Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

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Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby SweetBearCub » 30 Jul 2022, 14:49

I'm in the process of ordering a new chair and I'm trying to get a Bounder 300 with R-Net controls and the 8.5 MPH speed package. People here mentioned that it could be done as a custom order. This is the reply I received from the person at wheelchair dealership handling my order.

"I was about to start completing all the justifications for the items and noticed the speed package was only 6mph. So I called the factory and spoke to the owner and he explained that the R-Net is only capable of 6mph with their motors as it is not powerful enough. To get the 8.5 mph we will need to go with the LiNX electronics. Please let me know which is more important: R-Net or 8.5mph? I can still complete all the other item justifications until I hear back."

Assuming that I do not want to give up the top speed package, am I really screwed into using LiNX?

I wish that we could have personal mobility budgets here, but alas, that would mean giving up all insurance coverage for purchasing and maintaining the equipment. If I was rich..
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby rover220 » 30 Jul 2022, 16:05

Linx is 120a max same as rnet is.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby steves1977uk » 30 Jul 2022, 16:16

I got told the same BS when I got my Dietz chair part funded through Wheelchair Services here in the UK. The OT was like, "Any chairs that we pay towards have to be LiNX controls only since R-net is obsolete..." Until I proved them wrong! They just made themselves look like fools. :lol:

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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Arima » 30 Jul 2022, 18:24

I'm curious how you proved them wrong? Seems difficult to find people that will even listen to an alternate point of view. Glad you were able to convince them!
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby martin007 » 30 Jul 2022, 19:30

Burgerman!
Any reason to use Linex?



P.S. I'm not a shareholder of Invacare.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby steves1977uk » 30 Jul 2022, 21:15

Arima wrote:I'm curious how you proved them wrong? Seems difficult to find people that will even listen to an alternate point of view. Glad you were able to convince them!


Simple, I showed them that the Dietz chairs uses Curtiss-Wright controls and R-net or VR2 are the options you can have fitted. I went for the 120A PM system since I have an OEM dongle to allow me to set it up to suit me.

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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby steves1977uk » 30 Jul 2022, 21:26

martin007 wrote:Burgerman!
Any reason to use Linex?



P.S. I'm not a shareholder of Invacare.


I can answer that Martin, LiNX isn't any better than R-net. In fact it's harder to get OEM access for without having to pay for a 3rd party patch that unlocks it. Even then there's no guarantee the patch will keep working. And the PC programming software is very unintuitive to use.

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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jul 2022, 23:54

steves1977uk wrote:I got told the same BS when I got my Dietz chair part funded through Wheelchair Services here in the UK. The OT was like, "Any chairs that we pay towards have to be LiNX controls only since R-net is obsolete..." Until I proved them wrong! They just made themselves look like fools. :lol:

Steve


Obsolete? :lol:

Truly they are moronic. And completely clueless about powerchairs. They dont employ the right people. A middle aged OT thats been on 3 or 4 day courses (a jolly with cake and more wasted NHS money) just does not have any kind of natural interest or abilities. They are employing the wrong people.

R-net's got a massively bigger market share, its a better system in regards the "system" as a whole, its easy to get new or ebay parts for silly money, and its properly user programmable even with a dealer dongle that you can order from any dealer. Or chair manufacturer. They are world class ignoramuses. And its not just control systems. But they DO now give me free money instead of trying to deal with me themselves. So I buy what the hell I choose, used, parts, new, modified, or whatever. Currently letter writing for my 5th cheque. It takes them a year because thats the speed of the socialist NHS. So I send it in a year early, and then harass them to get on with it. That way I get my money every 3 years for a new chair. Based on MY assessement of exact needs and specs.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Fusiongoat » 31 Jul 2022, 01:30

SweetBearCub wrote:I'm in the process of ordering a new chair and I'm trying to get a Bounder 300 with R-Net controls and the 8.5 MPH speed package. People here mentioned that it could be done as a custom order. This is the reply I received from the person at wheelchair dealership handling my order.

"I was about to start completing all the justifications for the items and noticed the speed package was only 6mph. So I called the factory and spoke to the owner and he explained that the R-Net is only capable of 6mph with their motors as it is not powerful enough. To get the 8.5 mph we will need to go with the LiNX electronics. Please let me know which is more important: R-Net or 8.5mph? I can still complete all the other item justifications until I hear back."

