PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

[Burgerman]

Using the dual 12V/24V charging set up shown in images A,B & C above, how the heck do you cram all that wiring into your battery compartment? Can the wiring loom be up so you can easily pull out the batteries without having to do a lot of disconnect work? My TDX -SP battery compartment would be very tight when it comes to installing the LiFePo battery shown above. I wonder about the practicality of routing all that wiring.

Its easy. Never even occurred it was supposed to be difficult!

As for 'setting up for easy removal' well not really. Unplugging a couple of Anderson connectors on loose cables IS easy?

And I never removed one once fitted yet! The first one is in a friends off road 'tramper' scooter. Must be 6 years old. Used for horse events whatever they are over weekends, and his dog walking. Still got the same Ah as it started with. http://www.tramper.co.uk/tramper_brochure.pdf They have 70Ah lead batteries as they come. Soon run out off road in an hour.

[JoeP]

Spent the day doing cable layout on the LiFePo drawing. I'm figuring 6ga cable is no bigger than 1/4" in diameter. Probably more like 3/16".

[Burgerman]

No idea about funny US sizes. 10sq/mm stuff is about 6.5mm or a fraction more I think.

[Gnomatic]

Spent the day doing cable layout on the LiFePo drawing. I'm figuring 6ga cable is no bigger than 1/4" in diameter. Probably more like 3/16".

http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/wire_calc.aspx

[JoeP]

Spent the day doing cable layout on the LiFePo drawing. I'm figuring 6ga cable is no bigger than 1/4" in diameter. Probably more like 3/16".

http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/wire_calc.aspx

Thanks Gno

[expresso]

BM - I think i finally found a trip i will be taking before summer is over in a few weeks - this will use my whole 105 ah pack easy - in in NJ - riding along the Palasidies parkway on the NJ side - my Doc. told me about it and i went for test ride to see where it starts - - now i know where to go for the real trip -

it took 28 miles and i didnt start to ride along this waterfront parkway - i have to finally put the ADD ON to use on the full chair - giving me 140ah -

would you be able to tell me more or less - how many miles can i do with the full 105ah plus 36ah ADD ON ? i dont want to run of juice - i can do easy 40 miles on the 105ah -

what should be my cut off point so i dont over do it and drain them too low ?

also when i connect the ADD ON to the full chair - should give me 140ah - can the PL 8 tell me this to confirm that its all connected and see it as a 140ah pack ?

i just want to be sure its active and working once connected - it should be - i checked the volts on the cable end of my full chair - its fine - the ADD ON is fine - once connected should be fine i am sure - but if i can confirm this with the PL 8 - i would feel better
once ADD on is connected - then connect the ADD on to the PL 8 -

how can i get it to show me how large a pack i have in there etc, - is there a way for me to know for sure its all connected - working as one large 140ah pack ?

would be my first time adding the ADD ON to the full pack chair - didnt think i would be able to use it up - glad i made it a 105ah pack instead of the 90ah i was going to do at the start -

thanks

[Burgerman]

Look at it like this. You did 40 miles safely on 105Ah.
Thats 2.625 Ah per mile. With a small reserve left over.
So add 36 to 105 = 141Ah. So divide this by the 2.625 and you get 53.71 miles with a small bit left.

If both packs are charged the PL8 wont know if both are connected or one...

[expresso]

Ok so i can safely do 53 miles and should be home at 53 mile mark to be safe

which means 25 miles one way is my limit more or less

i was hoping the PL 8 would be able to tell me how large a pack is connected to it somehow - but i guess not -

[Burgerman]

Well it is if you want a sensible reserve remaining.

If you drive in straight lines at constant speed, no swerving about, no shuffling left right, and go first thing without driving about your house eating power, you may get another 5 miles and still have a reserve.

i was hoping the PL 8 would be able to tell me how large a pack is connected to it somehow - but i guess not -

Can only see volts. Set it to monitor, and then plug ADDON in. If both batteries are slightly different, you should see a small voltage change. A few mV.

[expresso]

ok i dont use my outdoor chairs indoors - so its charged and left alone till i use it again next day and usually go out and start the journey

do you mean - connect the ADD On alone to the PL 8 - monitor - then attach ADD ON to the Chair full pack - connect again to PL 8 and monitor again ?

i am looking for Volts changes between the two ?

[shirley_hkg]

Only connect two batteries together , with identical voltage .

Bring them up to full individually , and connect them together.

[expresso]

;) Only connect two batteries together , with identical voltage .

Bring them up to full individually , and connect them together.

