BREXIT

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Sully » 09 Jan 2017, 22:29

Greybeard; You make your point concisely and eloquently.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Burgerman » 09 Jan 2017, 22:35

He does. But the EU cant make us do anything. The people voted. And all the elitist liberal lefties and multiculturalist, communistic, superstate lovers STILL cant accept that they are wrong, and the people are the ones with the power. And they do as we ask not the opposite way around. There will be no EU or Euro in a few years anyway.

The best case scenario I for see for the UK will be some sort of middle ground. That way you can suffer with your decision and be made an example for the rest of the EU.


We voted OUT! Not one foot out...
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Lord Chatterley » 10 Jan 2017, 10:05

F3Head wrote:Were only in January 2017, but I suspect the EU will have you vote again on this topic once again. It's happened before to Ireland who rejected the Maastricht Treaty ( so many treaties and do overs its hard to keep up with) once before and had to vote again until they got it right. Unfortunately for citizens who voted to leave the EU, they are sadly considered to be "legacy" citizens. In time this opposition will fail by the for wayside. After all, it was a reasonably close vote to begin with. I believe the meeting of the minds will be meeting in Davo's shortly to determine your fate. That is if Germany can be convinced to pay for the whole thing. The best case scenario I for see for the UK will be some sort of middle ground. That way you can suffer with your decision and be made an example for the rest of the EU. The good news is Barack Obama will be available shortly to help you with your decisions. He and the recently reenergized Tony Blair are just waiting in the wings…

F3HEAD


Brits are different.

UK politicians would be committing electoral suicide and they know it because the remain vote is split into three parties whereas Brexit voters would all vote UKIP.
They would earn a landslide.
Plus it is increasingly obvious that the doom and gloom scenario was a lie - the UK has the fastest growing economy in the world and more people support Brexit than ever.
Remain are as discredited as Tony Blair - he can barely show his face in public without triggering mass protests.
It is over for us - let's hope the French deliver the coup de grace.

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Burgerman » 10 Jan 2017, 10:56

And the german AfD...
And then the dutch!
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Lord Chatterley » 10 Jan 2017, 16:30

I hope so!

brexit2.jpg


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Re: BREXIT

Postby Sully » 10 Jan 2017, 21:02

Unfortunately, for you GB does not have a constitutional democracy. Your so called representatives can literally thumb their nose's at you. Are you going to revolt? Not flipping likely. Sure we have a paper tiger, but you don't have the paper! Your voters have placed and past leadership have you into a position of submission.

You literally have multiple scraps of note paper with some scattered thoughts on how your government is designed. No one, "general blueprint" (a Constitution) from which the legal structure of your Government is built.

Those scraps can be eliminated in a heartbeat, as those the preceded them, and pasted to the roll of history's toilet paper. There is much precedent for this in your History.

It's all going to be very interesting. Good Luck !!!!
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Burgerman » 10 Jan 2017, 21:14

So can yours. It can be abandoned or just 'ammended'. So far ours has also stood the test of time, and the US is a newborn. Relatively speaking. Just sort of made up on the spot quite recently. So we will see too. Trump should be interesting too!
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Sully » 10 Jan 2017, 22:29

YES I figured in this comment; Amending the Constitution, if you follow the blue print (The Constitution) the path is time consuming. fraught with pit falls. a 2/3 vote of all Congress both Senators and Representatives, then a vote of all 50 states and 3/4 of those individual states must approve the Constitutional Amendment one step must follow the other. Necessarily complicated and time consuming !

Do you think that one man like a Donald Trumplethinskin can circumvent and convince a Nation whose population did not overwhelmingly vote to place this man in our top Administrative position to unilaterally delete our entire National Constitution ? Would that; or could that. start an armed revolt against a usurper? "I" was willing to subject myself many times by oath "to defend the Constitution, and when I resigned my legal positions, to my knowledge I was not relieved of that responsibility; ("to defend the Constitution and laws of the United States, of America"). "I" doubt "I" am alone !