Assuming that I do not want to give up the top speed package, am I really screwed into using LiNX?

I wish that we could have personal mobility budgets here, but alas, that would mean giving up all insurance coverage for purchasing and maintaining the equipment. If I was rich..

This is basically just eccentric nonsense. I don't doubt that they really believe it, but it's completely not true and makes no sense. It's a lot of magical thinking regarding the refusal to recognize that their motors are out of date and they should just buy good motors like every other manufacturer. You could try to insist on R-net but they really seem to love Linx, for some stupid reason. I wouldn't doubt that Linx is cheaper but I don't think that's all of it. If you want R-net and speed you may have to get a different brand. This is not an insurance problem, it's 100% a 21st Century Scientific problem.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby expresso » 31 Jul 2022, 02:50

i find that very strange - the people at bounder are all very nice and helpful all the time i called - i am curious and will call next time to ask about that

but if thats the case and you have to decide - Get the Rnet - and then buy the sprocket chain set for the 8.5 mph speed - thats all it is that changes the speed

you will have the ST4 motors - which are good for bottom end - i dont see why it wont work at 8.5 and rnet -

thats one way around it - the only thing i can see that would make this difficult would be - would they sell you the 8.5mph chain sprocket set up and you install it yourself ?

or would they say they cant because you have Rnet - or would they ask or care - if you are paying out of pocket - thats something you have to consider can happen

it dosnt sound right to me - i will ask that also - if i get a new 300m with rnet can i get the 8.5 - if not can i buy the parts myself after the fact ?

i want to see what they tell me - i know they are working on a better front fork set up in the future - and the new 300m does have shocks that are angled unlike mines - am told they are much better than what i have -

i also told them about thinking of changing how the tire rim mounts to the hub etc, sounds like they may or are thinking of changing that set up so the studs are on the hub already and tire rim can be installed easier like all other chairs

its a work in progress since they have to go thru a transformation slowly if they want to stay in the game and work with Medicare Medicaid insurances
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Burgerman » 31 Jul 2022, 07:31

Linx and R-Net are BOTH 120A per channel.

Linx is 90A plus 2 seconds boost to 120A.
R-net is 100A plus 10 seconds boost to 120A.

So in use both perform pretty much the same. Provided you can get hold of an OEM level programmer for the LiNX system. And you cant. I have one here, and its hacked. At some cost. But any updates and thats no longer working. And when it is its horribly non intuitive to the extent that I cant use it. And it doesent even work properly in windows as its written for a tablet or something.

With R-Net its actually got higher base power (100 over 90A) AND a longer 120A boost time. So R-Net is arguably the better choice for 8.5mph. But that speed is a bad plan anyway. Even at 120A it lacks torque and control. All OEM access can be done with R-Net via the easy to get dealer level tools with a small easy workaround... :shh:
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Fusiongoat » 01 Aug 2022, 05:01

Burgerman wrote:Linx and R-Net are BOTH 120A per channel.

Linx is 90A plus 2 seconds boost to 120A.
R-net is 100A plus 10 seconds boost to 120A.

2 seconds? That seems lame. That seems like not enough time for a curb etc. I guess my Frontier only has 90A, but I can switch to 120A once the warranty expires. If you get Linx, you're kinda stuck and that's the problem. Plus, ST3 are so low torque that 90A will really feel like 70A max. Yuck.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Burgerman » 01 Aug 2022, 11:59

Its longer than you think. When climbing a curb it may ramp UP to 120A peak if needed but mostly its less than that. So you may only need half a second actually at 120A. It might be adjustable in their Linx OEM software which I have here. Not that it is even remotely understandable or intuitive and so I cant tell...

Saying its 120A and 100A is very misleading though. It is a more complicated thing on both controllers.

It may START at up to 120A if cool enough, and if you have not just been doing anything else that but it may never give you that again if it warmed it up... And if it eats into the stal current rollback time. And a few other parameters that all interreact.

It depends on many settings. Some designed to protect motors from burning up, some to protect loom, some to protect the controllers mosfets etc. Some is time based, some is temperature based. Some is MOTOR current based, some is BATTERY current based. These thins are all different at different speeds and times depending on load.