Ok i will charge the ADD ON pack alone first - then charge the full pack chair - and connect them both - leave it over night for the next day trip

what if i connect the ADD on and then charge the whole thing both connected ? not good ?


not sure when i will try it - have to see the weather - and a good day for me - since i have to get up extra early for this - will take alot of time - and before it gets cold
temps are dropping after next week -

i figure i should get up and going by 10 am the latest - takes me a good 90 mins to reach the bridge - cross over in NJ - then a few more miles to the area i will ride along the water on the NJ side - how far it goes - not sure what to expect - i went for a few mins - no where to ride but the road street - its seems pretty dead with traffic so thats good - if i find where the bikes ride i can follow that - but it seems like its the road also - i havnt seen any today and two cars only

if all goes well should be back by 5 pm before dark and will be watching my miles - 25 mile is my limit one way with the ADD ON -

i think after i do this just for the record to see what it can do with the 140ah - maybe in some future trips back to same area for next summer - may just take the bus up to the bridge first - not to save battery - but to give my hand a rest holding the joystick forward for so long - gets tired

[shirley_hkg]

It is pretty fast already , if you made an AVERAGE SPEED OF 10KPH .

Go and break my record . m

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5380&start=300

[Burgerman]

You cant charge both together without a Y lead for balancing them both at the same time. And I wouldn't. Charge both full separately, then connect.

[expresso]

:lol: It is pretty fast already , if you made an AVERAGE SPEED OF 10KPH .

Go and break my record . m

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5380&start=300

i dont know my avg speed to be honest - chair is rated for 8.5mph - plus the lithium - i should get 9 mph ? the apps i have tried to use are not accurate - they say speeds that are way too high - which my chair cant go that fast -

according to the conversion - your chair is doing about 11 mph - that would be alot faster than me for sure -

i am not sure what your distance traveled is - i am sure you do alot of long range riding there - things there are far apart from each other -

so far my best i did in one trip in one day was 33 mile - - i was just trying to hit the 40 mile mark - but now that i found another location to visit - that will take me to the 40 mile mark and a bit over i am sure - i will see when i try it - all i know is if i hit 25 miles - i will be turning back just to be safe -

this is another reason i am not going to play too much with changing tires on this chair - cant afford a Flat during these trips - i need safe flat proof tires - and the ones this chair 646 are just fine to me in feel - they are not hard - but do wear out very fast now that i use it alot

[expresso]

You cant charge both together without a Y lead for balancing them both at the same time. And I wouldn't. Charge both full separately, then connect.

ah ok - i didnt think of the balancing part - good think i asked - - i will charge the ADD ON alone with the preset you made for me BM - for the ADD ON alone -

charge the Chair alone - and then connect - will do night before -

thanks

[Burgerman]

i dont know my avg speed to be honest - chair is rated for 8.5mph - plus the lithium - i should get 9 mph ? the apps i have tried to use are not accurate - they say speeds that are way too high - which my chair cant go that fast -

That's just because all the tall new York buildings block the satellites. Works fine in the open. But will also still give ACCURATE average speeds over longer distances. Because while position cant be known accurately in new York (not enough sats) its plenty accurate enough to work out distances that are further apart.

Drive a mile in a reasonably straight line and average speed will be super accurate.

[shirley_hkg]

What I mean is you have to stop for water /meal , and you can't go full throttle from start till end .
I haven't beat AVE 10KPH yet , or a lonely long trip otherwise .


Brought this power supply as my dumb charger . Seller converted it to a 0--60V , 0--40A CC/CV adaptation @$65.00 .

I can charge at 40A in complete silence now .

[expresso]

I usually dont have meals when out riding - water maybe - i am used to it in the summer time - winter time i get more hungry in mornings - i do need my daily dose of Espresso - morning and after meals -

i dont have time to take it slow - if i want to make it back home before dark that is - but i will slow it down once i am there this time to take in the view and since i never been in this area - dont want another crash site to add to my first one -

[expresso]

You cant charge both together without a Y lead for balancing them both at the same time. And I wouldn't. Charge both full separately, then connect.

What about this option - lets say i am out - having both the ADD on pack connected to the full chair - 140ah - lets say i need to charge up a bit - with the cables and PL 8 - from a Car -

why cant i not just plug in the cable from the ADD ON and charge both packs together since i am not going to fully charge them till balance point anyway ? for example - you charge 35A - for a hour -i shouldnt reach the balance point so it shouldnt matter ?

the ADD ON is 36ah - so it may reach it sooner than the rest of the pack ? or it spreads it out evenly the charge in which case it wont reach the balance point ? does this make any sense ?

another way i was thinking if this is Ok - instead of making a cable SubD with the balance wires etc, - just make a cable with the SB50 end - plug it in the SB50 to charge up for a hour at 35A - its no where near the balance point and easier to make a SB50 cable with two power wires going to the PL 8 using there own banana ends -

I can make two SB50 cables - this way - i can charge from my chair to another wheelchair if they have a direct SB50 cable on there chair - Connect the PL 8 SB50 to my chair - then PL 8 out to the other chair SB 50 end and do a little charge -

this can come in handy - if my friend does a ADD On pack on his new chair - would give him 25 or 30 miles depending on size of ADD ON - can be useful if ever needed that way -


also - what about this situation -

I am out with the full chair and the ADD on pack also all connected as one - 140ah - now lets say i really did need to charge - and if its best to disconnect the ADD ON from the full chair to charge - which would i charge first or can i just charge the Chair pack - or just the ADD ON pack ? or split the charge time between the two ? 30 min the ADD On - 30 min the chair and then reconnect -

i dont think i be in this situation but never know - i have something extra to do now in the winter - make cables for this kind of scenero - after i fix the main cables on my 105ah pack first -

what do you think BM ?

