First project chair

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Re: First project chair

Postby Burgerman » 04 Jan 2016, 22:34

Is this a concern I should have with the chair?


If you only drive on hard surfaces then it doesn't matter. Fat tyres mostly waste power when at home, turning left/right all the time. Measured. A large difference. But I have a foot of tyre width. In a straight line on the pavement there's very little difference, but there is some easily measured so it makes *some* difference outdoors too.
Drive on grass with the dog any distance, and apart from getting stuck, narrow tyres eat more power rather than less and you end up losing out in range rather than winning. So it depends on what you plan to do. And how important range is.

My BM3 chair has about 45 miles even with fat tyres due to the large lithium battery. And that's with a high speed chair. Where the softer tyre seemed like a good compromise.

The chair I am rebuilding now, has very low rolling resistance. download/file.php?id=4165&mode=view

Because it has a high ply count (6) so is quite a stiff tubeless construction, and because its a radial, and because its a 2 inch larger rolling diameter, and also because its a rounded profile. So only puts its "width" on the deck when on the soft turf/dirt track/snow or whatever. These are fat, and have lower rolling resistance than the stock crappy powerchair 300 x 8 cross ply grey tyres. Add to that, the lack of weight over the casters, lowering turning and rolling losses at the front, the 4x greater battery storage, and the 50lb weight loss from the battery (over a 100lb from the complete chair) and I expect to get MORE than 4x the range of a stock 24 mile lead chair... Will it be as comfortable? I don't think so. But I built this one to look cool!

There's more to consider than just width.
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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 11 Jan 2016, 18:14

Image

I had some friends help get the front forks (but not the tires yet) switched over and also got the 100A control module installed. All that's left is to switch the seating stuff, tilt and battery box top cover / tray.

Image

I think this is the automatic drive lockout? Is this what locks the rear wheelie bars / reduces speed when tilted past a certain threshold? Will the chair function properly without it? Granted, I'm not dumb enough to tilt wayyy back and drive fast and thus, flip. I only tilt when I get in bed / shower.

Also, the tilt on my current chair works through the joystick. Moving that to the new chair, I think I'm going to have to wire it up to a separate toggle switch as the Qtronix joystick doesn't appear to have a way to control the tilt. Hopefully that won't be too much trouble.
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Re: First project chair

Postby rustyjames » 12 Jan 2016, 01:16

Hey Play,

Your chair is coming along well; I'm a 646 fan too. I've never seen that type of lockout, only this type: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Brake-Lock ... xy5QtR8qH9 which requires a separate mount that also has adjustable stops for the seat tilt angle.

But I would think it could be disconnected, although if you're going to use tilt you shouldn't. That locks the tipper wheels, otherwise you can flip backwards when tilting.

And if you want to control the tilt through the joystick you'll need one of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/penny-giles-act ... MWr7fwTYWw

They are available a lot cheaper on ebay, you just have to keep looking and be patient. And they are also available without the light option so they are even less. Of course you could also hook the tilt to a toggle switch as well.
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Re: First project chair

Postby ex-Gooserider » 13 Jan 2016, 09:25

The Qtronix is a rebadged Pilot+. So all parts from Qtronix and the Pilot + systems are 100% interchangeable and can be mixed and matched as you wish....

The Pilot + controls ONLY the motors with the basic power module, and uses a secondary 'ALM' (Actuator / Light Module) box to control the tilt, lights, seat elevators and so on. There are a few variations of the ALM depending on just what it allows you to control, but it does no harm to have functions that aren't used.

If you look at the power module, you will see there are two places where you can plug in a joystick cord, sometimes the unused one has a cap over it to keep out most of the dirt. The ALM has a cord that plugs into the second socket, that's what it's there for....

The system is constantly running internal tests to see what is hooked up, and ONLY gives you functions to control the things that are there, so if you don't have an ALM module plugged in, you won't have access to any of those functions. If you do have an ALM, but haven't connected a given actuator to it, you won't get access to that actuators 'control space'.

However the system doesn't 'know' what chair actuator is plugged into a given spot on the ALM, if you plug the footrest actuator into the seat back spot, the seat back function will work the foot rest.... With the exception of lights, IF you have an ALM connected, AND actuators connected to some or all the function spots, the 'MODE' switch on the joystick will allow the joystick front/back motion to sequentially cycle through all the available choices, lighting up the corresponding LED on that little wheelchair icon under the speed LED's - the joystick left / right will then control that function.