It was this blueprint that placed Trumplethinskin in office, do you think he would discard it after this accomplishment? That alone would de-legitimize his Presidency.

Now let us say a bit of us "Johnny come latelies" American colonists The Constitution in effect in 1785.

When voting rights for "most British Home Owners" did not appear in Britain until 1884 almost 100 years after the US --oops ! And that was due to British citizen revolts. Let's look a tad further African British Citizens and Indian British subjects did not have the vote until 1985 yes, after another 100 years.

You still have "a" House of Lords which seems to have the power to change a House of Commons majority vote from yea to nay, and nay to yea. There is NO blueprint for the structure of your government, However, it appears the rest of Europe has more to say about what occurs in British government than y'all do. "That is a problem"!!! "Correct me" if "I" am wrong!
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Burgerman » 10 Jan 2017, 23:42

Not for long.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Lord Chatterley » 13 Jan 2017, 01:22

Sully wrote:YES I figured in this comment; Amending the Constitution, if you follow the blue print (The Constitution) the path is time consuming. fraught with pit falls. a 2/3 vote of all Congress both Senators and Representatives, then a vote of all 50 states and 3/4 of those individual states must approve the Constitutional Amendment one step must follow the other. Necessarily complicated and time consuming !

Do you think that one man like a Donald Trumplethinskin can circumvent and convince a Nation whose population did not overwhelmingly vote to place this man in our top Administrative position to unilaterally delete our entire National Constitution ? Would that; or could that. start an armed revolt against a usurper? "I" was willing to subject myself many times by oath "to defend the Constitution, and when I resigned my legal positions, to my knowledge I was not relieved of that responsibility; ("to defend the Constitution and laws of the United States, of America"). "I" doubt "I" am alone !

It was this blueprint that placed Trumplethinskin in office, do you think he would discard it after this accomplishment? That alone would de-legitimize his Presidency.

Now let us say a bit of us "Johnny come latelies" American colonists The Constitution in effect in 1785.

When voting rights for "most British Home Owners" did not appear in Britain until 1884 almost 100 years after the US --oops ! And that was due to British citizen revolts. Let's look a tad further African British Citizens and Indian British subjects did not have the vote until 1985 yes, after another 100 years.

You still have "a" House of Lords which seems to have the power to change a House of Commons majority vote from yea to nay, and nay to yea. There is NO blueprint for the structure of your government, However, it appears the rest of Europe has more to say about what occurs in British government than y'all do. "That is a problem"!!! "Correct me" if "I" am wrong!


You are mistaken - for example, the US has never had free trade within its own borders let alone overseas. How does that constitute a protection of individual rights?
Can Trump delete the Constitution? He doesn't need to - it's already been gutted.

As for the franchise - again, you are mistaken but that's hardly a significant issue in any case - freedom is not in any way about who gets the vote: it is what do they get to vote FOR.
The Bill of Rights was supposed to protect against democratic impulses but does it?

"Bills of Rights do not actually maintain freedom. To put it crudely, if the civic order is dominated by
liberal mores and ideas then a Bill of Rights isn’t necessary. If it is not then a Bill of Rights won’t help
you. The Bill of Rights advocates basically suffer from a form of social reification. The Bill of Rights is
simply a document, it has no reality except as a piece of paper outside of the ideas and behaviour of
individuals. It was not the paper “checks and balances” of the American Constitution which maintained
American freedom, it was the “invisible,” but actually more real ones manifest in the ideas and actions of
millions of Americans. The fact that people would rather go hungry than accept state welfare, that
individuals simply would not put up with the sorts of interventionism now accepted as commonplace by
contemporary Americans—this is the real power of ideas as social forces. It is the power of the social
order, of civic society, not scraps of paper, that limited the American state. . . .
American political and constitutional history offers ample evidence for the case against a Bill of Rights.
When liberal hegemony was lost in America (from the turn of the century) and the social mores and
predominant ideas became more collectivist and statist, then the American Constitution and the Bill of
Rights simply did not serve as a bulwark of freedom. . . .
It might be plausibly argued that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights slowed down the governmental
manifestation of collectivism in America, but I doubt if it could be shown that this was of any great
magnitude. Although it might also be argued that collectivism and statism had to adopt certain judicial
disguises, to dress themselves in constitutional terms, this was no great problem for them. . . .
Liberalism and libertarianism need to look elsewhere for the means by which the aggressive use of force
is minimised and individual rights respected. Those means, in my view, lie in the strengthening of what we
might term “social power” and the whole moral and psychological structure of society, and by what
Proudhon called “the dissolution of government in the economic organism.”

