R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 13 May 2022, 21:03

You can't swing a dead cat in here without hearing BM hates Permobil.

I never said I hated them. I was pointing out that your conclusion about the settings at the top of menu (and OBP) and fixed walls to make it impossible to change, only applied to some. And no I have no idea why. Or why on earth they want to or add the mass of confusion that their home made parts cause. I wish I did know. But even they dont apear to be able to figure anything out and just send engineers to swap out parts seemingly at random till it works again.

The only advantage they appear to get from it is to prevent any kind of user programability that actually makes them steer properly and to ensure you have to call out their own "engineers" everytime, for everything. Its a job creation scheme. Everything is proprietry. In house. That includes the reasons for the differences, the firmwares, the programming, and parts.

I would LOVE to be able to help people that have them. But its a back box. That is not my fault! All I can do is advise those with any choice to get something different if they care. And its similar with prides "own" q-logic 2 and 3 stuff.
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 13 May 2022, 22:01

Two M3 ones with ics/gyro. On these the first section is unlocked and can be adjusted. But the bottom section better be ade to match too of you get very unexpected results... Its a black box. You cant even swap settings between two similar chairs. Uploaded to me from this forum. At least one was.

my m3.R-net
(3.88 KiB) Downloaded 1 time


M3.R-net
(4.75 KiB) Downloaded 1 time


THIS is from another M3 and I bought its power module. This is the stock settings that I removed before reprogramming with real R-Net settings for my Q700R. And my Salsa. They use identical settings.
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PM1 NEW PERMOBIL.R-net
(4.79 KiB) Downloaded 1 time
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 13 May 2022, 22:11

Can you take a permobil module and reprogram for a normal chair? Yes very easy.
Can you take a normal 120A power module like the ones on most chairs and reprogram with the permobil settings file? Nope... Worse, you can only do that to a correct firmware version on a prmobil module too. You may or may not be lucky.

I bought 3 power modules. 2 were permobil. The 3 of them accepted the normal settings file from a generic module. But you couldnt reload the permobil setting file to the wrong permobil module...
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby steves1977uk » 13 May 2022, 22:31

I have a couple of Permobil 120A PM's which works with both my CJA's, except one of the joysticks won't work with a generic PM. So I have to match the Permobil branded CJA to one of their PMs, and the HMC one will work with a generic and Permobil PM. PITA though because I thought the Permobil CJA had gone faulty until I paired it with the correct PM! :fencing

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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 13 May 2022, 22:44

CJA?
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby slomobile » 13 May 2022, 22:45

Burgerman wrote:Can you take a normal 120A power module like the ones on most chairs and reprogram with the permobil settings file? Nope... Worse, you can only do that to a correct firmware version on a prmobil module too. You may or may not be lucky.

you couldnt reload the permobil setting file to the wrong permobil module...


This makes me wonder if the rnet file contains a serial number that must match the PM serial number, or if the PMs are actually different. I suspect the PMs are the same hardware except an eeprom, or exactly the same but OEM Rnet PC software is not capable of writing that memory area. Since Wheelchair Builder can write new serial numbers, it might be informative trying to program a generic PM with WB. I'll try that if I can ever get my hands on a dongle.
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby steves1977uk » 13 May 2022, 22:54

CJA?


One of these BM... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265314570010 :thumbup:

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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 13 May 2022, 23:29

Oh. Those connect to the r-net bus and so are meant to work with all r-net systems like any joystick

https://documentation.permobil.com/manu ... 1-UK-0.pdf
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby steves1977uk » 13 May 2022, 23:58

Correct!, except the Permobil versions don't work with Generic PMs as rover tried this on my Dietz chair. The HMC branded one I also have does work on the Dietz chair, so it's Permobil up to their usual tricks. :roll:

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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 14 May 2022, 00:03

I think they make lots of firmware version changes across all thir modules and break thngs. They may well know which serial numbers work nicely together. Who knows they may even do it specifically so we cant diy anything and garantee $$$.
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Scooterman » 14 May 2022, 07:36

Just a quickie, I hope it’s not a dummie :fencing

For a sunrise chair I’d use the sunrise version, yes?

You obviously have to read from controller before being able to alter chair’s parameters, so what difference does it make which software version you use?

:problem:

Could it be that some makes of chairs have non-standard configuration, such as perhaps 4 motors or something?
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 14 May 2022, 08:54

Use Sunrise but version 6.4.

You would just change motor load compensation if 4 motors are used.

The only reason that theres a sunrise version, rather than just use generic is because they use the CxSM module esp programmed to suite the fancy seating on the ERGO seat powerchairs. That cost twice as much...

The generic one will not adjust this. It will do almost everything else fine. Inc all the normal seating options on say my salsa or Q700R. And the same on other chairs.

The outlier is permobil. And then who knows what works.
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Swan T.W. » 14 May 2022, 16:27

steves1977uk wrote:
CJA?


One of these BM... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265314570010 :thumbup:

Steve


Are these still available?
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 14 May 2022, 16:57

Threres one on ebay.
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby steves1977uk » 14 May 2022, 17:01

No idea, since Permobil bought out the HMC International stuff they made. Maybe rover knows more about this?

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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby steves1977uk » 14 May 2022, 17:10

Another... https://www.ebay.com/itm/273771889709 This one would work with a Generic PM.

