Awake & Aware

[sacharlie]

https://chomsky.info

[Burgerman]

An over educated over complex socialist, liberal, leftist idealist philosophy nut. So? Theres plenty of them in the world.

I also note, again, that you didn't reply to any of my simple questions in the other thread. Because you cant!

[sacharlie]

I don't reply to endless questions that most republicans ask but are never satisfied with the answer. You as most republicans resort to labels and names when the plan truth, from the person responding, disputes your claim. Big banks, multinational corporations, and the lobby industry should be allowed to run amuck in your world you call capitalism. You believe these people are god's in your world, I know better.Anyone that dares to expose them or the system they run you label at best a socialist and at b worst a communist. So you asking me and I answering you is a futile tick of the clock.

[motoman]

Even myself, being a registered independent can realize that Noam Chomsky is a complete radical moron

[Burgerman]

So then. As we said.

Name the communist/socialist country that performs well. All you do is say that you dont like that the rich have more than you.

Well nobody cares. Because the alternative is way, way worse. It makes everyone poor. What you NEVER do is explain clearly how your socialist ideas will make the country wealthier. Or even why it doesent make it poor fast! (It always does)

? Waiting.

[Burgerman]

Or this. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7019

Every time you transfer the rewards of development, invention, research, business to those that didn't earn it you cut your own throat by making the pie shrink. Instead of grow. Your socialist ideas never can work as countless examples show.

[sacharlie]

Wealth distribution!
It all went exponential with the '07/'08 corrupt banking plunder.
Don't believe me.
Look up the richest 1% in the world. The 8 richest in the world.

[Burgerman]

Sadly you STILL think theres a pie. And having a rich 1 percent or whatever makes you poorer!

Clueless.

A countries wealth is created or destroyed. The "pie" you seem to think you are sharing does not exist.

And again and again, you failed to give me an example of a wealth sharing or if you prefer socialist/communist country that you would rather live in? One example is plenty!

Or explained how socialism creates more wealth? Its trivial to explain why it doesn't! And theres literally hundreds of examples to prove the point. So, where are these marvelous places?

[motoman]

So, where are these marvelous places?

Venezuela for one.......Oh wait, bad example

[Burgerman]

Its better than north korea! http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/ ... 64x644.jpg
And they are starving and/or poor in every socialist country.

Still going strong (I mean surviving just about): China, but now with free trade CAPITALIST economy...
Cuba... Poor, many starving, 40 year old cars, empty shops.
Laos.
Vietnam.
And bringing up the rear, Venezuela.

All the other 60 to 80 socialist countries, no longer are. They needed to eat.

The main difference between capitalism and socialism is this: Capitalism works.

[sacharlie]

Are you saying capitalism cannot exist without a plutocracy?

[Sully]

Total unrestrained Capitalism is toxic perhaps more so than Total Socialism
You combine Socialism with totalitarianism and Communism however, not the discussion.

I believe there is a safe mix of Capitalism and Socialism that can be safely achieved a balance of that fierce human independence and the social needs of the Nation. Of what purpose is a nation without people? Do you propose that the nations people should be or are existing at the will of a bank or a national leader? Perhaps better put another way; Is money your god (capitalism) or is power over the national population, the end goal,(Communism) neither option is good for anyone? I am not given to the fantasy that there is any perfect form of government. We are so a different people, all so very different desires, ideal's, and idea's.

[Burgerman]

Plutocracy? Dont care in any way. They are not making ME or YOU poorer! Thers no pie remember! And they pay more tax than you or I do. If they are super rich so what?

Ideal society is of course a mix.
A mix of as free a capitalist ECONOMY as humanly possible. That makes the country rich enough to have:
A SOCIAL CARE system, possibly including health, schools, roads, military etc. For the governments to decide. But the FREE UNRESTRICTED CAPITALIST ECONOMY is the bit that should be left alone as it earns the money to pay for the expensive anchor that is socialist part. (E.g your moronic socialist party upped corporation tax to 29 percent! That is why you have no jobs, and low incomes, low or slow growth, bad balance of payments, etc. You did the perfect job of chasing any existing business away to other countries. Or persuaded them its not worth building a bigger new factory or expanding at all. Whats the point if you remove the incentives? Why take the risk. Crazy. So initially you get more tax revenue. And later on you are screwed big time. The socialists way.