http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/polin/polin148.pdf

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Sully » 13 Jan 2017, 17:34

LC I think you are misguided. Libertarian Candidates have never gained a foot hold in the USA. You are also quite mistaken that the "Bill of Rights" of our Constitution has become obsolete. It is the guide used by many Nations and has world wide influence in formulating many Democracies.

Now it is true any of the written words can be ignored, by a Demagogue or belligerent want to be Dictator, but that would be at their risk, most Nations who have done this have failed and been replaced. Honesty and equality in government creates longevity of any government. However, often these traits are mocked, do work.

LC you use words like "interventionism" The common laws of Great Britain are far more interventionist than any such laws in the USA. So much so, that many Americans "think" we have gone too far with the give away, and perhaps we have. These are the very things you Brits are revolting against.

The opinion you cut and pasted, is also in my opinion misguided. Fascist like propaganda, full of twisted half truths.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Lord Chatterley » 14 Jan 2017, 06:10

Sully wrote:LC I think you are misguided. Libertarian Candidates have never gained a foot hold in the USA. You are also quite mistaken that the "Bill of Rights" of our Constitution has become obsolete. It is the guide used by many Nations and has world wide influence in formulating many Democracies.

Now it is true any of the written words can be ignored, by a Demagogue or belligerent want to be Dictator, but that would be at their risk, most Nations who have done this have failed and been replaced. Honesty and equality in government creates longevity of any government. However, often these traits are mocked, do work.

LC you use words like "interventionism" The common laws of Great Britain are far more interventionist than any such laws in the USA. So much so, that many Americans "think" we have gone too far with the give away, and perhaps we have. These are the very things you Brits are revolting against.

The opinion you cut and pasted, is also in my opinion misguided. Fascist like propaganda, full of twisted half truths.


I said your written constitution was the basis of many European states prior to WW2 but the only European state not succumb to totalitarianism was the only European state without a written constitution.

Give me an example of a half-truth by Chris Tame that wasn't previously uttered by Tom Paine or mentioned in the Federalist Papers?

By the way, how is the First Amendment getting along lately?

Has it protected DJ's who have used a naughty word on air or made an Islamophobic joke, or anyone who has made an Islamophobic movie, or is a climate change denier, or who has published a pro-American history book?

How's civil forfeiture getting along, or prohibition, or land seizure, or income tax, or ID cards, or waterboarding, or plea bargaining, or general warrants?

Do tell, because I would love to hear how those magic words are going to work when and if we get one - especially when you have had a President who doesn't know what the meaning word is is, let alone a constitution.

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Sully » 14 Jan 2017, 18:54

Actually the First Amendment while always under attack is doing quite well. The Federalist Papers are not the Constitution and Thomas Paine while his words are influential are not those of the Constitution, or Court approved Law.

Sure there are politicians who would often like to avoid parts of the Constitution it is pretty enduring and pesky.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Lord Chatterley » 03 Feb 2017, 04:06

Thomas Paine said a country's constitution was, ultimately, its people - and he was right.

How much right to free speech did Trump get exercise in Chicago? About the same as Milo in Berkeley - ZERO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=025HRyYRgFs

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Lord Chatterley » 04 Feb 2017, 01:11

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Sully » 05 Feb 2017, 20:49

Since you have no idea of what a National Constitution is, it becomes a life long teaching chore to teach you. You will not be held for trial by state courts for speaking your mind. Bad language over the airways violates the licensing of the company using the public airways, employment by such companies comes with the contractual agreement that you will not violate the conditions of that license. So Constitutionally you can say what you want, but that speech may have civil or personal consequences.

