X8 configuration

[Burgerman]

You are trying to make it steer properly?
Motor Load Compensation is a positive feedback loop that looks at the current (Amps) that a motor draws which is always higher when under load, and it adds more! By increasing the pulsewidth quickly to compensate. So if a motor is loaded by say a rock, it applies more torque automatically without you having to add more "throttle" or more "turn" via the joystick. When the load vanishes, such as when the tyre clims up that rock, it rapidly reduces the extra power so you do not overshoot or jump up in speed or turn.

Because its a positive feedback system, setting this too high can result in a runaway that you cannot control. So only increase in small steps and test.

Its very hard to steer accurately or judge if compensation is correctly set unless the steering responds in near real time. So set TURN SPEED, and MINIMUM TURN SPEED to low like 30 and 15.

Then be sure to set TURN ACCELERATION, MINIMUM TURN ACCELERATION, and TURN DECELERATION, MINIMUM TURN DECELERATION to 100.
In order to do so, you will probably need to go to the ABS or FACTORY settings where the max and minimum allowed settings (walls) are set first.

After this it will be much more accurate and steer properly. And do so in linear and proportional fashion instead of flopping about...

[fishinjunky]

Hello.

I'l Fred, from France, not to much familiar with english, and even less less with a computer !

I've a Magic Mobility X8.
I do ''little'' changes on it, to make it for what I need ( I cut the frame to make it longer -10cm- to improve stability. I do with my X8 95% of huge off road. The 2 original eavy 74Ah lead battery are now in my garage and because I got 10cm more room for the batteries I installed 2 LiFePO4 110Ah. In my mountainous area I can ride my X8 for 45 until 55 km depending on the D+. Because of I was helicopter pilot, the joystick is in a new place I love ! I changed the eavy seat and footrest and now my X8 is 110kg, so 40kg less.)

So, with a solder, grinding or so I've no problem, but with PC ... Yes I have !

I bought, with the help of Woody, a dongle, A model, but with the help of BurgerMan I can connect it to my X8 and to my PC.

I need to change some values, especially the ''Maximum Turn Acceleration''.
This standard value is really stupid AND dangerous.
When I'm climbing a huge hill, and maybe my X8 need 60% of power, if I need to turn, even a little little bit, this value decrease the power to 40% and I'm stuck.
I want also to access some configuration with OBP when I'm in the field without bringing with me my expensive dongle.

So, my request is here:
Could some one editing me the .R-net folder with the values I need ?

Thanks.

Fred.

I like those tires. How are they on pavement? Manageable?

[Burgerman]

From experience all those off road style tread patterns feel bobbly as you roll. And vibrate or buzz a little at speed. And they last a month or two instead of 18 months. Your mileage may vary...

[Micka7405]

You are trying to make it steer properly?
Motor Load Compensation is a positive feedback loop that looks at the current (Amps) that a motor draws which is always higher when under load, and it adds more! By increasing the pulsewidth quickly to compensate. So if a motor is loaded by say a rock, it applies more torque automatically without you having to add more "throttle" or more "turn" via the joystick. When the load vanishes, such as when the tyre clims up that rock, it rapidly reduces the extra power so you do not overshoot or jump up in speed or turn.

Because its a positive feedback system, setting this too high can result in a runaway that you cannot control. So only increase in small steps and test.

Its very hard to steer accurately or judge if compensation is correctly set unless the steering responds in near real time. So set TURN SPEED, and MINIMUM TURN SPEED to low like 30 and 15.

Then be sure to set TURN ACCELERATION, MINIMUM TURN ACCELERATION, and TURN DECELERATION, MINIMUM TURN DECELERATION to 100.
In order to do so, you will probably need to go to the ABS or FACTORY settings where the max and minimum allowed settings (walls) are set first.