After all, the Chinese watched Hong Kong run by the British do exactly that and grow rich. Its got plenty of your "plutocrats" too. But even the poor can now eat and drink clean water and get medical treatment or find a JOB! While china itself grew ever poorer. So now they are a communist socialist country regarding care, medical, etc, but changed over ideology, with a very free capitalist economy with low taxation of the rich or of companies with little regulation. It started with an experiment. A free trade low taxation area called Shenzen. Which took off and is now the countries biggest capital growth area by miles. That has hugely rich plutocrats now, but so what! It hasn't made anyone poorer! Quite the opposite. It has gone from the poorest country where they were eating roadkill and dead babies for protein and dead by 35 to the 2nd richest country in 40 years. Why do you keep banging on about a few plutocrats? You live in the richest country in the world. So who gives a crap?

Same experiment played out all over the planet.
socialist East/capitalist west germany (poor / rich)
North/South korea (poor/rich)
East and west europe. Same result.
And the same thing every time.

The more that you try to tax the rich, the more you put the brake on wealth creation, growth of business, and therefore, jobs, tax revenues, etc . Its not that hard to understand surely!

[sacharlie]

Plutocracy? Dont care in any way. They are not making ME or YOU poorer! Thers no pie remember! And they pay more tax than you or I do. If they are super rich so what?

Please get this. I do not begrudge anyone of their wealth as long as it is not from hook or crook.

Now get this, you say there is no pie but you apply a pie chart with your constant rant "they pay more tax than you". Likewise I pay more tax than many. My marginal tax rate is larger than many of the Plutoracy because of income classifications and loopholes. If you were to throw out your pie chart when it comes to taxes then we would have very little disagrement.

[Burgerman]

My marginal tax rate

Is totally irrelevant. The RATE doesn't matter, Even if they paid 0.01% they would still pay shit loads more tax than you ever could. They are propping you up! You cannot see that. They are also bringing IN wealth, running companies that employ the likes of you, so that the government gets more tax, and you get the benefit of a job.

Do you think steve gates or bill jobs dont employ thousands, directly, indirectly, and collect billions in taxes for the government in corporation tax, employment tax, tax from employees pay, and 101 other sources? Not to mention the tax that their suppliers, retailers, music industry, and so on pay. Plus the fact that the PC or Apple-mac allows every business to run more efficiently and produce and sell more goods? The pie got massive! Its IRRELEVANT how much they personally pay. Who gives a shit! The real benefits are massive. But they wouldn't bother to do any of this if the rewards are not worth the trouble. Which is why you cant buy a Russian or north korean, or ipad, PC, car, sofa, kitchen, plane, or anything else thats worth having. And why the whole eastern block, east germany, and every country that tries to reduce the gap went bust.

Why cant you understand that the whole western development, jobs, growth, DEPENDS on the gap between the rich and the poor. It drives the businesses, every business, to grow, develop, research, sell, open bigger factories, etc. And YOU benefit by getting to live in a society you cannot otherwise afford complete with cheap mass produced superior products, and living conditions.

[Burgerman]

And. You can easily produce a graph (a pie graph?) to show how anything KNOWN can be split up, taxed, or whatever. But when it comes to the amount of GDP and internal country wealth generated, there is no pie at least not one of constant size. It can grow or shrink fast depending on how much you remove incentive by taxing the rich/or the companies. Redistribution of wealth ALWAYS reduces the pie. And makes everyone poorer once markets change over time including the already poor... So taxing the rich has the opposite affect to what you wanted to achieve.

Bill gates made the pie massively bigger when he invented windows, as all the businesses became more productive. Less man hours, less waste, better design, faster communication. greater standardization. The steam engine did the same. It started the industrial revolution. All about profit! If there was nothing in it for them, why bother? And it made all of us richer. But often the inventor is made very rich. But sometimes others get rich on the BACK of this later on. Same thing happens with every commercial development. Improvement in production, or robot built to do something faster/better/cheaper.

The pie grew enormously when Henry ford invented the production line. HE made more money, but also made cars affordable for the masses. Your dollar now went further! Or When swan invented the light bulb. So more work hours, less time wasted, etc. The PIE GETS BIGGER yet again if you dont inhibit it. Not to mention personal benefit to you. The promise of wealth is what drives it all. Simple things do it. The extra profit from selling more cars because they do more MPG with better design built by robots, and so saves consumers cash. To spend elsewhere like food/rent/porn. Every incremental improvement increases the pie or your standard of living. And it doesn't require to sell overseas to do it, but that too helps your GDP! So you win twice.

Tax companies or individual entrepreneurs or existing small business more, and you reduce the personal advantage to build that bigger lithium battery factory. Why take the risks, why bother with the risk, loans, etc if the reward is no longer worth it? Pie stagnates, shrinks, as your overseas competitors DO make the better cheaper lithium battery. But their pie gets bigger... Hello china!