Every right is contested every day somewhere in the US. Just as it is in your country. There are always those who stretch, twist, or do what ever they can do to get away with what ever nefarious deed the think will profit themselves. A constitution is like the lock on your door, it only keeps the honest people, honest. It interferes with the dishonest, but does not stop them. It takes the resolution of the majority of the Nation in question, to operate within its confines. Specifically the people in government from top to bottom.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Lord Chatterley » 05 Feb 2017, 21:54

Sully wrote:Since you have no idea of what a National Constitution is, it becomes a life long teaching chore to teach you. You will not be held for trial by state courts for speaking your mind. Bad language over the airways violates the licensing of the company using the public airways, employment by such companies comes with the contractual agreement that you will not violate the conditions of that license. So Constitutionally you can say what you want, but that speech may have civil or personal consequences.

Every right is contested every day somewhere in the US. Just as it is in your country. There are always those who stretch, twist, or do what ever they can do to get away with what ever nefarious deed the think will profit themselves. A constitution is like the lock on your door, it only keeps the honest people, honest. It interferes with the dishonest, but does not stop them. It takes the resolution of the majority of the Nation in question, to operate within its confines. Specifically the people in government from top to bottom.


I know that you persist in conflating two entirely different ideas - state powers and state rights, for example. That is because you have no idea what a right is or where they come from.

The problem with that is this - if you not very careful you end up congratulating yourself - as Chris Tame points out - for a right written on paper whose substance is either amended out of existence or adopted and applied in such an absurd and illogical manner that you never get to experience any actual rights in real life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HriBHHWYYU

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Lord Chatterley » 10 Feb 2017, 16:59

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Burgerman » 18 Feb 2017, 11:46

A year on and we are still being told that the vote leave people were told a lie and we didn't know it meant coming out of the single market, that it may hurt the economy, and for a decade there would be a mess etc. And that we were all misinformed, lied to, etc.

E.g. T. Blairs recent proposed new referendum (and maybe another dozen till it goes his way), because the losing side still cannot accept they lost!

Theres no soft/part/partial BREXIT. And if there is thats NOT what we voted for.
Theres just Brexit, where you leave the golf club, stop paying membership, get your coat and go home.

Or theres some imagined ridiculous kind of "half/ soft/part Brexit. And god knows how the hell thats supposed to work! You leave the club and don't obey the rules, pay no membership, but still want access to the bar and the green and the little battery cars etc. Thats both not possible and its NOT WHAT WE VOTED FOR! It is however embarrassing for the UK that some whiners are even proposing it.

Well we were in fact very WELL informed. Since the government sent out a biased pro EU propaganda form, to every single last household (using our tax money illegally) telling us EXACTLY THIS in detail and explained what it all meant before the vote!!!

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BREXIT.pdf
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Lord Chatterley » 01 Apr 2017, 19:51

Pat Condell on Brexit and the anti-Trumpeteers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdG57lgHFaA

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Burgerman » 01 Apr 2017, 21:33

110% my views.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Gnomatic » 01 Apr 2017, 22:49

I'm on the other side of the pond. I've seen this guy's vid's before and agree with him on most things.

However, here in the states, it's pretty easy not being happy with a disgrace like Trump as POTUS. I understand the political wave he rode to win the office, but he's still a buffoon regardless. And he did not win a majority of the vote. BREXIT did.

The EU is/was structurally flawed from its inception.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Burgerman » 01 Apr 2017, 23:04

Well the BBC and most media/politicians/hosts/everything is still pushing the same old pro immigration, pro EU, pro multiculturalism, pro freedom of religion/gay/lesbian/black/muslim/everyone equal bullshit here. Everything to do with brexit is framed in a negative way. Every question/every statement/every news article. Its like: We know we have to do it, but its all a terrible mistake. Makes me sick. I have applied for planning permission to install a large Union Jack flag/pole in my garden.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Sully » 03 Apr 2017, 17:33

Gnomatic; I agree with the premise that the EU is/was flawed from the beginning. There was a consensus the Europeans wanted some sort of strength of unity marriage of the individual Nation/States not only for trade basis but for each their individual security on a united joint military basis. And a universal monetary system. The problem was there was no consensus exactly how to accomplish all this to a mutual satisfaction of all the States.