After this it will be much more accurate and steer properly. And do so in linear and proportional fashion instead of flopping about...

no good turns very well
I read in the R-Net software that 70mOhms should not be exceeded and I wonder what is the minimum value to not go below

[Micka7405]

From experience all those off road style tread patterns feel bobbly as you roll. And vibrate or buzz a little at speed. And they last a month or two instead of 18 months. Your mileage may vary...

think I have the same rims as in Fred005's X8 photo on my X8, carlisle the brand
they are not very comfortable on the road but it is fine enough
on the other hand they are indestructible in all terrain mine have almost 2000km ofroad and they are still going to do more than double
and here ground is very hart like stone

[Micka7405]

Hello.

I'l Fred, from France, not to much familiar with english, and even less less with a computer !

I've a Magic Mobility X8.
I do ''little'' changes on it, to make it for what I need ( I cut the frame to make it longer -10cm- to improve stability. I do with my X8 95% of huge off road. The 2 original eavy 74Ah lead battery are now in my garage and because I got 10cm more room for the batteries I installed 2 LiFePO4 110Ah. In my mountainous area I can ride my X8 for 45 until 55 km depending on the D+. Because of I was helicopter pilot, the joystick is in a new place I love ! I changed the eavy seat and footrest and now my X8 is 110kg, so 40kg less.)

So, with a solder, grinding or so I've no problem, but with PC ... Yes I have !

I bought, with the help of Woody, a dongle, A model, but with the help of BurgerMan I can connect it to my X8 and to my PC.

I need to change some values, especially the ''Maximum Turn Acceleration''.
This standard value is really stupid AND dangerous.
When I'm climbing a huge hill, and maybe my X8 need 60% of power, if I need to turn, even a little little bit, this value decrease the power to 40% and I'm stuck.
I want also to access some configuration with OBP when I'm in the field without bringing with me my expensive dongle.

So, my request is here:
Could some one editing me the .R-net folder with the values I need ?

Thanks.

Fred.

I like those tires. How are they on pavement? Manageable?

think I have the same rims as in Fred005's X8 photo on my X8, carlisle the brand
They are not very comfortable on the road but it is fine enough
on the other hand they are indestructible in all terrain mine have almost 2000km ofroad and they are still going to do more than double
and here ground is very hart like stone

[Burgerman]

no good turns very well
I read in the R-Net software that 70mOhms should not be exceeded and I wonder what is the minimum value to not go below

Theres no upper or lower limit as it depends on what the actua electrical impedance of your motors.
You can set it easily.
Set it as low as you want. It just will do nothing. Will feel like you are driving through glue. It affects everything.
Set it to say 80% of the correct point, by increasing in small steps, and you will JUST detect it beginning to work. Set it to 90% of the correct value and the thing becomes much more responsive and more "jumpy". Set it to the correct point and the thing seems to have far more torque and control. Set it to 105% of the correct value and the chair becomes slightly jumpy and nervous. Set it to 10% too much and it becomes VERY jumpy and not nice to use. Set it any higher and you can get sudden runaways, no control etc. So be careful!

The correct settng on one of my chairs is 35 mOhm. The correct setting on some chairs like weedy 2 pole motors can be 130mOhm or higher. With 2x motors you probably want to be around 30 or close. Dont increase by more than 5mOhm at a time. Set to ZERO to get a feel for what it does by removing its effect.

[Micka7405]

okay
Muchas thank you!

[Micka7405]

I tried with a setting of 60mOms
x8 is out of control
then I did a test at 20mOms and 10mOms
x8 softens
finally 25mOms suits me maybe 30mOms would be good too

depending on the configuration, does this have an impact on the amp draw?

Thank you

[Micka7405]

@fred005, no photo of your modified frame?

[Burgerman]

The movement of the chair and the load the motors must overcome is proportional to amp draw. And its highest under max load, not speed. And lowest when spinning free unloaded.

[Micka7405]

I don't understand the answer
maybe my question was wrong

I wanted to know if adjusting or lowering the compensation of the motors can change the consumption of the amps.
gracias

[Burgerman]

Yes I know. And that was the correct answer.

Motor load compensation only increases amps by the same amount that you would have also had to increase it by shoving the joystick further to make the thing move, climb, or turn. Or it would not move.

Amps = torque. However you get it.

So yes it does increase amps under load, but thats the whole point. It means YOU dont have to add more turn (amps) or more throttle (amps) yourself... So the answer is yes it does, and thats what makes the chair work properly because it has to do so. Or YOU have to add more with the joystick under load.