So the reality is that depending on settings in programming you will see maybe a few seconds at 120A if its the first attempt, and then as you continue to load the motors on say a ramp, curb or zero turn on a heavy pile carpet, the current will decrease every few seconds in stages until you reach whatever is the sum of the many protection circuits and programming. Maybe 50 to 65 MOTOR amps, and 70 combined battery amps which becomes limiting as speed increases under load.

In reality the two systems perform pretty much the same with stock default programming. And non can do 90 or 100A motor amps for long, never mind 120!

How do I know? I have a test bench. (A normal bench with a few clamp meters! And its simple to measure it. And with R-Net you can do that with the built in sensors and the programmer. Drive to a wall, gun it, read on screen and watch as it happens. Battery and motors volts and amps all at once real time.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby SweetBearCub » 06 Aug 2022, 09:24

expresso wrote:i find that very strange - the people at bounder are all very nice and helpful all the time i called - i am curious and will call next time to ask about that

but if thats the case and you have to decide - Get the Rnet - and then buy the sprocket chain set for the 8.5 mph speed - thats all it is that changes the speed

you will have the ST4 motors - which are good for bottom end - i dont see why it wont work at 8.5 and rnet -

thats one way around it - the only thing i can see that would make this difficult would be - would they sell you the 8.5mph chain sprocket set up and you install it yourself ?

or would they say they cant because you have Rnet - or would they ask or care - if you are paying out of pocket - thats something you have to consider can happen

it dosnt sound right to me - i will ask that also - if i get a new 300m with rnet can i get the 8.5 - if not can i buy the parts myself after the fact ?

i want to see what they tell me - i know they are working on a better front fork set up in the future - and the new 300m does have shocks that are angled unlike mines - am told they are much better than what i have -

i also told them about thinking of changing how the tire rim mounts to the hub etc, sounds like they may or are thinking of changing that set up so the studs are on the hub already and tire rim can be installed easier like all other chairs

its a work in progress since they have to go thru a transformation slowly if they want to stay in the game and work with Medicare Medicaid insurances


Thanks!

You seem to be more up on who to call at 21st, did you get an answer?

Also if I go with R-Net and want the sprocket set, should I have my dealer order the sprocket set, or is that something that I should get directly from 21st after the fact?
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Burgerman » 06 Aug 2022, 11:39

In the UK there are several companies that cut sprockets for chains as a custom service. So probably same in US. These tend to be cheaper than you expect.

Its also posible to get these cut in aluminium alloy, which wear just as well and are lighter and quieter. And in PTFE which is much quieter and practically wear proof. You just send them a sprocket, and they copy it with however many teeth you want. And they will send you a matching chait of any length. Even O Ring chains (no lubrication needed as the grease is inside and sealed in with O rings like a modern motorcycle). O rings will use a little more battery, but no maintainance really needed. And they last a hell of a lot longer, never need adjustment.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby SweetBearCub » 06 Aug 2022, 14:24

Burgerman wrote:In the UK there are several companies that cut sprockets for chains as a custom service. So probably same in US. These tend to be cheaper than you expect.

Its also posible to get these cut in aluminium alloy, which wear just as well and are lighter and quieter. And in PTFE which is much quieter and practically wear proof. You just send them a sprocket, and they copy it with however many teeth you want. And they will send you a matching chait of any length. Even O Ring chains (no lubrication needed as the grease is inside and sealed in with O rings like a modern motorcycle). O rings will use a little more battery, but no maintainance really needed. And they last a hell of a lot longer, never need adjustment.



I've never heard of any service like that, but I have no experience in fabrication. I'm guessing that a metal shop would be where I start?
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby expresso » 06 Aug 2022, 16:34

i never got around to calling them about the Rnet etc, i been a bit busy - got my tire fixed tube replaced and adjusted the rebound and spring tension -

will test it today for a bit - get the feel of it again - i dont have anyone special i speak with there - i just call the number and let them know i have there chair and have a question about this or that etc.

