PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Power wheelchair board for REAL info!

POWERCHAIR MENU! www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerchair-stuff.htm

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby brianpile1 » 23 Jan 2017, 14:13

I will check what he knows. I will order all the components myself. I will print out the relevant instructions from the website, and make sure he understands what needs to be done. Does anyone else have experience or using an auto electrician to do the work for them?
\
Brian
brianpile1
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 06 May 2010, 16:55
Location: Leicester, UK

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby steves1977uk » 23 Jan 2017, 14:26

I used an Ex-RAF serviceman to help me build my pack, there are one or two issues that still need to be resolved (rewiring to use a single connector and re-do the layout of the buss-bars). Overall the pack charges ok once the PL8 is set up properly.

Steve
User avatar
steves1977uk
 
Posts: 4395
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 21:47
Location: Wells next the Sea, Norfolk, UK

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 23 Jan 2017, 17:36

brianpile1 wrote:I will check what he knows. I will order all the components myself. I will print out the relevant instructions from the website, and make sure he understands what needs to be done. Does anyone else have experience or using an auto electrician to do the work for them?
\
Brian



Maybe you should just order a few cells to make a ADD ON pack at first and learn from that - before going all in to do the full chair pack - its not cheap and you dont want to waste money and time and not get it done -

you can practice soldering and making the cable etc, - make a list of all the parts you will need - but first read and try to get a little understanding of what your doing and why - dont worry if you dont understand everything - you ask here and the other guys will guide you -

i started the same way as you - i did the ADD ON first just to understand it and it took a while to get that right - about 4 times taking it apart and redoing each time better than the previous - till i was satisfied and left it alone since -

its not easy but not too hard that it cant be done - one step at a time - and be careful when building the pack - make sure you have someone there with you -
Quickie 636 - 230ah LifePo4
expresso
 
Posts: 11985
Joined: 10 May 2010, 03:17

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Gnomatic » 23 Jan 2017, 21:23

brianpile1 wrote:I will check what he knows. I will order all the components myself. I will print out the relevant instructions from the website, and make sure he understands what needs to be done. Does anyone else have experience or using an auto electrician to do the work for them?
\
Brian


I think the point everyone is trying to make is, for your lithium conversion to be a success, YOU need to be the one with the knowledge of how Lithium packs work. You need to be the one who understands how your pack needs put together and wired up. You need to be the one who understands the process start to finish for your project to be a success.

It is a LOT to learn if you don't have any background in this stuff. But you CAN learn it. Read every page of this thread. Don't be afraid to ask questions as you're taking this all in. The only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask.

Its OK if you need assistance with the physical work. So in that regard, an auto electrician could make for a good assistant.

Knowledge is power. Embrace that!
Gnomatic
 
Posts: 2122
Joined: 24 Aug 2012, 17:18
Location: Ohio USA

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jan 2017, 21:29

And check everything twice. And check again. Theres a thread here somewhere where a user had one built. Its now all took apart with half the cells dead and ruined because it wasn't assembled with enough care or understanding. Theres no shortcuts unless you like failure and expense.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 69892
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Gnomatic » 23 Jan 2017, 21:42

Burgerman wrote:Theres a thread here somewhere where a user had one built. Its now all took apart with half the cells dead and ruined because it wasn't assembled with enough care or understanding.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6548
Gnomatic
 
Posts: 2122
Joined: 24 Aug 2012, 17:18
Location: Ohio USA

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby ex-Gooserider » 24 Jan 2017, 02:17

I may be mis-reading, but I think that the two of you may be talking about different parts of the process... Remember the cells get charged TWICE - once initially to get them to 'full' and then after sitting a few months a 'top-up' to see how much they lost in self discharge....

My reading of the docs was that the initial charge could be done in parallel with any number of cells, and they DID soak until fully charged (which may be when the charger says full - not sure if the current termination point changes with more cells or not...)

The cells then set for extended time,

Then they get the top up which should be done one cell at a time in order to see how much each lost.

If I'm not understanding this, let me know...

ex-Gooserider


Gnomatic wrote:
Burgerman wrote:
If I can do batches of 10, letting them 'soak' on the charger for a couple hrs when finished, I can probably get through them in a couple days, three tops.


They dont soak. Done is done when it says done! Thats when current falls to termination point on the PL8.


I didn't realize that. I was going by what you posted on the first page of this thread when discussing self discharge testing

..... charge every single cell to 3.600 volts, and leave on charge afterwards for 2 hours minimum to soak. You can do this in parallel in big groups of say 10 at a time.
T-5, ASIA-B
Jazzy 1100
Jazzy Select 6
Quickie Q-7
Invacare Mariner
Want to make / get a better chair, ideally one that stands.
User avatar
ex-Gooserider
 
Posts: 6197
Joined: 15 Feb 2011, 06:17
Location: Billerica, MA. USA

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby flagman1776 » 24 Jan 2017, 02:29

I think you may be refering to my recent thread Lost & Found viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6600 where the cells for 2 packs were never finished assembled. 8 were in a partially built "mock up" & the remaining 8 were not assembled at all. None of the cells were charged during the time they were "LOST". 9 of 16 are still useable. 7 of 16 were damaged by this neglect.
The lesson is that even during periods of disuse, the batteries still need to be charged / maintained periodically.