[Burgerman]

All will work. As long as you dont charge fully. But you will need a non balance preset. Or charge lithium as a lead battery. Because it wants to see the balance wires or it will slap your wrists!

You already have a cable.

[expresso]

All will work. As long as you dont charge fully. But you will need a non balance preset. Or charge lithium as a lead battery. Because it wants to see the balance wires or it will slap your wrists!

You already have a cable.

Ok - no matter what - i would need a preset for Non balance charging - which i can use to just charge at 35A - for one hour - should be good for 12 miles - easy -

this Non Balance preset is needed no matter which way i choose to charge - with the Subd balance wires etc, or the SB50 end with just power cables with no balance wires -

If this ever was needed to charge from my chair to my friends chair - he would have a ADD On with lead on his chairs - thats he plan for his new chair - i can give him my BMS - if he wants to use his own charger etc, - but stronger advised him not to and get the PL 8 setup - what he will do is his choice - i give him his options and pros and cons -

Either way - i would need a Non Balance preset for someone who has only Lead in there chair with the Fast charge cable SB50 End - i can charge that chair from mines also -

I have the Combined preset i use to charge the Lead and ADD ON together at 25A charge rate -

would that work ? Or if you can make me the Non balance preset when you have time - no rush - - what do you think i would need - - one chair may have a ADD ON with lead - - another one may have just lead -

and of course mines which has full lithium and the ADD on - i can use the full lithium preset i use now at 35A in that case ? all together connected - for one hour shouldnt be near the balance point at all - -


one thing i did forget - important - who will connect it and disconnect - will have to hope to run into someone to do it for me -

On the chair i want to take the trip with - i have the cut off in the program set to 22V - is that still fine once i connect the ADD on pack to the full pack ? i just want to make sure if i ride that far 25 miles max one way - that it wont get down to 22V with the 140ah total - ADD on etc,


If using just the Power cables SB50 cable set - no balance wires - its easier to make a longer cable - i can make a 4 foot cable so this way i can keep the PL 8 on my lap to see what i am doing - i can also carry both cable sets - one SubD with balance wires like i use now - and the SB50 cable set for Lead only chairs -

if i make the cable goin to the car battery longer also - 4 foot - would make it easier all around - enough slack to work with -

[expresso]

Or i have to solder longer wire to the balance wire set - that plugs in the PL 8 end - i can cut those wires near the PL 8 and solder one longer wire to make it 4 foot


i see many ways now - depends how much effort i want to put into making a SubD for a purpose i may never use it for -

[Burgerman]

Do one post per question. I am lost!

[expresso]

Do one post per question. I am lost!

yeah sorry about that - i am lost myself now - haha

IF i use the Subd with the balance wires the same cable i have now - i feel its short - so i can make another one that way but would make it longer which means i have to use the 36 inch cable for the balance wires - but cut it and make it longer - thats one way -

but i still would need a Non Balance preset - and make a cable to charge only - no balancing - with SB50 - for the person who has only Lead -

if you can make a Non Balance preset for just charging up my lithium pack 140ah - or 105ah pack - i can use this if i only need a fast one hour charge at 35A - should be fine - if ever needed to do -


ON my chair i have the settings to cut off at 22V - can i still leave it there - once i connect the ADD On pack -

last i remember when i did 40 miles - it shows 25.6 V when i went to recharge - as long as i stay at 50 mile max - should be fine ?


when you get a chance - you can make me a Non balance preset for lithium - and one for Lead - or if i can use the same -

thanks

[Burgerman]

Short posts. ONE question?

What is the preset for EXACTLY?

[expresso]

If i needed to carry the PL 8 and get a quick one hour or two charge if needed from a car etc,

you mentioned that i needed a NON Balancing Preset for that -

for the Lithium Chair with either 105ah - or with the ADD on - 140Ah - - in the event i was out and really need a quick charge from a Car -

[expresso]

if i need a different Preset for charging from my chair to a friends chair which has LEAD -

You made me this one for Lead - i can use this preset for charging a LEAD chair - its at 20A - can i up that to 25A ?

[expresso]

I have the Chair set to cut off at 22V - in the programming settings - is that still fine to leave it there when using the ADD ON also connected to the chair -

i would think so but who knows i may be missing something -

[expresso]

with the cables for this PL 8 - i feel the SubD that i have now which is fine in the home - may be too short outside if i needed -

my options are -

1. make a longer cable using the 36 inch balance cable from the PL 8 - but would have to cut it and solder my own wire to make it longer - i think 4 feet would be fine

and also make the cable end that goes to the car battery - extend that to 4 feet since its only 2 feet - i would try to find a cable already made to connect between the PL 8 and those jumper cables - it may be EC5 male to male -

2. Just make a 4 foot cable for charging with no balance wires and SB50 end - - since i wont be charging to full anyway - using the banana wires for the PL 8 and extend those wires to 4 foot with SB50 end -

i guess best to make both and carry both of them anyway -