This does mean that to change something you have to stop, then hunt through the modes, adjust, and then return....

My personal opinion is that this is a pain, so I feel that it is better to have a separate switch for each function that lets me adjust things 'on the fly'... I look at the 'mode' selection method as something that is really only efficient for those who have limitations on their ability to work a separate switch...

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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 13 Jan 2016, 19:54

I finally got everything transferred over and have seemingly hit another issue.

Twice already in the past few hours, the battery lights on the joystick will start blinking rapidly while the chair is stationary. The first time, I turned the chair off then back on and it went away. The second time (while I was opening my front door), it did it again. This time, it took multiple power cycles for it to go away. The joystick itself is inoperable while flashing meaning I can't drive. A loose battery connection doesn't seem likely since I'm sitting still when it happens (but maybe still possible?). Any ideas?
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Re: First project chair

Postby rustyjames » 13 Jan 2016, 20:38

Do you have a programming cable and software to check the fault codes? It can be a lot of things, but first place to start is with the batteries, cables, connections, etc.
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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 13 Jan 2016, 20:50

I just purchased a cable from woody earlier this week so it'll be maybe a week or so before it arrives. I also have the software ready and waiting from years ago. I didn't even think about the error codes that it might throw, good idea. Also, now that I think about it, one of the battery terminal connectors used had some corrosion on it...
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Re: First project chair

Postby expresso » 14 Jan 2016, 02:52

Hi - i have the same chair - about a year old - the seat lift i have came from motion concepts its a sissor lift 12 inch - and i use it alot - first time with the lift
i used to use the tilt to get up also same way - sit at the edge - that still works for me - but the lift up is alot better and safer -

those wires in front of the control box - its a motorized system which suppose to lock the anti tippers when you tilt back at a certain angle - if its working -

so they stay on the ground and dont move - now my chair actually came to me with that part removed - Motion concepts put there seating on it and removed that - i dont have the motor or the wires -

the result was my rear wheels where on the ground all the time then - i didnt like that - had them figure out how to keep them off the ground and they did -

i tilt back - lift etc, and never had a problem so far - but within reason - i wont lift the seat all the way and then tilt back all the way - i have tired it - but that feels scary to me - the chair didnt move though -

you have to be careful no matter what - use your common sense - - nice chair and color is nice
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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 15 Jan 2016, 00:51

Another day and more progress. I had a friend help me swap out the right motor with a used one I got on eBay. The one the chair came with was making a pretty loud noise so I took a gamble on an eBay used set. So far, so good. Now both motors are quiet as they should be (much quieter than the motors on my S-636, something that sure surprised me).

I also tightened down the connections to the batteries and replaced the corroded part. Again, so far, so good (no flashing light errors yet, fingers crossed). Oh, and I switched the joystick back to a solid arm. The swing-away arm was a good idea in theory but didn't work for me personally since I use that section of the chair when scooting in and out. I also removed the automatic drive lockout.

Next on the agenda is to get the front wheels switched over (hopefully tonight). The bearings in the old wheels are pretty squeaky and the tires are worn down. I also plan to tackle lifting the rear casters off the ground, find a permanent place to mount the tilt switch (I have a spot in mind but need to trim down a piece of metal to make it work) and get a nut welded to the bottom for a bolt to use the EZ Lock in the van.
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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 27 Jan 2016, 23:40

I swapped the right motor about two weeks ago as mentioned in my last post. It sounds and behaves fine while going forwards. In reverse, it has a pretty serious whine to it. Aside from brushes, is there anything maintenance-wise that I could do that might alleviate the issue? I can get a video of the noise if need-be to help diagnose it.

I also got the front wheels switched over. Despite having more tread, I think they are worn unevenly as they are slightly bumpy at full speed on smooth surfaces. I'll look into replacing them soon with new tires.

I picked up a Roho Mosaic cushion and am trying it for the first time today. The verdict is still out on it as I plan to adjust the air pressure over the coming days to see what works best. I haven't yet decided if I want to fool with trying the nylon seat sling instead of the heavy steel plate.

I'm hoping to find a matching seat frame soon and once I do, i'll get some more pictures.
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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 02 Feb 2016, 02:47

I'd hoped to do more this weekend but what I assume is food poising has been kicking my butt for the past few days. Nevertheless, I was able to get a friend to weld a bolt on the bottom of the chair so I can lock into the EZ Lock in my van.

