WheelchairDriver

by **shirley_hkg** » 23 Feb 2016, 05:44

Burgerman wrote:steves1977uk, you are supposed to have all the parallel ones linked with a bar. And only need each series sets linked with one bar. As it is, any difference in cell resistance will mean a different voltage per cell under load, and those thin balance wires will be trying to balance a x amp load... That's probably why it never looks very balanced as you charge.

BM, you are really paying attention.

That is not a proper setup.

You should do parallel connection first, then in series.

by **Scollard** » 23 Feb 2016, 07:34

This is a classic case of not ordering enough busbars and just trying to make due. That tiny red wire is the parallel connection and is much too small to be used in that way. The balance wire is actually a much larger wire that you can see on the top row of cells.

by **Burgerman** » 23 Feb 2016, 10:01

All the horizontal ones need to be vertical. Only 3 need to be horizontal in that picture to give the series connections.

It needs more bus bars too.

by **steves1977uk** » 23 Feb 2016, 11:50

Burgerman wrote:steves1977uk, you are supposed to have all the parallel ones linked with a bar. And only need each series sets linked with one bar. As it is, any difference in cell resistance will mean a different voltage per cell under load, and those thin balance wires will be trying to balance a x amp load... That's probably why it never looks very balanced as you charge.

Yes, that would explain why it takes a while to balance. As I understand it from what shirley said, it needs to be parallel first and then series? I do have more 2-hole buss bars, but was unsure where they'd go. I should be getting this pack rewired with thicker balancing wires, as I believe the engineer only used the wires from the OBD cable that I use for the balancing plug.

Scollard, can you show both sides of your built pack please? Then I can show the engineer how it's supposed to be built.

Thanks,

Steve

by **steves1977uk** » 23 Feb 2016, 12:01

expresso wrote:Steve - you had a fuse on both pos and neg wire ? what amp fuse did you use - why both wires ? why add a fuse if the chair has a fuse also - ?

besides the fuse on the charge cables -

I used a 150 amp fuse as this chair never had one when it was used with lead batteries. The only sort of fuse it had was a 2 pin plug that is moulded in bakelite material, and that was prone to keep falling out unless the pins were bent inwards slightly to give a tighter fit.

Steve

by **Burgerman** » 23 Feb 2016, 12:41

It should be connected the same as both end parallel blocks are.
So you have rows of vertical bus bars. Then you just need one horizontal one in the middle, that goes where you have 5 now...

Then you can get rid of all of the thin red interconnecting wires.

To save time, you could just add a connector in every place you now have a thin red wire now instead. Both top and bottom.

by **shirley_hkg** » 23 Feb 2016, 14:57

Steve , ring terminals may have better quality than those connectors.

All it need is a thicker wire ; 12AWG /1.5mm square etc.

646-SE has a 100A CIRCUIT BREAKER . Too large a fuse means no protection. :cry:

by **Burgerman** » 23 Feb 2016, 15:27

Shirley, the charger and balance circuits he is using will see and try to balance a 0.001mV difference, and slow down charge etc to be sure it does this. Thin cables like 1.5mm2 are inadeqate to hold all cells in a parallel block to exactly this small margin. You need the bus bars, or some thicker cables than that. Or under charge or discharge the variable cell impedance will drag the voltrages on individual cells around.

So a 1.5mm2 cable might be OK on a low accuracy BMS but is not inadequate on a decent charger. It also means that if say 1 cell fails or goes very high resistance, those small wires will see a huge Amp load when you charge or drive the chair and melt.

by **expresso** » 23 Feb 2016, 19:57

@ BM - Ok here is the First Charge with your 150ah preset

i am curious - i took a snapshot when done - says 100%

i left it connected - its still connected now - but short while it says 99% done - you see it on the second snapshot -

and now i am watching it - goin to 98% done back and forth to 99% -

is this Correct ? i am about to remove them and start another 10 Cells

by **Burgerman** » 23 Feb 2016, 20:03

As I said, many times, you cannot tell state of charge by voltage. Ignore it.

@ BM - Ok here is the First Charge with your 150ah preset

I said to alter the 1S preset for charging 1S sets of cells!
Presumably this is 10 in parallel? You must read and give details.

Those are full, and a fraction under 2Ah added.
Do the next set.