Think about your car. You are driving along on level ground at fixed 10% throttle (gas). You come to a steep hill. To maintain same speed you can have "cruise control" that adds more gas automatically. (THAT is what motor load compensation does) OR you can press the gas pedal yourself. Or the cars slows to a stop... Both methods use more gas. Or you stop.
So its the same thing with the same result. Except that Motor load compensation works much better and on turns too, helps much faster and on individual motors.

[Burgerman]

@fred005 is long gone. He started claiming black was white to save face when it was pointed out that he was wrong. And then being rude and insulting me and several members here inc myself. So I removed him...

[Micka7405]

Yes I know. And that was the correct answer.

Motor load compensation only increases amps by the same amount that you would have also had to increase it by shoving the joystick further to make the thing move, climb, or turn. Or it would not move.

Amps = torque. However you get it.

So yes it does increase amps under load, but thats the whole point. It means YOU dont have to add more turn (amps) or more throttle (amps) yourself... So the answer is yes it does, and thats what makes the chair work properly because it has to do so. Or YOU have to add more with the joystick under load.

Think about your car. You are driving along on level ground at fixed 10% throttle (gas). You come to a steep hill. To maintain same speed you can have "cruise control" that adds more gas automatically. (THAT is what motor load compensation does) OR you can press the gas pedal yourself. Or the cars slows to a stop... Both methods use more gas. Or you stop.
So its the same thing with the same result. Except that Motor load compensation works much better and on turns too, helps much faster and on individual motors.

okay i understood now

[Micka7405]

@fred005 is long gone. He started claiming black was white to save face when it was pointed out that he was wrong. And then being rude and insulting me and several members here inc myself. So I removed him...

so no photo of it's frame here ¿

[Burgerman]

Dont think so. It was a normal x8 as far as we know. With terrible drop in lithium and the joystick in the wrong place for proper control.

[Micka7405]

Dont think so. It was a normal x8 as far as we know. With terrible drop in lithium and the joystick in the wrong place for proper control.

no, you are wrong, look at the photo of his x8, it is at least 10 cm longer than the original

I read an article of this type a few months ago in another forum and unfortunately I don't remember in which forum

in my x8 my joystick is exactly in the same place as him and for all terrain especially in the forest it is an ideal place I don't understand why you say otherwise.

I still tested the trim settings for the motors.
at 30mOms for a fairly steep climb that lasts 20 minutes my engines are at 45°C
at 60mOms for exactly the same test that are at 68°C very hot I find

at 30mOms I took exactly 15 amps for the rise
at 60mOms I took 17.1 amps

It's a bit like in the car with cruise control. when using cruise control it requires a lot of engine power to stay close to the set speed

with the setting at 60mOms, as soon as there's a hole or a rock or something like that, X8 wants you to jump over it as fast as possible and the amps go up.
at 30mOms or even 25mOms the X8 runs smoother and the amps hardly move
i will stay with 25/30mOms it is good for me

all that is very interesting

[Burgerman]

no, you are wrong, look at the photo of his x8, it is at least 10 cm longer than the original

Is it? I wouldnt know I dont have one

in my x8 my joystick is exactly in the same place as him and for all terrain especially in the forest it is an ideal place I don't understand why you say otherwise.

Because once programmed for accurate linear response, you MUST have your hand on the side of the joystick for proper linear control. Using that as a reference point. So that you have proper control of the joystick.

I still tested the trim settings for the motors.
at 30mOms for a fairly steep climb that lasts 20 minutes my engines are at 45°C
at 60mOms for exactly the same test that are at 68°C very hot I find

Your measrements must be innacurate or the climb wasnt exactly the same.
A motor does x amount of work to climb any given slope at a given speed. And that motor efficiency doesent change just because you have low or correct motor compensation. So the heat wasted due to motor efficiency is also the same. To get more heat you would need to climb the same slope faster, or climb a steeper slope. The motors have no idea if you even have motor compensation or how you are regulating their power.

at 30mOms I took exactly 15 amps for the rise
at 60mOms I took 17.1 amps

Same slope, same speed, = same heat. So you are trying to measure something that you cannont be doing under controlled conditions.