they find the right person for the question and thats it - so far never had a problem getting to them or getting answers - next day i am home with some time - i have to make some calls for other things - i try them

about the sprocket chain set for 8.5 - thats a combination of front sprocket and rear - and chain - it would be easier to get it with the chair new already done installed - but thats up to your vendor insurance if they will cover it - if insurance wont cover that - then its up to the vendor if they want to order it that way and you pay the difference - they can do that - but most will say NO they cant because of insurance this and that -

depends on the vendor sales guy your using - how much effort they want to put into this - most want the least effort and just dont want to deal with options this way -

i had this issue in the past with motors - i had to complain to there Boss to get them and pay the difference - did that again with my new chair -

you can ask bounder which is the best way to get it done - thru them when new or after the fact - if done after they have to replace most likely front and rear sprocket - it depends - which is used - things may be different now with there new chairs 300M -

maybe they have one size front sprocket that works for both speeds and just the rear is different - plus if you get Rnet you can raise the volts and gain a bit speed - actually a nice jump - its noticeable when i ride with another chair same as mines without the volts increased - i pull ahead good enough to notice a difference for sure - since then my friend wants me to change it on hers also one of these days -
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby fishinjunky » 07 Aug 2022, 17:40

I would print out a quote sheet fill it out myself then contact 21st Century Scientific by phone or email they are easy to contact and very responsive then once in contact work with them one on one to get exactly what you need then take that quote to the dealer. once the dealer submits their quote to 21st Century Scientific make sure 21st Century Scientific compares the quote you submitted to the one your dealer submits to make sure everything is EXACTLY the same. That's what I did when I got my bounder. I made sure only thing dealer did was paperwork an I made ALL the decisions when I got my bounder.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby expresso » 08 Aug 2022, 18:42

you were told correct about the Linx vs Rnet -

i was told its because of there motors - on hill step or other wise it has more roll before it locks up with there motors - no gears - Rnet dosnt give them the options to adjust for that - where i am told linx does and just works better with there motor combonation brakes when going with the High speed package -

also ST4 motor is not used for the high speed package - so if you get it with Rnet and ST4 motor standard at 6pmh - you can do it yourself if you wanted to try it - get your own sprockets made for it - they dont have the chain set to do it - or wont because they have not tested it or confirmed it to work with the ST4 and high speed motors

so your on your own if you want high speed and Rnet - or else its high speed and Linx - or 6pmh ST4 and Rnet - ST4 motors have more bottom end - with Rnet you can adjust volts also - gain a bit more - if your lucky maybe 7.5 after the volts - also remember on down hills - its full open - goes as fast as the hill is -

so you wont be limited to the stock speed on down hills - you may like it better with ST4 6mph rnet and make some adjustments - you will have best of both - power and speed

also they are adding a chain tensioner now - no more adjusting them - and changing over to silent brakes - here is a peak - i told them about the forks also - i think thats going to be the next modification to that chair going forward
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby fishinjunky » 08 Aug 2022, 20:26

expresso wrote:you were told correct about the Linx vs Rnet -

i was told its because of there motors - on hill step or other wise it has more roll before it locks up with there motors - no gears - Rnet dosnt give them the options to adjust for that - where i am told linx does and just works better with there motor combonation brakes when going with the High speed package -

also ST4 motor is not used for the high speed package - so if you get it with Rnet and ST4 motor standard at 6pmh - you can do it yourself if you wanted to try it - get your own sprockets made for it - they dont have the chain set to do it - or wont because they have not tested it or confirmed it to work with the ST4 and high speed motors

so your on your own if you want high speed and Rnet - or else its high speed and Linx - or 6pmh ST4 and Rnet - ST4 motors have more bottom end - with Rnet you can adjust volts also - gain a bit more - if your lucky maybe 7.5 after the volts - also remember on down hills - its full open - goes as fast as the hill is -

so you wont be limited to the stock speed on down hills - you may like it better with ST4 6mph rnet and make some adjustments - you will have best of both - power and speed

also they are adding a chain tensioner now - no more adjusting them - and changing over to silent brakes - here is a peak - i told them about the forks also - i think thats going to be the next modification to that chair going forward



Looks good :thumbup: , I have 3 more years before a new chair. Here is a side view of my bounder it's the model previous to the one you pictured. I removed the chain guards the clips holding them broke anyway
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby expresso » 08 Aug 2022, 20:31

