it certainly works!

Its basically taking the DC and turning it to AC and trying to lift the grids voltage to 265V average from about 245V which obviously it cant manage! So it does its best, and all the power feeds into the wall. If I turn everything off, then it goes into the street and up the wires to other houses...
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby LROBBINS » 23 Feb 2015, 20:52

Yes, your system is the better way to go, but you don't live in the land of endless forms and approvals. I would probably not end up in jail if I put in a system without the required approvals, but you can be sure that I would eventually be forced to take it down and pay some hefty fines. (Or maybe not, depends on the bureaucrat's mood that day.) Ciao, Lenny
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby wilsonintexas » 24 Feb 2015, 02:17

Question on the new charger and parallel charging using the Power 8 charger.
.... (trying to keep costs down....)

I am thinking about a lithium pack for a chair for my daughter. As always cost is a problem..... (I KNOW LONG TERM IT PAYS FOR ITSELF)

One cost is the charger..... at around $240 for one, that would be close to $500 if I need 2.

The manual has a section on parallel charging..... (some of us actually read the thing. :D )

So. It says I need to keep each pack the same... That means either

12S at 44.4 volts
or
14S at 51.8 (which is stretching the 50 volt controller...)

So several questions:
1) How well would it actually work using a single charger, if I split my pack into 2 sets with the same count and only one charger? I know charging time would double, but i think we can adapt for that..... if we charge nightly to keep it charged up.....

2) If I went to 14s, am I pushing the controller to far? (I seem to remember that the cells drop a little, so it would not be at 51 other than the first few minutes ..... I hope..

3) If I went to 12s, how much would I be giving up? (top speed, higher load on current because of slightly higher current)

Anyhow here is the section of the manual that I am basing this discussion on (from the power 8 manual.... )


Parallel charging takes advantage of the PowerLab 8’s high power output. After connecting packs using Safe Parallel Adapters, simply tell PowerLab 8 how many packs are attached—charge/discharge rates are automatically divided among the packs


PowerLab 8 can charge, discharge or cycle up to nine LiPo or A123 packs in parallel. Parallel operations can save a lot of time, but you must follow these rules:  Always use Safe Parallel Adapters (available at the REVOLECTRIX Web site). Never use standard adapters.  Connect only one pack per Safe Parallel Adapter. Daisy-chain multiple adapters!   Parallel operations using Safe Parallel Adapters requires that you connect both the balance wires and discharge wires to the PowerLab 8.   Always observe proper polarity!   Packs must have the same cell count.   Packs must be the same chemistry.  The best way to connect discharge wires in parallel is to stack the plugs on the safety banana cables like this:


Summary: parallel charging. Components:  1 PowerLab 8   1 power source   1 Safe Parallel Adapter for each pack (do not use standard adapters)   2 or more packs (above 9 packs in parallel, you are responsible for determining the charge/discharge current for each pack)   Optional FUIM3 for computer support 
PowerLab 8 mode (Normal or Expansion Channel): Normal.
PowerLab 8 maximum charge power: up to 672W charge to each of two packs charged in parallel using 24VDC/1700W power source.
Constraints:  1 pack per adapter.   Check pack polarity.   Same cell count for all packs.   Use discharge leads

.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Feb 2015, 03:32

Parallel charging doesn't need any special adapters or anything. Those just add fuses to a bunch of simple connections. And overcomplicates stuff... Those are really only needed for hobbyists charging lots of different packs in a hurry. Where they get it wrong!

You need only a custom charge and balance lead making up. Charger at 1 end, and 1 meter away the chair at the other.

But I wouldn't bother parallel charging anyway. With big batteries too much current will flow when you plug them together if they are at different charge levels.

If you use 12 cells you will have a very fast powerful chair. 14s is too many for the roboteq on deceleration during regeneration. I am using 13S only because I am mad.

Since you can charge 8 cells (9 without balancing which you don't want to do) at once then you either use 2 chargers. Or charge 6S and then 7S or 6S for the other half of the battery afterwards. 12S will mean 2X 6S Batts. BUT you can charge each one for about 2 hours from dead to full. So you could easily manage with just one charger... But being disabled isn't cheap, and then you have no backup.

1) How well would it actually work using a single charger, if I split my pack into 2 sets with the same count and only one charger? I know charging time would double, but i think we can adapt for that..... if we charge nightly to keep it charged up.....


72Ah battery X 2 if charged in parallel, is a 142Ah battery. At 40A charge you will get a completely discharged pack (say 50 miles of use) full in 3 hours and a half. If its half discharged (equal to 2 days normal use) then say, 1.7 hours to full.

2) If I went to 14s, am I pushing the controller to far? (I seem to remember that the cells drop a little, so it would not be at 51 other than the first few minutes ..... I hope..


Too much. Regen will give a shutdown and emergency stop probably.