Image

It's not very pretty (he's not a welder by trade lol) but it'll be plenty strong. He even happened to have a can of spray paint that sorta kinda matches lol.

We also drilled some new holes in the seat pan and moved it back an inch but in use, it didn't work so back to the original position it went. The chair handled completely different but more importantly, sitting an inch back made transfers nearly impossible by myself.
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Re: First project chair

Postby Burgerman » 02 Feb 2016, 11:41

As long as you can be sure the weld will not fail if you hit something it will be safe. Belt an old bolt with a hammer hard to see what happens. Other thing, it looks pretty low. You can raise the vehicle tie down on a 30mm spacer and shorten the bolt to gain more ground clearance? I put mine on two 35mm metal spacer bars.
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Re: First project chair

Postby rustyjames » 02 Feb 2016, 14:56

Sorry, but that is in no way an acceptable EZ lock mount point. And being aluminum welded by someone that's not even a certified weldor? The proper EZ lock mount for that chair consists of a flat steel plate that fits in the bottom of the battery box with a simple nut welded to it in the center. It would be really simple to make and install with 4 nuts and bolts. And I agree with BM, that bolt sticking down will catch everything.
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Re: First project chair

Postby Burgerman » 02 Feb 2016, 17:28

Its steel isnt it? Alloy certainly wont be adequate in an accident and will be ripped off the chair. Use a 2lb lump hammer and if the M16 bolt bends first it will be OK.

Heres my DIY one:

Image

Steel, long threads as the nuts and plate ate all M16 threaded. Welded by TIG and an expert to the bottom of:

Image

So I have 3 positions. And over 1 inch of thread. And its going nowhere. My life depends on it.
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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 02 Feb 2016, 18:14

It's the same setup I've used on my other chair. A piece of bent metal was welded to the bracket already on the chair, a large nut goes inside that and the bolt screws into and locks in with another locking nut. Height-wise, it works fine (it probably just looks low from the angle I took the picture). It clears door thresholds, all but the tallest of speed bumps (when I clip tall speed bumps, the bolt never budged), ramp inclines and so on without issue. The EZ Lock base in the van is already sitting on an inch-thick piece of steel as yes, it was too low the way it came so we modified (raised) it. The only thing I ever get caught on is wires on the rear wheelie bars lol (plan to fix that soon).
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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 02 Feb 2016, 18:20

Image

I was trying to come up with a solution to plug the hole as I was doing laundry and it was right in front of me. The towel rack has several black hole plugs and waddaya know, they fit (almost) perfectly (I had to sand down the lip on the backside to get it to fit). I kinda screwed up the super glue job though. Any advice on how to remove that hazy white residue it leaves on black plastic? I've tried Goo Gone and WD-40 but it's still sorta there.
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Re: First project chair

Postby Burgerman » 02 Feb 2016, 20:42

You cant. Black marker pen and a cloth...
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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 04 Feb 2016, 21:33

I had a bit of spare time earlier and flipped the power / mode toggle switch around on the joystick. As it sat, pressing down on the switch would turn the chair on and off while pressing up would allow me to toggle profiles. Even after relocating the switch to the left port (it was originally on the right side), I would still occasionally bump it with my wrist, turning the chair off mid-drive and activating the soft brake. By flipping it, I would need to somehow accidentally press up on the switch to turn the chair off while driving, an action that seems rather unlikely. Simple but practical :)
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Re: First project chair

Postby Burgerman » 05 Feb 2016, 02:21

I don't know how much hand control you have but by the sound of things you need a better technique. Your arm needs to rest on the armrest top. Including your wrist to give a stable position. Your hand needs to cradle the side of the joystick. As a firm accurate reference position for your thumb and finger to accurately control the joystick. IF the joystick isn't in the correct position as most are not, move it.

Watch the hand! http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4 Its the only way to have sensible control. There shouldn't be any way to knock switches or buttons in error..
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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 05 Feb 2016, 17:45

It's funny that you mention the grip as I've always thought people who drove with just two fingers like that simply didn't know how to drive it correctly (that's how all of my walking friends grip it when they need to move the chair with me out of it). Maybe after all these years, I'm the one that's wrong heh

Image

I've always gripped the joystick like this, controlling it more with wrist movement than individual finger movement. To me, this feels much more stable and in control. Also, you can see how my wrist drapes down over the switch area. If i pull back and to the left, it can still sometimes hit the toggle switch. There 's a gap between the joystick and the armrest but midway up my forearm to my elbow rests on the arm pad at nearly the same height as the joystick.
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Re: First project chair

Postby Burgerman » 05 Feb 2016, 17:59

You really cant drive like that. At least not properly. Especially if your chair is programmed to actually respond.