Mines is the one before yours -

i have the same with no chain guard - and my rear shock spring setup is not angled - i was told yours the new one angled works Much better softer ride than mines even though yours has a harder spring -

what i did over the weekend though was adjust the rebound and spring tension - it worked better now - feels better - why i havnt done it before who knows - tire fixed tube replaced and went for a nice long ride - to get back into it -
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby expresso » 08 Aug 2022, 20:34

now they have to work on the front forks - suspension - and rear bolts to the hub so tires rims can be changed easier and spares kept ready with tire and rim connected like the others

its getting there -
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Fusiongoat » 08 Aug 2022, 21:18

[quote="expresso"]

i was told its because of there motors - on hill step or other wise it has more roll before it locks up with there motors - no gears - Rnet dosnt give them the options to adjust for that - where i am told linx does and just works better with there motor combonation brakes when going with the High speed package -
/quote]

I think there are two aspects to this. First, Linx senses various inputs and can adjust settings automatically as the chair is driven. There are youtube videos about this. I personally would not want this. I think it's creepy. The other question is whether it is really necessary. R-net has a setting called "Fast Braking Rate." On the Bounder I briefly had 21st Century Scientific set this to 200. Normally this should be set somewhere between 70 and 80. The effect of setting it to 200 is basically that the chair doesn't stop. Now do I trust people who do something like that to tell me that R-Net can't safely be used to stop their chair on a hill? No, I worry that these people just don't know how to use R-Net. Let's admit for the sake of argument that for some reason only on hills their motors brake more slowly. Do we really know that this difference is so significant that it's the cause of a big safety concern? If it is then how was the chair ever safe to drive before they added Linx to it? I don't know but I don't buy any of this. Again I don't doubt that they believe this 100% but they also believe that their outdated low torque motors that require a motor compensation setting of 90 "have more torque" than any other motor used in power wheelchairs. Finally if you are going to put yourself through the grinder of having to use Linx then why not at least try the Invacare Aviva Rx? Same annoying control system but modern high torque motors that won't guzzle your battery like a frat boy at an initiation. I am not saying this because I have a positive opinion of Invacare. I don't.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby expresso » 08 Aug 2022, 21:50

this is not about me wanting it - i am not looking to get a new bounder anytime soon

ST4 motors are the better ones which you have i believe - motor comp. i cant get into it since i am no expert here - but hard to say - cant compare apples to oranges - braking system i have is strong on my chair - i am using there own electronics - good up to 140A 70 each side -

if i were to get a new bounder one day - i dont plan on it - but if they improve it enough for me to consider it - i would get the Rnet with the ST4 6pmp - then just add a few volts and be fine - best of both worlds - power down low and some speed on top - down hills will be limitless speed - no gears

i have hit 15 and up to 18 i seen on GPS before - it was very fast - had to slow down either way at some point wheel shake comes into play - bikes have told me it was very fast - after the hill of course - its not as fast at first till it reaches speed again

so i dont know - this is what i was told - but i have to say this - on mines with there stock electronics - not much i did to it other than adjust stopping speed which i loosened i think - nothing else was touched or adjusted - so i am willing to bet for most users - no one touches it anyway and having linx as it is - most will be fine with it -

if high speed is the most important - thats it - if not Rnet ST4 6mph - raise volts and enjoy - i would do it that way if i did it again in the future - and after the fact - there is no one to say you cant change out your sprocket and chain to get more speed - but your on your own and have to go to a bike shop to get it done

they wont do it - even if they have the gear set - since it was not tested on there end in that config.,
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Burgerman » 08 Aug 2022, 23:42

I think there are two aspects to this. First, Linx senses various inputs and can adjust settings automatically as the chair is driven. There are youtube videos about this. I personally would not want this. I think it's creepy.


This is a bit of code that changes your motor load compnsation setting on the fly. It is still configred by someone (usually me on my own chairs) in the usual way. But it has the "ability" to change thins over a small range, higher and lower by itself. Why is this needed? Well really it isnt. Unless its set too low to begin with. Although I tweak mine manually every few months as I feel it needs it. Why would that need to be changed? Because responsiveness changes with your weight, the current state of your battery, both wear and charge. And as motors get older the magnets lose feild strength and so the motors draw less current under load as efficiency falls away. So it "might" be able to do these changes for you. Depending on how well it works... Either way its mostly marketing bull.