3) If I went to 12s, how much would I be giving up? (top speed, higher load on current because of slightly higher current)


Are these the same 8.5mph AMT (Sunrise) motors I am using?
Then... At full speed with R-net you get 22V and 8.5mph. R-net keeps some for headroom for steering. That's 0.3863 mph per volt.

At a 3.32v per cell average typical working voltage from Headway cells, you get 43.16v with the roboteq full speed output with 13S like the BM3 chair so 16.67mph theoretically.
And so 3.32v = 39.84V with 12S. Or 15.39 mph.

In other words its going to be fast enough to be dangerous. You will try it and program it slower for your daughter! Range will be the same if the same number of total cells are used. You lose only speed.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby wilsonintexas » 24 Feb 2015, 16:52

Thanks for the prompt and well organized reply.

I will probably go with either 10s or 12s and se how it goes.... but that is still a way off.... still trying to get things organized.

I have 2 sets of 6.5 motors from some donor chairs. One set is in ok condition (4 pole) . I have yet to look at the second set.

My daughter is doing a lot better. A little over a year ago her femoral nerve was damaged during a procedure. She has a spinal implant to try and manage the pain. She can not get around the house without crutches some of the time. But still has problems with the leg swelling when she stands or is upright for any length of time. She recently started to drive again.... shich gives her some freedom. A chair will still give her more options when doing things outdoors. (like take the 2 BIG dogs out..... a connie corso and a Russian bear thing....)

I was looking for a 4wd for outdoor activities in Alaska, but she says that that is not needed yet.

So I will probably look to rebuild a more conventional chair to get more range and speed. and the ability to do some outdoor stuff....

She is a your adult..... ok at over 30 probably qualifies as a full adult, (but do not tell her I said so.... :roll: )

anyhow... when the weather breaks down here in Dallas I need to get up to my dads to pick up the donor chair and get going on this.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Feb 2015, 17:08

Don't underestimate the importance of range.

All those that are using lead batteries think that this is adequate. Mostly because many users don't really go far. But even most 30 year old are equally "happy" with the 15 to 20 miles that the manufacturers claim from lead. That you wont achieve in reality. Why?

Because they are accustomed to modifying their expectations. They don't ever just roam about "free" of worry.

So here in my own life for e.g. instead of taking the dog "on foot" so to speak down to the beach, and along it for 4 or 5 miles, and then home I use the van. Why? Because even if the total trip is 15 miles, you are never sure how much there is left. This restricts life, and restricts what you attempt to do. They "train" you not to attempt the things you naturally would do if getting back home wasn't a serious problem and a worry.

So by adding enough unrequired battery reserve, that the user gives out well before the powerchair range does, it actually improves your life.

The other night I was sat in my lead powered chair, looking at a battery gauge showing about 1/2 power left. Those things are not remotely accurate. So I am not sure. Having just got back from the town centre and walked the dog. And got a call from a friend to meet in a town pub about 3 miles away. I DIDNT go, because that's 3 each way... And some more wasted in the pub. And I wasn't sure it would make it back. So the 2nd half is worthless...

Most users are brainwashed by the actual chair to accept this state of affairs as normal and they don't think about it. Adding a Lithium battery that allows 3x the range, allows you to live your life rather than worrying or planning it around a battery.

The other advantage is that you can measure Ah used (or returned by the charger) on every charge. So you can clearly see to the mile how much you had left. With lead you cannot know because of the Peukert issue. You MAY get 50Ah from that 73Ah battery. But the next day you may only get 30 Ah before it stops. Depending on type of usage.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby wilsonintexas » 24 Feb 2015, 20:43

out of courosity, where was the bm3 for the trip to the pub? (NOT being anything but courious here.)

I fully understand the need for range, especially where se is in Alaska...... let's say that it is not remote, she does have a few neighbors..... but you are several miles out of town, down a side road a mile, then off onto her dirt road........ so if she got stranded, it could be a while before there was help. There is always the post man, once a day..... many of the people work in the oilfield, so it is not like they come home everynight. Her husband also works in the oilfield, so he is gone for weeks at a time, so no one to call at home.

But, first I need to get the parts together and get it working......
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Feb 2015, 22:56

All polished and super shiny. I have 3 dirty lead powered chairs that I am wearing out, those are good enough for the salt encrusted and black silt covered wet streets we are having... Waiting for a month till the sun reappears!

Although I am sat in it indoors at the moment. Playing with settings. And looking at swapping front tyres for greater caster stability at daft speeds.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby wilsonintexas » 25 Feb 2015, 03:25

that explains it..... you mentioned the weather before.

funny, in Dallas we are having the same..... not a common thing here.... really fun to watch people drive.... (from someone who grew up in the snow belt.) But 12 years in London did make me forget a lot, and 5 years in Dallas. (time goes fast). Anyhow, I was smart enough to stay inside the past two days..... and more snow coming tonight... 1-3 inches..... FOR DALLAS....