EDIT This IS the 1S preset... You said it was the 150-Ah preset. But it says LiFe on it... So this is the correct preset. Dont mix them up!

by **expresso** » 23 Feb 2016, 20:48

yes thanks - its life - 1s 150ah first charge preset -

just started next 10 Cells - i love the software on computer to watch etc - with out you dont know whats going on -

by **Scollard** » 23 Feb 2016, 21:05

expresso wrote:yes thanks - its life - 1s 150ah first charge preset -

just started next 10 Cells - i love the software on computer to watch etc - with out you dont know whats going on -

Yes, just what we've been telling you all along.

by **Scollard** » 23 Feb 2016, 21:06

steves1977uk wrote:
Scollard, can you show both sides of your built pack please? Then I can show the engineer how it's supposed to be built.

Thanks,

Steve

Front:

Back:

by **expresso** » 23 Feb 2016, 21:18

When i added the presest you made -

the first preset i put for charging ONE Cell only

2nd preset is for the ADD ON

3rd. preset is for the Whole pack when done - will be either 90ah or 105ah - will shoot for 105ah

4th preset is for 10 Cells in a Roll - 105ah - first charge - 10P 1S

by **Scollard** » 23 Feb 2016, 21:22

expresso wrote:When i added the presest you made -

the first preset i put for charging ONE Cell only

2nd preset is for the ADD ON

3rd. preset is for the Whole pack when done - will be either 90ah or 105ah - will shoot for 105ah

4th preset is for 10 Cells in a Roll - 105ah - first charge - 10P 1S

You mean 150Ah for the 4th preset. And it had a 200mA termination current, Correct?

by **Burgerman** » 23 Feb 2016, 21:30

I didnt remember doing a 4th!

Yes. It was afterwards wasnt it?

Yes that will do it.

by **steves1977uk** » 23 Feb 2016, 22:36

Scollard wrote:
steves1977uk wrote:
Scollard, can you show both sides of your built pack please? Then I can show the engineer how it's supposed to be built.

Thanks,

Steve

Front:

Buttoned up.jpg

Back:

Backside.jpg

Thanks for that Scollard, most helpful

Steve

by **expresso** » 24 Feb 2016, 00:35

Scollard wrote:
expresso wrote:When i added the presest you made -

the first preset i put for charging ONE Cell only

2nd preset is for the ADD ON

3rd. preset is for the Whole pack when done - will be either 90ah or 105ah - will shoot for 105ah

4th preset is for 10 Cells in a Roll - 105ah - first charge - 10P 1S

You mean 150Ah for the 4th preset. And it had a 200mA termination current, Correct?

Yes - i have 4 presets made by BM - one of them is for the 150ah and 200mA Termination - i am using this preset to charge up 10 at a time - at the end - tomorrow morning i will finish it up -

the last 8 Cells - i will use the same preset but change the current from 200mA to 160mA - i would be done after that - store for 6 weeks -

i am liking this so far -

by **expresso** » 24 Feb 2016, 00:40

Burgerman wrote:I didnt remember doing a 4th!

Yes. It was afterwards wasnt it?

Yes that will do it.

Thanks Again for the presets - so far so good - and yes you made me 4 of them - i dont remember in what order i added them to the PL8 - but i have 4 all together -

i think tomorrow is my last delivery for all the parts i will need - etc, to finish up the whole job - my Cart is so full - i have to organize that also -

the only graphs i am able to see and save etc, is the one posted before - is that all there is - or does it have others besides just the line graph ?

by **Burgerman** » 24 Feb 2016, 01:06

You can save and export all the data and the graphs, as a data file. And reopen it again with the same software.
Or export that to all to excell as a numerical file with mountains of data.
Or save just an image of the cell voltage/time, pack voltage/time, charge Amps/time, resistance/time, power supply voltage off load and on load voltage/time, capacity returned/time, And the last 2 fuel or Fallback over time are for Cadmium based packs.

And the same with discharge...

You can also import and export and save presets, and also the options and options settings.

You can also export or save all your preset settings at once, or import them. Or do so individually. And there are more presets in the folder that has the extra folders full of presets... I will leave you to find that!

by **steves1977uk** » 24 Feb 2016, 01:23

The PL8 is an excellent piece of kit, just a pity it wasn't so restrictive! I also have a Hyperion 1420i which I've never used, keeping that as a backup.

Steve

by **expresso** » 24 Feb 2016, 01:26

So much - the only way i figured out so far is the pictures i posted of the graph etc, - thats it -

lets say i start a charge - i go to view and save graph etc, - thats it - but how do i get all the details besides just the line graph i got today

by **expresso** » 24 Feb 2016, 01:29

steves1977uk wrote:The PL8 is an excellent piece of kit, just a pity it wasn't so restrictive! I also have a Hyperion 1420i which I've never used, keeping that as a backup.