R-net has a setting called "Fast Braking Rate." On the Bounder I briefly had 21st Century Scientific set this to 200. Normally this should be set somewhere between 70 and 80. The effect of setting it to 200 is basically that the chair doesn't stop.


Other way around.
Fast Brake Rate is how much BACK STICK BRAKING the controller applies. I set that so when I apply MAXIMUM back stick braking the drive wheels just start to lock up very slightly. That way you CAN brake like a madman if you want, or you can brake with say half a stick of "back stick braking" to stop a little faster than normal. The braking that occurs when you release the stick (to the centre) is actually called MINIMUM FORWARD DECELERATION, and FORWARDS DECELERATION. You feel that as "braking" when you release the stick. All 3 of these settings can be set as high or low as you prefer. Individually.

Set MINIMUM FORWARD DECELERATION, and FORWARDS DECELLERATION too low and when you release the stick (centre the stick) or if motor compensation is too low, or if gearing is set too fast and then it sems to roll on too fast and not stop,
Set BACK STICK BRAKING (Called FAST BRAKE RATE) too low and when trying to "emergency stop" in a hurry, and the chair will not stop fast enough. Both of these are fully adjustable in both R-Net and in all of Dynamics systems. If you can figure out that terrible LiNX programmer. I cant!

Now do I trust people who do something like that to tell me that R-Net can't safely be used to stop their chair on a hill? No, I worry that these people just don't know how to use R-Net.

Run away run away run away... They sound clueless. BOTH systems are equal, and both can be fully adjusted and configured if you have any idea what you are doing. But its easier to configure in R-Net.

Let's admit for the sake of argument that for some reason only on hills their motors brake more slowly. Do we really know that this difference is so significant that it's the cause of a big safety concern? If it is then how was the chair ever safe to drive before they added Linx to it? I don't know but I don't buy any of this.

Neither do I.
You are correct to be sceptical. The BRAKING (both the normal deceleration when you release the stick, and the emergency back stick braking), are both FULLY configurable. It will not roll downhill, or brake too slowly, unless its misconfigured. For e.g motor load compensation set too low as well as deceleration or back stick braking configured too slow.

Personally I LIKE the chair to roll on and not slow down when I release the stick. Makes the ride smoother and you dont need to hold the stick pushed forwards all the time so you can grab a drink, or point to something without slowing much. So I set the DECELERATION very low. But I live on that BACK STICK BRAKE all the time to slow FAST whenever I need to do so. Like the brake pedal on a car. So I set that pretty high. Theres no standard number (like 70) as it depends on the gearing, motor windings, impedance, and how you want it to feel. Set to whatever works best for yourself on any specific chair.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby expresso » 09 Aug 2022, 03:04

Both the LiNX and R-net are great systems and each has its pros and cons. The only reason we like the LiNX electronics for our higher speed configuration is because the braking algorithm is more suited to our high speed motors. As you are aware, our motor does not use a gearbox. This makes for a very rugged motor construction that allows us to provide a five year warranty. The R-net allows a little more roll out on steep hills and ramps when the joystick is returned to neutral with the high speed configuration. There is no way to adjust for this like there is in the R-Net programming, but can be adjusted in the LiNX electronics. That is why we have decided to only offer the LiNX electronics. You will find that with our motor configuration, driving at full speed on the flat really does not take many amps (usually 15-30 amps). Starts and hills do draw more current. We found that the LiNX manages the power requirements very effectively in the high speed configuration.

When we provide a chair with the speed package, we use an alternate motor. There is not a way to use an ST4 motor and gear it up to 8.5 unless you used aftermarket sprockets. While in theory it could be done, the torque/speed characteristics have not been verified, thus we do not recommend it.

We have some exciting news coming for our chain drive system. We are going to a chain tensioner that will keep constant tension on the chain eliminating the need for adjustment. In addition we are also switching to an electric brake that is virtually silent. This brake will also provide a mechanical release that will allow the chair to be freewheeled more easily. See a sneak peek photo below.


this is the response i got - in there words
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie 636 - 200ah LifePo4
Bounder Plus - 200Ah LifePo4
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Burgerman » 09 Aug 2022, 08:27

They are not talking about braking or rapid deceleration. Just fraction of a second it takes for the ELECTRO MECHANICAL clicky brake to be applied once the chair stops. And that shouldnt bother anyone. I actually disable mone as it annoys me much of the tme.