You NEED the stability of your hand on the side, so that the joystick can be moved and controlled to mm perfect positioning regardless of bumps or vibration.

If you program your chair with my settings and drive like that you will end up in a door frame or off a curb...

I am used to flying these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5FqYiZb_5s
And these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X6HEkyHNsQ

I need mm perfect accuracy.
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Re: First project chair

Postby expresso » 08 Feb 2016, 01:10

how is the chair coming along ? looks nice -
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Re: First project chair

Postby Burgerman » 08 Feb 2016, 01:13

Its the same as yours?

I dont think we have those here.
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Re: First project chair

Postby expresso » 08 Feb 2016, 02:17

yes i believe its the same model

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Re: First project chair

Postby ex-Gooserider » 12 Feb 2016, 05:41

Agreed, great way to have the girlfriend (or boyfriend if you tilt that way) grab other 'Joysticks', ;) but lousy technique on a chair.... Assuming normal hand function, the finger tip on the tip of the stick or two fingers gives much better control.... Also it helps to get rid of the big knob and use something smaller, or even just the metal shaft of the joystick....

playafly187 wrote:It's funny that you mention the grip as I've always thought people who drove with just two fingers like that simply didn't know how to drive it correctly (that's how all of my walking friends grip it when they need to move the chair with me out of it). Maybe after all these years, I'm the one that's wrong heh

Image

I've always gripped the joystick like this, controlling it more with wrist movement than individual finger movement. To me, this feels much more stable and in control. Also, you can see how my wrist drapes down over the switch area. If i pull back and to the left, it can still sometimes hit the toggle switch. There 's a gap between the joystick and the armrest but midway up my forearm to my elbow rests on the arm pad at nearly the same height as the joystick.


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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 17 Mar 2016, 19:26

Here are a couple of pictures of the chair thus far, mainly showing the lift on the anti-tippers.

Image

Image

I plan to hack off the long end of the bolt and paint all the hardware black to match. Having the tippers constantly drag the ground was pretty annoying.

I'm still searching for color-matching seat frame rails. I talked to Sunrise and they said a new set would run a couple hundred bucks. I'm hoping a set will crop up on eBay sometime for a bit less but no luck thus far.
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Re: First project chair

Postby Burgerman » 17 Mar 2016, 19:36

The danger of that tie down bolt position is grounding over top of ramps, curbs as you leave or climb. Thats why mine is between the drive wheels. Be careful as you go off a curb!

Very old chair but same position of tie down: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/curb.mp4

Imagine what yours will do.

Anti tips are just over 3 inches high, bolt is 2 inches, tyres are 3.5 tall sidewall rear, 3 inch sidewall front, so do this small curb with ease.
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Re: First project chair

Postby expresso » 17 Mar 2016, 19:41

Very nice - Chair looking great - funny how i have the same chair - and always when i see it from others looks cool - glad you got them off the ground - that would drive me crazy - mines had to be fixed for that also when i got mines new -
but its off the ground enough so left it alone - i think yours are a big higher off the ground - good for wheelies -

if you cant find the part you want in black etc, - maybe you can paint it ?
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Re: First project chair

Postby expresso » 17 Mar 2016, 21:10

this is what i had motion concepts do to make my tippers stay off the ground - i just dont remember if they added the STAR part or the RED ARROW part - and it worked to my surprise - i can change out the wheels to the 3 inch model to make mines even further off the ground - but i found this solution to work fine enough - so i left it alone -

what happened is - when they added my seating - theres a little motor in the front of the chair on the bottom with wires that control those wheels in the rear when you tilt back etc, - they removed that - etc, - which is fine with me - but by doing so - my tippers hung low touching the ground just enough all the time -

i refused the chair based on that - they needed to fix it - the chair comes from sunrise with the wheels off the ground - i had a picture of the demo i was on with the Sunrise Tech in the picture - so they cant say its not true -

they made that little part to add and problem solved - i should have asked for extra at the time - too late now - i wonder if any washer would have done the same thing - if put in the same spot ?
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Re: First project chair

Postby playafly187 » 18 Mar 2016, 20:51

Image

As luck would have it, I found the exact frame rails I need to match the main frame. I'm not super crazy about the color but at least it will match. Hoping to have them here within a week!
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