[Burgerman]

Still waiting for your successful socialist (redistribution of wealth) country? The one that has a better standard of living than the capitalist one you are in now?

[sacharlie]

I understand your approach. You want a pie chart to display total tax paid by groups to argue your gods of Plutocracy pay in total more than another. That's as it should be; but in reality their total taxes are too little because of income classifications, exclusions and exemptions which decrease their tax rate below the working middle class rate.
Looking at a pie chart of income distribution only makes sense that the more income the more tax; but it is not even close to apples for apples. It is plums to lemons.
My marginal tax rate means something to me when I have to subsidize the lower tax rate of the plutocracy. Trickle down economics is voodoo inflcted upon the populace. It is not sustainable.


I don't understand your thinking even though you pay no income tax.



Nuff said on the matter.

[Burgerman]

I note you didnt give an example again.

I understand your approach.

Its not "my approach". Its what the facts and the maths and all the working out shows. And what the reality and all the real world examples show. Theres no opinion, room for error, or anything else here!

You want a pie chart to display total tax paid by groups to argue your gods of Plutocracy pay in total more than another.

I have no "gods". The (your) plutocracy Ssimply DO pay more tax. Its trivial to show this. LOTS more in most cases.

That's as it should be;

No it should not! Why the hell should these people pay more than you for the education of a child, the emptying of a bin, the social services, etc? Please explain why?

but in reality their total taxes are too little because of income classifications, exclusions and exemptions which decrease their tax rate below the working middle class rate.

And I explained till I am blue in the face, that RATE of tax is a scam that takes MORE from the rich. They would in an ideal world pay the same into society as you do. But if we try that, you cant afford to live in the society that you are in. You NEED them to prop up your feeble tax amount.

Looking at a pie chart of income distribution only makes sense that the more income the more tax; but it is not even close to apples for apples. It is plums to lemons.

Not a clue what this means. Unless you mean that they are paying way more actual tax DOLLARS than you, which is true. They have to, to prop up your meager amount. To allow you to live how you do.

My marginal tax rate means something to me when I have to subsidize the lower tax rate of the plutocracy. Trickle down economics is voodoo inflcted upon the populace. It is not sustainable.

You dont. They pay way more DOLLARS than you ever could. Directly and indirectly. Even ignoring the gains to jobs, and GDP. Trickle down economics is the VERY THING that makes the capitalism work. And socialism fail.

I don't understand your thinking even though you pay no income tax.

Because as I said in the previous post we need CAPITALIST ECONOMICS. And SOCIALIST CARE or BENEFITS SYSTEM. And the CAPITALIST part pays for the Socialist part. And of course I paid into a thing called the national security system. It is designed to cover me in the event I cannot work.

And so. Your example of a shining socialist economy place to live is?

[Sully]

Burgerman Quote; "But the FREE UNRESTRICTED CAPITALIST ECONOMY is the bit that should be left alone as it earns the money to pay for the expensive anchor that is socialist part".

This makes my point. There is a socialist part! It becomes necessary when some of the citizenry cannot do certain things for themselves but it takes a communal fund to make them happen. The Capitalist sector gains from this as well. They have security for their operations, transportation, safe and secure supply of power, water and human waste removal. Some of the things we call taxes are really not taxes at all, they are a sort of insurance premium. Insurance that pays for your and mine (now)
health care and a pension that supplements my other paid for pensions. Some of my previous employments took salary money to pay into some funds to assure my later retirement pension. No single one is phenomenal but the combination becomes almost livable. Do you call that taxation? I don't ! Even though I did pay into a government fund that does exactly the same thing. And that combination makes my living affordable. That we call a tax, but it really is not.

Our National representative government is made up of mostly plutocrats, though the members of that club is not exclusive to just plutocrats.

Most Americans do not begrudge honestly earned wealth, in fact it is something too strive for. I never thought I would retire early, and when I became somewhat disabled I did not quit working, But that work became physically and mentally more challenging. And of course most folks experience and view those experiences very differently.

Paying taxes using dollars or pounds while the ultimate goal is those units of measure the percentage of income is the only practical way of assessing that tax. So YES, if you make more then you pay more. The rate system does have faults, and some of the exclusions allowed are supposed to neutralize those faults. "Not when they exceed the intended purpose of the exclusion".