It is always simple to create disunity in a small Nation/State, it is just harder to do it to a large state, but not impossible. In any mutual agreement to create a common Union/ the agreement has to come first. When the legal and physical structure has been agreed upon by a vote of each member nation/state, by their constituents, only then can this union become one United European State! This was never done, there is a document laid out BUT this document was never agreed upon by the Nation States. Great Britain never acceded to the new money to be used by believe united European Nation, another huge stumbling block to building one Unified Nation. They all pretty much just ignored it with no serious agreement. (Read the Preamble to the US Constitution) The whole way the EU is structured is/was a cluster F, There are a lot of great idea's in the proposed EU Constitution.

I once was a part of a committee writing a constitution of aa SIMPLE Not for Profit Fishing club. There were about 12 members chosen to accomplish this task, everyone trying to make a great club that charged some pretty reasonable dues ($25) Per Year. WE agreed to do this without remuneration, being a State wide Club the meetings were located far from many of this dozen people's homes, it was pretty hard to get there for some. This process took a very long time almost a year, with 2 a month meetings. NOW THIS WAS JUST A FISHING CLUB !!!! Just think what it takes to create a mutually agreeable document for multiple Nations !!!! It is just so complex. BUT this must be the first step, it cannot be set aside,or you get what Europe has now. Immigrant refugee's running about everywhere.

Unfortunately it is somewhat human nature that we change our surroundings to what we are accustomed. We move about our planet seeking a better situation than we presently have, Refugees are even more desperate to do this it seems. The USA is not immune to such things. Larger cities have a convergence of these ethnic neighborhoods. and then an eventual natural scattering of these enclaves.

Laws that must comply with a Common agreed upon Constitution help long term with some oppressive customs and non-constitutionally compliant laws/rules brought with new immigrants or refugees are more easily defeated with an agreed upon common Constitution, than without. One common referee (Supreme Court) with good Constitutional guide lines is the only way to resolve such issues. This is quite time consuming, nothing happens legally with any real speed.
==============================================================

LC you use some of the constitutional half assed Constitutions of smaller nations which were circumvented by some politicians. Yes the majorities Germany in the 1930 's made Hitler and his group of followers was permitted unbridled leadership because of the populace let that happen. You're right when you quote "Thomas Paine when he said a country's constitution was, ultimately, its people - and he was right". The protective laws only lend legitimacy to the protest of what are illegally set rules. They cannot physically protect you when an unfriendly government or official retaliates against a person.

HOWEVER, "How much right to free speech did Trump get exercise in Chicago? About the same as Milo in Berkeley - ZERO". >>> There is/was no government intervention in Candidate's rally's He spoke as he wished, and still does. He was not jailed for speaking what little of his mind he had. His audience had the same rights, but Candidate Trump's associates shushed them promptly. In fact Candidate Trump could have been charged with inciting a riot by announcing from the podium to request his friendly crowd cause bodily harm to his detractor's. So Candidate Trump was not without any fault in Chicago, but was this a constitutional violation??? NO NO NO.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Burgerman » 03 Apr 2017, 17:39

Gnomatic; I agree with the premise that the EU is/was flawed from the beginning. There was a consensus the Europeans wanted some sort of strength of unity marriage of the individual Nation/States not only for trade basis but for each their individual security on a united joint military basis. And a universal monetary system. The problem was there was no consensus exactly how to accomplish all this to a mutual satisfaction of all the States.



