PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

[Scollard]

The wires will fit. They can go in the gaps the orange block pins leave.

I concur. Wires will fit beside the batteries if there is no room above and will run in the gaps.

[Scollard]

Oh ok - thanks for that - i didnt order yet -

you know what - i will just order the normal 2 hole buss bars - i have 19 - i need 24 ? i can order a few extra also - and a few orange blocks for the 15Ah Cell - i want to check my box with those just to double check - i will post pics later - i checked my chair last night -

I would get the square bus bars. The link I gave you was for the 12Ah cells. According to the website they are made by Headway in nickel coated steel. Headway discontinued making the nickel coated copper bus bars.

Here is how to assemble the orange blocks. For the top of the add-on battery, the outside rows are vertical in the picture while the 6 inner blocks are horizontal. We will use 3 square bus bars in the inner 6 blocks and 2 single bus bars on the outside 2 rows.

The bottom has all 8 blocks horizontal making 4 openings for 4 square bus bars.

[expresso]

Ok heres what i will do - to be safe - i have 19 bus bars now - 2 hole - i will order 5 more to have 24 total - and i will order the 7 4 hole and i should be covered this way - -

about the wiring - it would be very very tight - i would need to connect both packs first together - SB50 and wires - and cant go on top - then another wire going to the chair connector -thats a Black anderson so the grey ones i cant use - for that one

then the charge and balance cable once i make one - - they wont be any room on the sides either - maybe 6 mm space - it would be very hard i think - let me get the pictures i tool on here in a few mins -

[expresso]

Ok i will post two pics at a time to explain them - so not to get confused -

this is 6 high - you can see its a little bit over the top of the post - seems like nothing - but there would be no room for nothing at all on top of the pack if done - and would have to be forced in the chair - it would be scraped the divider thats over the batteries - i get to that in the later pics

[expresso]

these Two - this is how tight it would be - - with no room for wiring on top - so keep that in mind - - the ends of both Cells would be that close - and more once i put the rubber caps on them like BM did for safely etc, - any wires would have to be between this space - i dont see that working out - Chair Wire - - battery to battery wire and then the Charge balance wires - -

this is just a made up cardboard box of the battery try - so i seen they can fit side by side this way - but no room on top and the sides maybe 3 mm one side only -

[expresso]

From looking at the chair from this angle - it looks as if theres room - as you get closer to check - it looks different - i have more pics of the space inside the top posts -

[Burgerman]

this is 6 high - you can see its a little bit over the top of the post - seems like nothing - but there would be no room for nothing at all on top of the pack if done - and would have to be forced in the chair - it would be scraped the divider thats over the batteries - i get to that in the later pics

It will fit. 6mm is enough for power cables. And the balance wires are tiny, 2mm. They can go together, if you worry you should put 1mm plastic sheet in between packs. I knew all this before this thread started! And still you are measuring and worrying!

[expresso]

These look as if its good - but even though it looks like its fine - i have to wedge that in there to make it fit - 6 high - so really no room on top at all once you make the pack -

[expresso]

i Feel its going to be sooo hard to make it fit with the wires - and i may not get it done - and then stuck with 72 Cells - that i dont want to do -

here is another angle - this is the correct size - the other pictures i had to wedge it in to make it stand up - once that way 6 high - Cant move it

[expresso]

this is the space max i will have to do any wiring - only on one side - - since the chair cable is on the left side - i would leave the space for that side for cables - -

but i would need a thick cable for the chair connection - - the balance wires i want to make it like you did - one cable loom with charge and balance in one - if i can do that - that dosnt look too easy -

Ok those were all the good pictures in terms of maybe it can work - maybe - and what i mean - is maybe it can work with me doing it my helper etc, - big maybe - if you were in my house doing it - i am sure you will make it work one way or another - but it will be me and my helper only - and you guys here - which are great and can guide me - but actually doing it - is another story too -

now the next set after these - you will see how tight it really is

[expresso]

these two pics are the battery in the rear - very very close - to the divider - with the rubber on top of it - its stuck - have to force it in -

[expresso]

these two - first one is a side picture - showing the post of the battery in the front - its already scraping the divider thats there -

the other picture shows the front under the chair - she has a finger on it - thats the divider thats over the batteries and the controller is behind that front plastic part - you can see the screw thats holding it to the divider - that covers the controller in the front - the controller is sandwiched between that and the batteries -

[Burgerman]

But it will go? If so don't worry.

What is that plate, can it be removed? What is it made of? Is there a battery tray? Can it be removed or have the bottom removed? If that plate is metal, its not safe to have lead battery terminals that close to it unprotected.