One would do well to realize that this nation of Plutocrats of the past "CHOSE" to tax themselves to permit this nation to continue to assist our nation's future. Their existence was guaranteed because of the liberties that exist now and as they did then. Those taxes real and imagined have been levied by the very people you seek to protect. However, a person or, persons who truly complains does need to visit a truly communistic nation. NO, you are correct! I cannot NAME a real successful Socialistic Republic. but there are plenty of mongrel like nations, which use a mix, and match form of political philosophy. Your Nation does this and so does ours.

[Burgerman]

Your, and our and all successful rich countries have a mostly capitalistic economic setup, and a social taxation system to cover the things everyone agrees that should be for all.

What people like sacharlie don't understand and all socialists, is that taxing business, taxing high earners means your country soon becomes Venezuela.

[sacharlie]

You want a pie chart to display total tax paid by groups to argue your gods of Plutocracy pay in total more than another.

I have no "gods". The (your) plutocracy Ssimply DO pay more tax. Its trivial to show this. LOTS more in most cases.

LOL
You preach & preach & preach of your gods every chance you get. But you preach nonsense. You preach that there is a group that should pay a smaller portion of their income dollar than another. You preach that the $40mil income of the hedge fund manager should be taxed at 15% while the $500k income of the doctor should be taxed at 35% because $40mil is so much larger than $500k.
The only thing you got right is that $40mil is much more than $500k.

[Burgerman]

You have your fingers in your ears.

Because you are a socialist. Thats the same as clueless when it comes to economics.

I don't care one bit about percentages. I care about the AMOUNT of tax only.

You like percentages because it means you get to live a life you cant afford at the bottom, in a society with all the benefits of that extra tax paid by the rich. You couldn't dream of buying that society with its support systems, roads, military etc if the tax bill was shared equally. Because it would be higher than your wages.

You prefer to take from those with more, to support those with less. Which is whats already happening to a massive degree. And already holding back development, production, business investment, gdp etc.

Your socialist way simply doesn't work. Which is why you still cant tell me of ONE single country that is primarily a socialist economy that you would want to live in. Or that isn't desperately poor. Or thats even functional in any real sense.

[Burgerman]

You preach that the $40mil income of the hedge fund manager should be taxed at 15%

Thats 600,000 THOUSAND

while the $500k income of the doctor should be taxed at 35%

Thats 175,000

So the hedge fund manager has to pay 5 times MORE. And both pay way more than you so you can live how you do.

[sacharlie]

You preach that the $40mil income of the hedge fund manager should be taxed at 15%

Thats 600,000 THOUSAND

while the $500k income of the doctor should be taxed at 35%

Thats 175,000

So the hedge fund manager has to pay 5 times MORE. And both pay way more than you so you can live how you do.

The hedge fund manager has 80x the income of the doctor and only pays 34x the tax that the doctor pays. Say that again, keep repeatin that!

[sacharlie]

I deal in percentages because, unlike you, much more of my income is not from a government handout.

[Burgerman]

It doesn't matter how much you get or earn. I ran several businesses and well used to big incomes. As well as running a business 1st hand and what it takes. And the sheer amount of direct tax, property or business tax, tax you pay for the privileged of employing a person, tax on vehicles, fuel, etc that it stopped me from ever wanting to expand. Whats the point? All the extra risk, work, stress, hours, and the government takes it away to give to those that cannot be bothered. The result is that the country gets less GDP, theres less jobs, and less overall tax collected. Everyone loses.

Hedge fund managers have the potential to be some of the highest paid executives in the financial industry, if they stay competitive and always come out as winners. On the other end of the spectrum, some hedge fund managers do not make nearly as much as the top paid managers, because if they fail at all in their financial endeavors, they will not be paid.

Read more: Hedge Fund Manager http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hed ... z4lJs1uidN
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The principle does not change. And they choose to do this as can you. And they accept the risk. More fail than win.

Still no example of where taking from the top to give to the bottom has made a country anything but poor then?

The hedge fund manager has 80x the income of the doctor and only pays 34x the tax that the doctor pays. Say that again, keep repeatin that!

Why do YOU think that he should pay 1 penny more for a road, or fighter-jet, school than the doctor does? Or that you do? Never mind 34x... The system is rigged to make the rich pay more DOLLARS for the exact same services and society.

Do you think his next beer should cost 34x more than the doctors? Explain why. Because its the same thing exactly.

Answers on a communist postcard please. You want it, because you don't have it.