It's a bit like in the car with cruise control. when using cruise control it requires a lot of engine power to stay close to the set speed

If YOU drive without cruise control your right foot will need to add the extra power as needed to maintain speed.
But the real difference is that motor compensation does not determine speed. You do with the joystick. If you want to slow down every time you find a slope or ramp or hill then you tell the chair to go slower. Thats why it has a proportional joystick.

with the setting at 60mOms, as soon as there's a hole or a rock or something like that, X8 wants you to jump over it as fast as possible and the amps go up.

No it tries to maintain a constant joystick responce as far as acceleration, speed etc is concerned. It also adds extra torque when needed to preven the motors stalling agains a curb, threshold etc. So if speed is set to low, then it still has the required torque to respond normally even if the load is greater. It gives linear controlled response.

at 30mOms or even 25mOms the X8 runs smoother and the amps hardly move
i will stay with 25/30mOms it is good for me

The amps do not have anyhing to do with climbing the rock. If you let the load compensation do this or if YOU do this by gunning the throttle it takes exactly the same amps! Whatever amps are needed to climb a rock is what was required regardless of what causes it. The thing is it does much more than this.
For e.g you probably have steer speed set to something like
turn speed 35
min turn speed 12.
That means when set to low speed you are only getting 12% of the potential voltage. (Its actually worse as theres a hidden scaler of 50% too.
So now FULL right stick will only give you around 6% of your 24V. That doesent make the motors produce enough torque because low amps. So it will not turn reliable when in say mud or snow. WITH motor compensation, your 6% voltage at max right stick, gets a help. Up to 80 or 90% of the 120A available.

[Micka7405]

it is exactly the same slope where I did my tests, the same road

I do not agree with you because with the compensation at 60mOms the x8 does a little as it wants when an obstacle arrives on a wheel and at 60mOms instead of calmly crossing the obstacle x8 only accelerates
I also tried going up to 90mOms in the garage and as soon as you touch the x8 joystick a little it jumps forward. it's very dangerous

with the setting at 25/30mOms to pass an obstacle it stays at the speed I ask for it does not accelerate on its own

for the joystick and its place, my forearm, the right or the left depending on where I drive, it is placed on my right or left thigh, so there is no problem

I'll try to find the forum where this guy wrote what he modified on his x8, it's huge.


''So now FULL right stick will only give you around 6% of your 24V. That doesent make the motors produce enough torque because low amps.''

In short, I do not have only 24v but 35v when it is fully charged and between 34 and 29 as a minimum with 10 x 310 amps, so there are many amps

good afternoon guys

[Micka7405]

I have another question in mind
this one, when i do very long, very long, steep descents, x8 charges the cells up to 20 amps per hour.
Sometimes I can recharge 30 amps
Is it bad for the cells because there is no balance?

[steves1977uk]

Most X8's have the joystick in the standard position as shown here... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=magic+mobility+x8&ia=images

Steve

[steves1977uk]

In short, I do not have only 24v but 35v when it is fully charged and between 34 and 29 as a minimum with 10 x 310 amps, so there are many amps

At 35v you run the risk of burning up the PM. Normally it trips at 35v due to too high voltage. A 10S pack would be 36v fully charged, so you'd have to wait a little while until volts were under 34 for the pod to turn on.

Steve

[Burgerman]

I do not agree with you because with the compensation at 60mOms the x8 does a little as it wants when an obstacle arrives on a wheel and at 60mOms instead of calmly crossing the obstacle x8 only accelerates
I also tried going up to 90mOms in the garage and as soon as you touch the x8 joystick a little it jumps forward. it's very dangerous

Yes because you set it too high it accelerates. Set it too low and it is gutless. Thats why you must set it CORRECTLY.

[Fusiongoat]

Dont think so. It was a normal x8 as far as we know. With terrible drop in lithium and the joystick in the wrong place for proper control.

no, you are wrong, look at the photo of his x8, it is at least 10 cm longer than the original

I read an article of this type a few months ago in another forum and unfortunately I don't remember in which forum

in my x8 my joystick is exactly in the same place as him and for all terrain especially in the forest it is an ideal place I don't understand why you say otherwise.