[expresso]

heres another view of the front cover for the controller - and that screw you see is on both ends - holding the divider over the batteries and the

top of the from - keep; the elements out -


any two more - i saved the best ones for last

[expresso]

this is the front battery - look at the posts - very hard time to pull the tray out and back as it is - the pictures dont lie -

[Burgerman]

Is that metal?

[expresso]

Starts off good as if it can work - and maybe it still can - but very hard -

i am going to try one more time - this time - i am going to take both batteries out - the tray out - and i am going to remove that divider if its only the two front screws holding it - if thats it - maybe i can manage to get that done -

and then i can see a little better if in doing that - would free up the space on top - enough to make it work - and if the controller is not affected by removing it - or if any other wires are not affected if i remove the divider - there are a bunch of wires i believe there for the seat lift - tilt etc, -

and if after that removing - i can see better then - Even if it fits after i remove that divider - i still need to put something back in its place to cover it from the elements - dirt and any thing else that can fall in there - - i think thats the main purpose of having it there and keeping the wiring in its place between it and the battery itself -

that black Anderson connector from my chair - thats a SB75 in Black ? if i ever get that far - i would need the same black version connector -

[Burgerman]

thats a SB75 in Black ? if i ever get that far - i would need the same black version connector -

ebay...

[expresso]

Is that metal?

No i dont think its metal - the divider is a thick plastic sheet - and the front screws hold it in the front to bottom plastic cover which the controller is behind - you see the rear divider has the velcro there to hold it but theres also some wiring up there between - that control the whole seating system - i cant say for sure if removing the divider affects those wires or not - till i do it -

the back of the chair - divider if i remove the velcro - looks like i can gain a little bit of space - not enough for my liking - but i can - the front dosnt bulge - you see how its already scraping the top posts - no room at all there -

now if i remove those screws which hold the divider down and in place - and if just doing that , if i can remove the divider off completely - then i see better - but also the motor for the seat lift is in the rear over that divider - not sure if its on it touching it or just over it -

i would have to replace that with something else after - cant leave it wide open the way -

[expresso]

thats a SB75 in Black ? if i ever get that far - i would need the same black version connector -

ebay...

yes i can do that - but i want to make sure what to get - is it SB75 Black - or SB50 in Black - or dosnt matter as long as its black - it will fit - ?? this is some time before i do this - i still have to make sure which size pack can fit with the way the chair is set up -

you can see the pictures - so i think you understand now why i am so worried and dont want to rush with 72 and then i cant get it to work - that i dont want to do - not goin to make the same mistake twice - i learned the first time -

[expresso]

But it will go? If so don't worry.

What is that plate, can it be removed? What is it made of? Is there a battery tray? Can it be removed or have the bottom removed? If that plate is metal, its not safe to have lead battery terminals that close to it unprotected.

its plastic - thick sheet acting as a divider and cover - i dont think it has to be there other than safely - nothing can fall in there etc, - dirt - etc, -

this is empty - yes - tray can be removed - i have a open bottom mostly - so need to lay a sheet of something there - this is an older pic - so i want thinking of this then and didnt measure with the blocks - i didnt even have them -

my mind was on the ADD ON only at the time - and still is - but exploring if i can do this also - - and to be 100% sure now - i will take it apart again this way - and remove the divider - looks to be only two front screws and the velcro

and then do it over checking with the blocks - i will try to do it over on friday if works out for everyone

[expresso]

Oh ok - thanks for that - i didnt order yet -

you know what - i will just order the normal 2 hole buss bars - i have 19 - i need 24 ? i can order a few extra also - and a few orange blocks for the 15Ah Cell - i want to check my box with those just to double check - i will post pics later - i checked my chair last night -

I would get the square bus bars. The link I gave you was for the 12Ah cells. According to the website they are made by Headway in nickel coated steel. Headway discontinued making the nickel coated copper bus bars.

Here is how to assemble the orange blocks. For the top of the add-on battery, the outside rows are vertical in the picture while the 6 inner blocks are horizontal. We will use 3 square bus bars in the inner 6 blocks and 2 single bus bars on the outside 2 rows.

Top.jpg

The bottom has all 8 blocks horizontal making 4 openings for 4 square bus bars.