[sacharlie]

The $40MIL isn't a golden egg he laid all by himself. But for whatever reason you seem to believe he did.
It's the country, the system, the infarstructure that taxes pay for; and after that but above all its the demand from the populace that drives it all.
You cry you were overwhelmed, when in business, so you didn't strive to keep going and become rich. Well there was and always will be someone to take up your slack as long as the demand is there.
You think the $40mil manager is gonna hold his breath, turn blue and only earn $20mil if required to pay the same tax rate as the doctor, really? Well don't worry, someone will take up his $20mil slack as long as the demand is there.
The more you force the middle class to subsidize the tax breaks of the rich the less demand there is for goods and services which is the driving force of any economy.

[Burgerman]

The $40MIL isn't a golden egg he laid all by himself. But for whatever reason you seem to believe he did.

Not relevant how he made it. As long as he did so legally.

It's the country, the system, the infarstructure that taxes pay for;

Correct. You still have not explained why you think those that earn more should pay more DOLLARS for the same infrastructure?

and after that but above all its the demand from the populace that drives it all.

No. Its not. The infrastructure is there for your benefit. And its mostly paid for by business, and those earning way more than you. But mostly NOTHING gets paid for including you, or the infrastructure without the PIE GROWING!

You cry you were overwhelmed, when in business, so you didn't strive to keep going and become rich. Well there was and always will be someone to take up your slack as long as the demand is there.

No TOTALLY wrong. I decided that I would stay small, on purpose because of the way the government taxes anyone to death that tries to earn more, and taxes business even more in a multitude of ways. Why work and risk everything when little reward? I was earning plenty, so since the reward wasn't great enough to risk expansion, why should I bother. So the PIE didn't grow as it would have done... The inevitable result of economic socialism.

The real loser was the country and everyone in it. If I had been taxed less I would have expanded hugely. it would have meant jobs, exports, GDP, and tax from all the extra employees, and vehicles, business rates, etc etc. In other words the socialist practice of taxing those that earn bigger amounts MORE HEAVILY, and taxing business too high, caused a reduction of the potential PIE!

But you do not seem capable of understanding basic economic 101. Which is why you think that people with more should help you out!

You think the $40mil manager is gonna hold his breath, turn blue and only earn $20mil if required to pay the same tax rate as the doctor, really? Well don't worry, someone will take up his $20mil slack as long as the demand is there.

But the demand FALLS. Every time you tax someone more, the incentive, the risk he takes, become less worthwhile. As every single socialist country has found to its cost. Thats why they are all bankrupt!

The more you force the middle class to subsidize the tax breaks of the rich the less demand there is for goods and services which is the driving force of any economy.

Opposite way around. Why? Because there are LOTS of middle class, so the tax they have to make up is very little each. And increasing tax of the 1 percent brings in almost nothing, and that rapidly declines to less than you started with, as they move their operations to more tax friendly countries. Tried and tested over and over.

[expresso]

i am enjoying this discussion - i dont know much of anything with this stuff - what i do know is its Sucks - the whole system sucks - its so inter connected at this point that it can never really be fixed -

you both have good points - A flat Rate on Taxes can never work - there just wont be enough to run the country - i have a very easy simple solution - if i remember correctly - WE DO PRINT MONEY and its just paper anyway

we dont follow the GOLD Standard any more - do we even have Gold ? its all a big scam - - i am on the bottom end of this in terms of money - i need the services i receive - i worked many many years also - now i need my SSDI - my housing - etc, - Homecare -

People focus too much on the lower end and not enough on where is the money ? in the end - if you Cut all these services for the Poor and disabled - and add up all thats saved from that - it will be a huge number i am sure -

now that that Huge number and compare it to other things that Our taxes pay for - i dont know of an example - but military is one - which i agree WE NEED A STRONG Military - but we the Avg. person dont have a clue about where the money is really going -

wheres the money in those suitcases we drop off to other countries - for things we do wrong etc, - or maybe instead of 500 AIR CRAFT CARRies that cost 8 billion each - maybe we can do OK with just 400 of them instead - - dont you think ?

i am just using numbers as an example - and amounts - but you get the idea - Gov. being too Big in general and not holding there own weight -

all i am saying is - it cant work one way or the other fully - we cant tax the rich for ever more and more and more - i get it - but to cut off the what the poor rely on to live and still really in poverty - and think thats going to make it all better - dont think so

the wider the Gap is between rich and poor - the worse the whole country will be - the Middle class are hurting the most - always were - i know some who own buildings and complain all the time - but if its that bad - SELL it -- if its not worth it - Sell it ?? go find a job - do something else etc, -

anyway - i wanted to say something - now i let you two who know more than me - get back to it -