I am looking for the records to see how often it snows here..... it says that a TRACE was recorded back in 1996.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 25 Feb 2015, 20:47

Making up a quality charge & balance lead needs this:

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... -pl8v2.jpg


Also not cheap. Will post a pic of the charge lead when done.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 25 Feb 2015, 23:17

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... nector.jpg

Soldered...

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... le-40A.jpg

Done... 1 meter long.

This will work for a 1 to an 8 cell pack. So perfect for a 24V powerchair with 8 cells.

It is a single 40Amp capable connector, with 9 balance wires for an 8 cell battery. I have 13 cells so I have to waste another 2 hours making another one...

This is a SAFE lead. The 4mm Banana connectors have no bare parts, nothing can short out if it is plugged into the chair. This makes it much safer. There's a 40A fuse under that black webbing nylon just in case.

The other half will go on the chair and connect permanently. This is the neatest, smallest, tidyest way to make a 40A charge/balance cable I have found.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 25 Feb 2015, 23:18

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... nector.jpg

Soldered...

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... le-40A.jpg

Done... 1 meter long.

This will work for a 1 to an 8 cell pack. So perfect for a 24V powerchair with 8 cells.

It is a single 40Amp capable connector, with 9 balance wires for an 8 cell battery. I have 13 cells so I have to waste another 2 hours making another one...

This is a SAFE lead. The 4mm Banana connectors have no bare parts, nothing can short out if it is plugged into the chair. This makes it much safer. There's a 40A fuse under that black webbing nylon just in case.

The other half will go on the chair and connect permanently. This is the neatest, smallest, tidyest way to make a 40A charge/balance cable I have found. 2 will charge up to a 16S pack. With 2 Cellpro PL8v2 chargers, or with one if you do them separately.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby ex-Gooserider » 28 Feb 2015, 05:24

As data points - in the US, most circuits are 15A / 110V, and it is rare to encounter 110V appliances or tools that are rated to draw more than 1500W - I'm not sure that you can get a UL listing if you have a 15A compatible plug and draw more than that. Some circuits are 20A, but even those often are only wired w/ 15A outlets. (the usual 20A 110V outlet has a slightly different slot configuration, and so does the 20A rated plug, it is designed so you can plug a 15A device into a 20A outlet, but not the other way around)

Household electrical service is single-phase 220V - that is supplied from the power company as a center-tapped transformer, with the center tap tied to ground - thus you have two 110V "legs" that are out of phase with each other. Most outlets get one of the two legs, and the 'neutral' and 'ground' wires. Major appliances that need more power (clothes driers, ovens, stoves, etc...) get both legs for 220V, and may not use the neutral for anything but grounding, or running extra things like the clock on the back of the stove....

Secondary question - assuming the longer charge times are not an issue, would it be possible to set up a more than 8S pack (obviously S would need to be an even number) kind of like the way we can do lead bricks - so that we would have a replaceable jumper that let us have either two packs in series for running, or put the two packs in parallel for charging? I'd expect that the balance leads for the two packs would need to be kept separated except when charging, but that would be easy enough to do....

I can't think of a reason it wouldn't be possible, am I missing something?

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 28 Feb 2015, 12:10

Other than wiring and connectors then no. Hobby people always charge 2 or 4 or more packs at once in parallel.

You can buy fused safe parallel charge boards to make sure you don't burn and balance wires too.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 02 Mar 2015, 16:07

Household electrical service is single-phase 220V - that is supplied from the power company as a center-tapped transformer, with the center tap tied to ground - thus you have two 110V "legs" that are out of phase with each other. Most outlets get one of the two legs, and the 'neutral' and 'ground' wires. Major appliances that need more power (clothes driers, ovens, stoves, etc...) get both legs for 220V, and may not use the neutral for anything but grounding, or running extra things like the clock on the back of the stove....


Over here there are high tension 3 phase 750kv, 500kv, 264kv, 132kv, 33kv, 11kv and then almost always a street or one side of a street gets fed at 240V single phase, and a neutral, from a large sub station. We don't get 2 phases. You can touch the earth, or the neutral, and a voltmeter will usually show 3 to 9 volts worst case between them. Neutral and Earth are tied together at the sub station. So no transformers on poles unless you live out in the middle of nowhere.

If you want more than 100 to 150A @ 240V then you get three phases. So you get 3x 240V to neutral, or 415V phase to phase. Most houses are 240V (actually 340V peak to peak here) at 13A per wall socket, and about 100 top 150A total before you blow the main incoming fuse. If you touch it, it bites. When working on kilns some time ago I managed to touch 2 phases at the same time, which is about 480v peak to peak. That hurt!