No it was sold to all the member states in the beginning as a free trade area. Called the EEC for European Economic Community. But all the communistic/leftist/liberal/elitist/political all knew damned well that they really wanted to united states of Europe. So they (the non elected bureaucrats) that nobody has heard of, gradually crept in more and more eu "power' and centralization to achieve this goal. Non of the countries people wanted this. Many of the governments didn't want it either... But bit by bit, treaty after treaty, vote after ignored vote, we got it anyway. The result of which is the backlash we have today.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Sully » 05 Apr 2017, 22:04

John this was big conversation in the very late 1959" and early 1960's back then the drift of every conversation was a "United States of Europe" However, the French did put the kibosh on this when they chose to reelect De Gaulle President again. So it is entirely your prerogative as a European Nation to revolt from this disorganized structure. Now since there is no coordinated effort of Nations, refugee's just as occurred after WW2 --in 1945/6 it took many years to calm that down. Now the river of humanity is moving again. Where is the organization for stopping or rectifying this flow going to come from? Sure the tide has slowed, but will that keep? Or is it simply temporary? Men and women, teens and adults will flee the slaughter as best they can, that is just a natural thing, no one will willingly stay within those dangerous area.

Great Britain has some very natural barriers for its borders, most of the Nation States Europe does not. The will quietly struggle with this refugee problem for many years. So will GB but not with such difficulty. That is only one but not the only one of the problems an acceptable Union can help, that's gone.

The EU was done wrong, personal greed and power killed it.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Burgerman » 05 Apr 2017, 22:33

Refugees, genuine ones, are quite few, and will or should go back when safe. What we actually get in, is millions of fighting age men, economic migrants, with a load of extreme Muslims and other problem people from poor parts of africa etc instead. Wher life is cheap, rules are ignored, rape, murder, theft, and living in a mud hut or worse is common. They all come here to see what they can get for free. And the trouble follows them. Mostly ignorant, violent, ungrateful low life morons. No women, old, kids, disabled visible. If the biased media see one they latch onto it to try and show that they are genuine. Its bullshit!
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Sully » 06 Apr 2017, 19:37

I myself never feared being born a male child, teen, and grown man. But just consider being a male in many of those countries just as you should be starting to understand life and getting an education, many of these people are forced to become a part of some military that has no true meaning for them. There is actually no right or wrong side. It is all wrong. Young men 13 yrs+ old are considered to be of fighting age. What is to come of them?

I do think I would fear to be a half grown kid lose my family and the anchors of my young life to be cast out of all I might have known. These (orphaned????) kids are pretty aimless, without some direction where do they go? I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWERS ARE !! I really don't know all the questions! If in fact there are some answers; (there may not be any)

I seriously don't disagree with most of your philosophies, there is more than a simple modicum of truth and reason to them. To have viable opinions, we all must have solutions for the negative ones. There is always more than one side to every story or problem. NO ONE can turn the calendar back, what is -- is.

Both of our Nations have 18th century people scurrying around our 21st century countries. I discussed the males of this society, what of the young females? Girls not yet to the age of puberty are considered wed able by these cro magnon thinking tribes.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Gnomatic » 10 Apr 2017, 18:12

Looks like you Brits done pissed off the Huns again ....

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3301653/h ... -new-poll/
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Burgerman » 10 Apr 2017, 20:10

Well its not too important what the people think. Thee big tool/white goods/car/other industries will want a friendly exit and good trade deal. The realities of their economy say this has to be true. They cannot afford to lose the huge UK market for their stuff. Our shops are full of German gear, cars, etc.

They sell us one hell of a lot more stuff than the opposite way around. And nothing stops us buying Australian, US, Korean, Japanese, or even french, Italian cars if they don't want to sell theirs! Their loss, not ours. I personally would leave today, no deal at all. Within 24 hours there would be a huge que of countries and companies wanting to continue selling their stuff to us! Bring it on. These politicians haven't a clue how to do a deal. They need to be strong, not weak. Offer equal trade, and if that doesn't suit them, walk, closed the drawbridge.

The Germans and the french have elections soon... Then we will see if these europhiles have the population on their side, or if merkel gets the boot, and the french vote for marine le pen. And goodby to the EU. The germans are worried that the UK money is gone. They cant fund or subsidize the EU alone!
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