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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Marcelo » 14 May 2022, 21:40

daveonwheels wrote:i believe you need the pc software AND the oem dongle to do that. but with permobil,they do not want you to enable OBP at all
Thanks.
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Marcelo » 14 May 2022, 21:48

Burgerman wrote:I will give an example of the problem.

Heres a typical permobil settings file. These ludicrous figures are what you will see in the "speeds" setting. And also all you see in OBP. And if you try and set anything different it wont allow it. Other than torque, input smoohing, fast brake rate.

Screenshot, and a permobil file so you can see for yourself. Permobil want it this way because on SOME permobils the ICS needs those settings and the control data it produces passing along to their own ICS thing, with their own home grown gyro, and then you configure the speeds and setting in that new section lower down instead. In the ESP section (that does not appear in your OBP in the joystick.). And even when changed in the Desktop OEM software it doesent behave as expected and so still hard to get it to steer well.

To complicate it further SOME permobils use different hardware or firmware. Where the top speeds settings are the opposite and set super low. These can be changed, but if normal values are used then the thing is very hard to control and too sensitive. So you then need to change the settings in ESP as well to try to tame it or make it work properly.
Thank you all, I've given up on this idea, I don't want to cause a problem in my chair. :thumbup:
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 15 May 2022, 00:03

You can always put it back how it was.

Nothing to lose trying.
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Scooterman » 15 May 2022, 17:06

Burgerman wrote:Use Sunrise but version 6.4.

You would just change motor load compensation if 4 motors are used.

The only reason that theres a sunrise version, rather than just use generic is because they use the CxSM module esp programmed to suite the fancy seating on the ERGO seat powerchairs. That cost twice as much...

The generic one will not adjust this. It will do almost everything else fine. Inc all the normal seating options on say my salsa or Q700R. And the same on other chairs.

The outlier is permobil. And then who knows what works.

Cheers BM I understand now :thumbup:

You know what I'm going to ask now! :oops:

Have you got a link to a download for Sunrise version 4.0? :worship

Maybe you could upload the file just for a a few days like, then delete it from the server, to save space, like you've done before.
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 15 May 2022, 20:14

Yes.
PM me!
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Scooterman » 16 May 2022, 21:30

Output Voltage Value for each motor when joystick fully forward?

What value should it be for lithium? Currently it's set to 22.5v but I'm guessing that's for lead.
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby steves1977uk » 16 May 2022, 23:23

25v is the highest you can go SM, as you need to leave some headroom for steering. :thumbup:

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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Scooterman » 17 May 2022, 03:03

steves1977uk wrote:25v is the highest you can go SM, as you need to leave some headroom for steering. :thumbup:

Steve

Cheers Steve. I remember you telling me that ages ago, but I just wanted to check to make sure I remembered correctly. :thumbup:

Also in the motor section, it says for my chair,

Maximum Rated Speed 6.5mph.

And Maximum displayed speed 6.5mph.

Do I need to change any of these?
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Scooterman » 17 May 2022, 07:31

Sorry to be a nuisance again.

But how exactly does the dealer dongle workaround work?

I’d previously borrowed an OEM dongle and saved the settings to file. So I can open the OEM file with software, alter settings, and write to chair with dealer dongle.

But for a new chair (or controller), the dealer dongle only reads the dealer settings?

How do you get it to read the OEM settings? :eh:
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 17 May 2022, 08:39

READ THIS... https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... f=2&t=8035 before trying to set up your chair.


Now, when you use your dealer level dongle, dealer software and save a settings file to your desktop, that file is marked as DEALER access only.

If you now use the OEM software and then open that dealer file, it is still dealer restricted. You cannot edit OEM stuff. If you now SAVE it with a new name to your desktop it then becomes an OEM level file.

Now, re-open the OEM software, and use that to re-open that new file and you can edit all the OEM stuff and re-save to the desktop.

Now use the DEALER software and DEALER dongle to write that changed file to the chair complete...
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Scooterman » 17 May 2022, 09:43

Thank you for that BM, and for link. I remember following your guide when I first set up my chair with the borrowed OEM dongle, and it’s been brilliant. For now I just want to up the motor volts a tad cos I installed lithium after I’d borrowed the OEM dongle.

But I’ve always wanted to get hold of a dongle for occasional use or if I get a new r-net chair or controller. And Jimbo sold me his dealer version for a fair price.
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Scooterman » 17 May 2022, 16:39

The workaround works well BM, all clever stuff :worship

I've written the new setting to chair but have not tried it out yet. :thumbup:
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Burgerman » 17 May 2022, 19:16

Also in the motor section, it says for my chair,

Maximum Rated Speed 6.5mph.

And Maximum displayed speed 6.5mph.

Do I need to change any of these?


Max rated speed is the top speed of the chair. The controller will display this speed when the joystick is at full forwards stick. Changing voltage as you have may or may not mean that this reads the same or higher at full stick. But I never tested. I expect that it will read the same even if the increased voltage makes it faster.
Max displayed speed is the 0 to 6.5 or 0 to 7mph displayed on screen.

Be aware that I always get these two mixed up and so it may be the opposite way around. The descriptions confuse me! So you might need to experiment...
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Re: R-net dealer dongle not communicating with PC software

Postby Scooterman » 18 May 2022, 08:55

I shall give it a test run this morning :thumbup:
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