Things like 3.1KW plug in water heaters, fan heaters, and stuff are common. A typical electric shower would be 8 or 9kW. (so 45A cables etc at 240V). And we use 50 Cycles rather than 60. So things like clocks would run at a different speed.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby ex-Gooserider » 04 Mar 2015, 05:10

In the US, the 'safety ground' wire is tied to the Neutral return wire at the electrical service entrance where the power comes into the house. That point is also connected to earth ground - usually either a long copper rod driven into the ground or the water mains, or both (there are code requirements as to just how it has to be done) At least in theory, NO current should ever actually flow on the safety ground wire, and it should always have a zero volt potential to the Neutral (which is a current carrier) The theory is that the safety ground wire is attached to the outer case of the equipment, but not to any 'live' parts - if a live part shorts to the case, then the power flows out the safety ground and blows the fuse... If the outer case is plastic, and they do some other internal stuff to make sure that no leakage to the outside is possible, then you are 'double insulated' and don't need the third wire....

Circuits where there is a higher than normal shock risk - i.e. bathrooms, kitchens, swimming pools, outdoor outlets, etc. have to have "GFCI" or Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt" protection. In the GFCI device they have a sensor that compares the current in the hot wire to the current in the Neutral return, which should be the same. If there is any leakage, then the two will differ and trip the device...

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby maker102 » 06 Mar 2015, 23:16

For the life of me I cannot think of the names for the connectors. Also where did you find the leads? My cells should be here in about a week so perfect timing.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 07 Mar 2015, 00:57

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... -pl8v2.jpg

Leads? What are leads?

I ordered 12 AWG silicone black/red cable. (eBay)
I ordered the Sub-D connectors from a UK supplier but anyone from RS Components, Farnels, or other component supplier can supply these.
I ordered some thinner balance cable connectors in 36 inch lengths from the Revolectrix PL8 charger supplier, at the same time as I ordered the "safe" banana plugs.

I think think all the links are on this thread.

Oh and some nylon mesh sheath, heatshrink etc - eBay.

Added... The links and part numbers are on a different thread! Oops.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 07 Mar 2015, 01:02

http://uk.farnell.com/norcomp/680s13w31 ... dp/2294339

http://uk.farnell.com/norcomp/680s13w31 ... dp/2294339

http://www.store.revolectrix.com/Produc ... sion-Cable

http://www.store.revolectrix.com/Produc ... Plug-Cable

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... =&_sacat=0

Balance wire (for battery - chair - side:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351091757644? ... EBIDX%3AIT

I used 5.75 Amp size here: All in red...


Manufacturer: NORCOMP
Order Code: 2294341
Manufacturer Part No 680S13W3203L401


Manufacturer: NORCOMP
Order Code: 2294339
Manufacturer Part No 680S13W3103L401

Search the part numbers for cheapest local supplier... REALLY not cheap, but extremely good quality. You better make a good job of it!!!

Don't forget to get two 25 pin metal sub D shells.

http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/20110 ... try-nickel

Allows 40A charge, and has enough small pins for your 9 balance wires with some spare. So one connector good for 8 cell battery. If you are 45 or 48V you need two cables.

Shells:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390997433597? ... EBIDX%3AIT

Sleeving:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290814495525? ... EBIDX%3AIT

Heatshrink - quality, glue lined:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-Adhesiv ... 2a2885b834
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 07 Mar 2015, 18:45

Connector wiring pin detail

Where 2 large pins are used for charge current.
9 small pins used for balance connectors.

Leaving 1 small, and 1 large pin unused.
These could be linked on the charge lead, to provide a circuit that closes when you plug in, to switch of the chair via its inhibit system if you wish to stop it driving while on charge.

Where 0 is the POS on the balance connector on the charger. And 8 is the NEG end of the ribbon.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 09 Mar 2015, 11:51

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 09 Mar 2015, 11:54

Image

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... nector.jpg Full image... If your screen is small.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby ex-Gooserider » 10 Mar 2015, 03:59

Looks like a nice build.... I might have been tempted to get different wire colors (makes it easier to verify or work on later) and I'm still of the opinion that banana plugs are not desirable (even 'safe' ones) so I'd be inclined to do surgery on the charger to replace the banana jacks w/ Andersons... However that is mostly detail stuff...

ART
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby flagman1776 » 10 Mar 2015, 16:11

I am using the 2 plug system (power leads plus balance leads) which I think will be more flexible over future devises... but I can see great value in the one plog approach if one must rely on a carer to plug in to charge. Just simpler.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 10 Mar 2015, 16:57

These incidentally are the same connectors used on Invacare GB Motor setup and wiring loom.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby nandol » 12 Mar 2015, 21:11

John.why you didnt use headway 15A in bm3 ? obg
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby nandol » 13 Mar 2015, 03:13

John.why you didnt use headway 15A in bm3 ? obg
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 13 Mar 2015, 11:12

Too long...
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