I still tested the trim settings for the motors.
at 30mOms for a fairly steep climb that lasts 20 minutes my engines are at 45°C
at 60mOms for exactly the same test that are at 68°C very hot I find

at 30mOms I took exactly 15 amps for the rise
at 60mOms I took 17.1 amps

It's a bit like in the car with cruise control. when using cruise control it requires a lot of engine power to stay close to the set speed

with the setting at 60mOms, as soon as there's a hole or a rock or something like that, X8 wants you to jump over it as fast as possible and the amps go up.
at 30mOms or even 25mOms the X8 runs smoother and the amps hardly move
i will stay with 25/30mOms it is good for me

all that is very interesting

I have these motors. They need to be set to 60mohms or you will have problems. You will find an obstacle you can't climb at 30. There's no point in giving yourself less capable motors.

[Micka7405]

Most X8's have the joystick in the standard position as shown here... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=magic+mobility+x8&ia=images

Steve

maybe and it is because most of x8 users do not do what i do with my x8 ...

[Micka7405]

In short, I do not have only 24v but 35v when it is fully charged and between 34 and 29 as a minimum with 10 x 310 amps, so there are many amps

At 35v you run the risk of burning up the PM. Normally it trips at 35v due to too high voltage. A 10S pack would be 36v fully charged, so you'd have to wait a little while until volts were under 34 for the pod to turn on.

Steve

no they are rated for 35v
my pack will never go up to 35v because i set the end charging at 35v
when charge is charging a few seconds after you stop the charger volts is a few below 35v so no any problem

and with mire volts less amperes and the electronic modul is less hot too

[Micka7405]

I do not agree with you because with the compensation at 60mOms the x8 does a little as it wants when an obstacle arrives on a wheel and at 60mOms instead of calmly crossing the obstacle x8 only accelerates
I also tried going up to 90mOms in the garage and as soon as you touch the x8 joystick a little it jumps forward. it's very dangerous

¡ bien estamos de acuerdo !

Yes because you set it too high it accelerates. Set it too low and it is gutless. Thats why you must set it CORRECTLY.

[Micka7405]

Dont think so. It was a normal x8 as far as we know. With terrible drop in lithium and the joystick in the wrong place for proper control.

no, you are wrong, look at the photo of his x8, it is at least 10 cm longer than the original

I read an article of this type a few months ago in another forum and unfortunately I don't remember in which forum

in my x8 my joystick is exactly in the same place as him and for all terrain especially in the forest it is an ideal place I don't understand why you say otherwise.

I still tested the trim settings for the motors.
at 30mOms for a fairly steep climb that lasts 20 minutes my engines are at 45°C
at 60mOms for exactly the same test that are at 68°C very hot I find

at 30mOms I took exactly 15 amps for the rise
at 60mOms I took 17.1 amps

It's a bit like in the car with cruise control. when using cruise control it requires a lot of engine power to stay close to the set speed

with the setting at 60mOms, as soon as there's a hole or a rock or something like that, X8 wants you to jump over it as fast as possible and the amps go up.
at 30mOms or even 25mOms the X8 runs smoother and the amps hardly move
i will stay with 25/30mOms it is good for me

all that is very interesting

I have these motors. They need to be set to 60mohms or you will have problems. You will find an obstacle you can't climb at 30. There's no point in giving yourself less capable motors.

I absolutely do not agree
at 60mOms the x8 is not nice to drive and is a bit dangerous

the original setting of Magic Mobility is 30mOms and already at 35mOms it is less pleasant
at 25mOms I did not see a difference with 30mOms

and come visit me you will see if at 30mOms I don't cross any obstacle... jajaja.

[Micka7405]

I have another question in mind
this one, when i do very long, very long, steep descents, x8 charges the cells up to 20 amps per hour.
Sometimes I can recharge 30 amps
Is it bad for the cells because there is no balance?

bm when you have time can you tell me your opinion please
gracias