Steve

yes so far i love the PL 8 - i like using it on the computer to view etc, - if i had to use the charger for everything - and not have a pc hookup - i may not like it as much -

glad thats not the case and i can do everything on the computer to control it -

by **steves1977uk** » 24 Feb 2016, 01:34

Did you save the data at the end of the charge expresso? You can re-open the saved ones anytime when you're not charging and view all the details of your previous ones and compare

Steve

by **expresso** » 24 Feb 2016, 02:32

dont think so - thats what i have to figure out how to save the data - i saved the graph thinking that was it -

dont think i have any data saved so far - will try it tomorrow to save data thats what i wanted to do - save data - graph etc

by **steves1977uk** » 24 Feb 2016, 17:42

expresso, when you view the graph, if you click on view in the menu bar, you'll see Amps vs Time, Cell Volts vs Time, etc... This will give you more info about your cells.

Steve

by **expresso** » 24 Feb 2016, 17:51

Yes i see that Steve - but i really dont see data like numbers etc, - maybe you dont when you charge just one large Cell - 1S pack ?

by **steves1977uk** » 24 Feb 2016, 18:06

you should see something like this when you export the graph data to a text file... An example...

Code: Select all: DateTime SlaveNum Cycle Mode SupplyVolts LSupplyVolts SupplyAmps PWM SecTimer AvgCellVolts MaxCellVolts AvgIR FallBackVolts CVStarted SlowAmps AvgAmps FastAmps SetAmps AhrIN AhrOUT PackVolts AvgPackVolts Fuel1 SumError Cell1Volts Cell2Volts Cell3Volts Cell4Volts Cell5Volts Cell6Volts Cell7Volts Cell8Volts Cell9Volts Cell10Volts Cell11Volts Cell12Volts Cell13Volts Cell14Volts Cell15Volts Cell16Volts Cell1IR Cell2IR Cell3IR Cell4IR Cell5IR Cell6IR Cell7IR Cell8IR Cell9IR Cell10IR Cell11IR Cell12IR Cell13IR Cell14IR Cell15IR Cell16IR BP1PWM BP2PWM BP3PWM BP4PWM BP5PWM BP6PWM BP7PWM BP8PWM BP9PWM BP10PWM BP11PWM BP12PWM BP13PWM BP14PWM BP15PWM BP16PWM Debug1 Debug2 Debug3 24/02/2016 13:08:58 0 0 6 24.53 24.68 0 8798 10 3.313 3.3171 0 0 False 0 0 -0.01166667 15 0 0 26.502 26.502 28 0.023 3.313 3.313 3.313 3.313 3.313 3.313 3.313 3.313 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 24/02/2016 13:09:00 0 0 6 24.53 24.68 0 8798 10 3.313 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24.67 24.44 18.2 9254 328 3.393 3.3971 0.9 0 False 14.99333 14.99667 14.90333 15 1.2061 0 27.155 27.156 83.3 0.011 3.393 3.393 3.393 3.393 3.393 3.393 3.393 3.393 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.9 1.1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 72 288 0 24/02/2016 13:14:30 0 0 6 24.66 24.44 18.2 9256 338 3.394 3.3971 0.8 0 False 14.98833 14.99167 15.07667 15 1.2478 0 27.167 27.158 83.3 0.011 3.394 3.394 3.394 3.394 3.394 3.394 3.394 3.394 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.9 1.1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 72 288 0 24/02/2016 13:14:40 0 0 6 24.67 24.44 18.2 9254 348 3.394 3.3971 0.9 0 False 14.99167 14.98667 14.845 15 1.2895 0 27.155 27.161 83.3 0.011 3.394 3.394 3.394 3.394 3.394 3.394 3.394 3.394 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.9 1.1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 72 288 0 24/02/2016 13:14:50 0 0 6 24.67 24.44 18.1 9254 358 3.394 3.3972 0.8 0 False 14.975 14.97667 15.07667 15 1.3313 0 27.155 27.164 83.3 0.011 3.394 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Steve

by **Burgerman** » 24 Feb 2016, 19:17

You will see data only for 1 cell however so no cell balance data and only 1/8th as much...

by **expresso** » 24 Feb 2016, 19:22

Ok - is that it - ?

how do i export it to Excel spreedsheet - - i seen that text file - but seems like a bunch of stuff - cant make it out whats what -

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