Ok thanks for the pictures - i can see how its easier with the 4 hole buss bars - once the cells in the correct order of course - - i will place the order and hopefully have everything i need by next weekend - which means i can start this in the last week of Jan - -

at the same time i am still looking into the whole chair pack - thats scary for me but i want to do it - i guess this is my new hobby - if i do - i have to get a charger now - psu and cables etc, to start learning - if i decide to do the chair -

you think i can be done by June this year ? giving i start in March ? i dont think i have the Cells etc before then - if i decide soon - which way to go 72 or 58 15ah - that just sounds so nice and much easier but well see - i want to be able to say i tried everything that i could have done - before going to the 58 cells -

Bottom.jpg

[Scollard]

Ok thanks for the pictures - i can see how its easier with the 4 hole buss bars - once the cells in the correct order of course - - i will place the order and hopefully have everything i need by next weekend - which means i can start this in the last week of Jan - -

at the same time i am still looking into the whole chair pack - thats scary for me but i want to do it - i guess this is my new hobby - if i do - i have to get a charger now - psu and cables etc, to start learning - if i decide to do the chair -

you think i can be done by June this year ? giving i start in March ? i dont think i have the Cells etc before then - if i decide soon - which way to go 72 or 58 15ah - that just sounds so nice and much easier but well see - i want to be able to say i tried everything that i could have done - before going to the 58 cells -

OK. So now we start thinking outside the box. The battery box is 240mm tall, maybe a shade under. So you can build the 90Ah 6x8 pack and it fits no problem. But there is room to fit another 8 cells flat on top of that pack. That will make a 7p8s pack with 105Ah. Now you also have a 24Ah add-on pack. You can't use both chairs at once. So when you're looking to go out for a night on the town, you can add that additional 24Ah (or 36 if you decide to add a 3rd row), to the chair for an additional boost. The will give you 129Ah or 141Ah. Now that's an enormous boost in capacity and should make BM happy we were thinking outside the box, as it were.

[Burgerman]

Yes. You wont burn through all that Ah easily. Trust me. You will wear out first.

[expresso]

Scollard - i dont see what everyone is seeing how to fit all these cells - but i am willing to check my chair again - remove everything and the divider to see what i can do then - and how -

i though about that - The ADD on connected to the full chair - i was thinking in keep one chair with the ADD on and the other a full unit - i should be more than fine with that - to be honest - i may be even just fine with the ADD on - if i add another roll - in that event - i can just use the ADD on each chair as i use them - if i wanted to change it up - that seems the easiest to me at the moment -

but if a full chair is done - i would leave it that way - and leave the ADD on the other - with the full chair - i may not even use all the 90ah pack if i did that - that would be about double the range i have now - better power etc,

with the 108ah - if i can do it - its about 2.5 x ? i still be very very good with 90ah - setup compared to now - i am going to check the chair again - i really want to make sure and see it myself to say OK yes i can try it or too hard for me to get it done even if its possiable - i am sure you guys can make it work - i just cant get involved if i have to cut or move things around too much -

i dont see how having the 90ah pack and then adding another 8 cells on top - how would that be arranged or connected etc, - the pack would be standing up - the cells on top would have to be laying down ?

if i can picture that correctly - but at least i am moving along - slowly but surely

[Scollard]

i dont see how having the 90ah pack and then adding another 8 cells on top - how would that be arranged or connected etc, - the pack would be standing up - the cells on top would have to be laying down ?

if i can picture that correctly - but at least i am moving along - slowly but surely

Yes. Exactly. The height of the 15Ah cells in the blocks is 186mm the width of a single 15Ah cell in its block is 43mm. Add that up and you get 229mm. Your MK battery is maximum 235mm although the spec for group 24 calls for 240mm clearance. Either way, 229 is less than 235. Therefore it fits, no problem. you even have room to make the connections above the 6x8 pack and in front of the 1x8 horizontal pack. Plus you run a connection outside the chair so you can add the add-on pack for those extra long outings.

[expresso]

i dont see how having the 90ah pack and then adding another 8 cells on top - how would that be arranged or connected etc, - the pack would be standing up - the cells on top would have to be laying down ?

if i can picture that correctly - but at least i am moving along - slowly but surely

Yes. Exactly. The height of the 15Ah cells in the blocks is 186mm the width of a single 15Ah cell in its block is 43mm. Add that up and you get 229mm. Your MK battery is maximum 235mm although the spec for group 24 calls for 240mm clearance. Either way, 229 is less than 235. Therefore it fits, no problem. you even have room to make the connections above the 6x8 pack and in front of the 1x8 horizontal pack. Plus you run a connection outside the chair so you can add the add-on pack for those extra long outings.