The faster that operates the more clicky it becomes as you shuffle around inside. So they may be able to adjust that to be faster in the linx programming, but not sure thats a great idea. Frankly if thats the only difference I wouldnt care which system was fitted. Except for the non availability of RELIABLE OEM level access (I have this now but cannot garantee it will continue as things move forward with new firmwares etc). And to say its non intuitive is a massive understatement. And it doesent even work properly in windows. Very frustrating.

So R-Net all the way if you ask me.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Fusiongoat » 10 Aug 2022, 00:24

Burgerman wrote:They are not talking about braking or rapid deceleration. Just fraction of a second it takes for the ELECTRO MECHANICAL clicky brake to be applied once the chair stops. And that shouldnt bother anyone. I actually disable mone as it annoys me much of the tme.

The faster that operates the more clicky it becomes as you shuffle around inside. So they may be able to adjust that to be faster in the linx programming, but not sure thats a great idea. Frankly if thats the only difference I wouldnt care which system was fitted. Except for the non availability of RELIABLE OEM level access (I have this now but cannot garantee it will continue as things move forward with new firmwares etc). And to say its non intuitive is a massive understatement. And it doesent even work properly in windows. Very frustrating.

So R-Net all the way if you ask me.


After wracking my brain for a little while I recalled that while you are correct about the clicking also they are referring to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7aGnzg4ki8
Specifically -- the part of the video where she stops the chair and it does not roll backwards. What they told Expresso is the same except downhill. But here is the thing -- I just tried this on my driveway, which has a steeper incline than the in the video and my chair doesn't roll backwards either. Isn't this just solved by deceleration settings? I guess that it's true that how a chair is designed makes it more or less likely to come to a complete stop sooner on an incline but for the most part that is such a trivial reason to choose a controller when you can just have the settings adjusted. All I am referring to here is the fact that Amy Alltrack chairs apparently stop sooner on an incline than other chairs because of some clever arrangement of the suspension. This is nice and everything but again rather trivial.
Finally, I do understand that they're claiming that when the chair is going fast this is a nice safety feature. I just think most of this problem is alleviated through correct programming in the first place.
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Re: Told that I cannot get R-Net for my new Bounder?

Postby Burgerman » 10 Aug 2022, 05:24

Isn't this just solved by deceleration settings? I guess that it's true that how a chair is designed makes it more or less likely to come to a complete stop sooner on an incline but for the most part that is such a trivial reason to choose a controller when you can just have the settings adjusted. All I am referring to here is the fact that Amy Alltrack chairs apparently stop sooner on an incline than other chairs because of some clever arrangement of the suspension. This is nice and everything but again rather trivial.


Non of this brake click (brake applied or released) has anything at all to do with acceleration settings, or suspension. It simply applies the brake the moment the controller sees no wheel movement from EMF or from controller applied voltage. So as soon as it sees you have STOPPED it applies the brake. In order to prevent it from clicking on/off 50 times a second when this movement is super slow or on the brink of being applied and released, they add a time delay. That time a=is a few millisecs.

Now what DOES stop a chair rolling when on a slope is the gearbox type. Worm drive for e.g almost prevents the chair rolling even without a brake. Some gearboxes are harder to "push" and turn the motor. So that the direct chair drive offers little natural braking or natural resistance to rolling down hill. So those chairs are more prone to roll and so are more reliant on a brake to lock it in place. Like a handbrake. And the FASTER the gearing is, the lower the natural resistance to rolling downhill. Its easier to push a car in 5th gear than in 1st gear (manual gbox). So a fast bounder setup needs the motor brake much more than a typical 6mph 90 degree motor. But the TIME it takes between motor stopped, and brake applied is just a tiny bit of time.

I might add that motor load compensation also fights the tendency to roll. So if its rolling before the brake comes on then the load compensation is likely set too low. And thats quite likely.

And this has nothing at all to do with slowing a chair. So speed is not relevant. The brake trips ONLY as an ON OFF lock to hold a chair still when it is stationary, and when its joystick is central. Its an "automatic handbrake" only.
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