So many other options now - making me think - but i still have to clear my mind and see it again that it can fit - you seen the pictures i posted - you see how tight it is - i have to take it apart again - and really check it again without that divider if i can remove it - unless its really needed for something i can see yet - and i still have to replace it with something else -

but thinking of how a 6 x 8 pack look - which i like - one flat square pack - fits in the tray i have already - but how does the 8 more 15ah cells sit on top - ? how would it clip together or does it have to sit there loose and tapped down ?

the connections for the 8 Cells on top of the whole pack - that would have to be connected with wires - not buss bars ? if i am correct in this vision i see - if i can see something like that - i may feel better that way instead of the 72 cell way -
seems like it would be easier to do with the wiring that way - -

what kind of cable would i need to use for the ADD on pack if i made the whole chair pack - another balance - charge cable in one ? or just two wires with SB50 end like i have now ? alot of info. for me to process but sounds great -

if i get 105ah pack in there - very close to the 108ah - that shoulnt make a difference - i dont think i be out that long at once shot - but then i may be able to make it to the Bronx and Back in one charge that way - i wouldnt mind having the ADD on if i ever take that trip -

i think i can make that trip with the 105ah pack - maybe even the 90ah pack - but will be close - i am guessing i need about 30 miles to make it there and back - but if i ride around a bit - maybe another few miles added to 30 -

with Lead - i was about 60 blocks away - or 70 not sure now - i turned back and made it home fine - that was about 15 miles - so i know i could have made it there - but just not back for sure - of if 15 miles one way - 30 should be good -

i may carry the charger anyway if i ever get the itch for that trip - or like everyone tells me - Take the bus one way to the end of the City - - then cross over in the bronx and should be fine - that can work also - i just wanted to test how far i can do with the chair alone - its summer time - why not ride it i was alone - my riding friends dont like to ride much haha -

[Scollard]

Expresso, you should probably go with the 90Ah pack and plan on using the add-on pack when you really want to go far. You can easily add 24 or 36Ah with just a single Anderson connector. That seems to be your comfort range.

You would treat them as separate batteries for charging. The add-on pack has a BMS already so just charge it like you would normally. For the full battery pack we will use a combo Sub-D to connect to the PL8 for charging. We will have a separate cable with an Anderson connector to connect to the chair. We will build a parallel adapter into the Anderson connector that connects to the chair and that will allow you to plug in the add-on battery when you want to use it.

I don't think Anderson connectors are color coded. I'm using red SB50s, and I've also seen them in grey and black. If the chair connector is an SB75 then you will have to get an SB75. Is the Add-on pack going to have SB50 connectors?

[expresso]

Expresso, you should probably go with the 90Ah pack and plan on using the add-on pack when you really want to go far. You can easily add 24 or 36Ah with just a single Anderson connector. That seems to be your comfort range.

You would treat them as separate batteries for charging. The add-on pack has a BMS already so just charge it like you would normally. For the full battery pack we will use a combo Sub-D to connect to the PL8 for charging. We will have a separate cable with an Anderson connector to connect to the chair. We will build a parallel adapter into the Anderson connector that connects to the chair and that will allow you to plug in the add-on battery when you want to use it.

I don't think Anderson connectors are color coded. I'm using red SB50s, and I've also seen them in grey and black. If the chair connector is an SB75 then you will have to get an SB75. Is the Add-on pack going to have SB50 connectors?

Now this sounds nice - i am starting to feel better about it - - the ADD on Pack now will have the BMS - and has sb50 grey on it - because my chair cable is the same already and charger etc, -

i think i read that the color can only connect to the same color - i always seen the SB50 in colors - which is fine i think with those - but i think my chair is Black and i think its SB75 - not sure how to check - but will look better at it when i check it again and take picture

sorry i posted an response to you - in the other section - about this - same response i wrote i think - i was asking these questions -

So i vision this - i can try for the 56 Cells - if not - 90Ah version - - then adding the cable to use the ADD on if wanted or needed - - to charge the ADD on - i would disconnect it from the chair pack - charge it with my normal charger - SB50 end etc

the Chair would charge with the PL8 once the cables are made etc, for that - and then connect them again when i want to use it together - -

not a bad idea - well now i see many different ways - i feel a little better about it - i would still have to figure out the PL8 - PSU to get etc, -

thanks alot for all this input and williness to help; me get it done - its going to be a process not as fast as you guys can do it - i have many factors to factor in -
but i can see it being done

[LROBBINS]

If you would like a pdf of the Anderson catalog, drop me a PM with your e-mail address - it's >12Mb so can't be attached here.

There is no such thing as an SB75. There is a PowerPole PP75 but that's a completely different design. There's also an SBS 75 that is similar to the SB series but is "finger protected", and there are other series (SBX, SBE, SBO) with, for example, auxiliary contacts. (Rather hard to find if you're not ordering in OEM quantities.) The SB50 comes in multiple colors and for the most part different colors will not plug into each other. There are exceptions, however; if I recall correctly grey and red will interconnect, but caution my memory is very fallible. So, your black Anderson is most likely a black SB50. The contact pins are identical no matter the color (and also the same in the PP75), so you can also pop them out and change the shell if you wish.

Ciao,
Lenny