There was another thread with damaged cells recently viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6548 Where the pack seems to have had some bad connections... causing some cells to not charge & eventually fail.
no longer able to use my TravelScoots
flagman1776
 
Posts: 2309
Joined: 16 Nov 2012, 16:28
Location: Rhode Island, USA

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby brianpile1 » 24 Jan 2017, 11:44

Thanks for all the advice, regarding " self-ownership" of the process. I agree - I will not start this until I have read everything here at least twice!

As an afterthought, I am now thinking of replacing just one gel battery [because the front one is a nightmare to get out, and involves removing the seat and framework/ motors].

So what do people think of the following idea. I could build a 54ah pack, to replace the rear gel battery only.

Would this be feasible, or is it a dumb plan?

Brian
brianpile1
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 06 May 2010, 16:55
Location: Leicester, UK

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Jan 2017, 12:01

You don't want to know the answer! :shock:
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 69892
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby steves1977uk » 24 Jan 2017, 12:29

Bad idea just replacing one battery! Let's just say there could be a BOOM! if one battery is severely overcharged. Best to replace them both at the same time and equalise them before they are fitted.

Steve
User avatar
steves1977uk
 
Posts: 4395
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 21:47
Location: Wells next the Sea, Norfolk, UK

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Jan 2017, 12:43

Its worse than that. He is talking about replacing one lead, with a lithium!

Ending up with 12v lead, + 12v lithium = 24v series... :cry:
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 69892
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby steves1977uk » 24 Jan 2017, 13:42

Ohhh $h!t... :shock: :o

Steve
User avatar
steves1977uk
 
Posts: 4395
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 21:47
Location: Wells next the Sea, Norfolk, UK

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby shirley_hkg » 24 Jan 2017, 13:46

I know you guys want to offer the best of the best .

For a 45Ah add-on to double the range per charge , BMS is the easiest way for people with limited ability , knowledge and tools .

No complaint so far , since my first add-on back in 2007 .
shirley_hkg
 
Posts: 4481
Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 13:42

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby steves1977uk » 24 Jan 2017, 13:54

He's not talking about a 24v add-on Shirley, he thinks he can replace ONE 12v Lead brick with a 12v Lithium pack... :shock: Bad idea!!!

Steve
User avatar
steves1977uk
 
Posts: 4395
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 21:47
Location: Wells next the Sea, Norfolk, UK

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby shirley_hkg » 24 Jan 2017, 14:25

I knew . He said it 's too much work to take the front battery out .

What on earth is that to remove the MOTOR for changing battery ! :o
shirley_hkg
 
Posts: 4481
Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 13:42

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby flagman1776 » 24 Jan 2017, 16:25

Brian,
Do us all a favor... I had to go back through a couple of pages to find what chair you have a "Frontier V4" & still don't have any idea where you are located... advise on resources will vary & this is an international forum. You can go to the User Control Panel & find places to enter this information. Help us to help you better!
THX!
no longer able to use my TravelScoots
flagman1776
 
Posts: 2309
Joined: 16 Nov 2012, 16:28
Location: Rhode Island, USA

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 24 Jan 2017, 17:13

shirley_hkg wrote: I know you guys want to offer the best of the best .

For a 45Ah add-on to double the range per charge , BMS is the easiest way for people with limited ability , knowledge and tools .

No complaint so far , since my first add-on back in 2007 .



I agree with this Shirley - i got to like ADD ON packs - i would do without the BMS though if at all possiable - but a ADD ON is the best way to get started and it would give a huge range improvement without have to do much in the chair etc,

all outside of the chair - just New MK Gel 24 - direct cable to connect and charge - thats it - and its flexibly :D - can bring to any other chair if needed -
Quickie 636 - 230ah LifePo4
expresso
 
Posts: 11985
Joined: 10 May 2010, 03:17

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby brianpile1 » 24 Jan 2017, 18:14

Okay guys, understood, 12V gel + 12V Lithium = NO!

So I assume the onlY acceptable option is 24V gel, + 24V lithium add-on, like expresso's, or else the full conversion?
brianpile1
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 06 May 2010, 16:55
Location: Leicester, UK

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby brianpile1 » 24 Jan 2017, 18:19

brianpile1 wrote:Okay guys, understood, 12V gel + 12V Lithium = NO!

So I assume the onlY acceptable option is 24V gel, + 24V lithium add-on, like expresso's, or else the full conversion?



and .
I am in Leicester UK
brianpile1
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 06 May 2010, 16:55
Location: Leicester, UK

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 24 Jan 2017, 18:28

brianpile1 wrote:Okay guys, understood, 12V gel + 12V Lithium = NO!

So I assume the onlY acceptable option is 24V gel, + 24V lithium add-on, like expresso's, or else the full conversion?



yes those are your options - and if you dont want to go with the PL 8 or cant do that part of it - then Shirley i believe can help with getting you a proper BMS if you choose to use one -
Quickie 636 - 230ah LifePo4
expresso
 
Posts: 11985
Joined: 10 May 2010, 03:17

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Gnomatic » 24 Jan 2017, 18:59

brianpile1 wrote: [because the front one is a nightmare to get out, and involves removing the seat and framework/ motors].
Brian


Brian, can if you don't mind, take some pics of the base of your chair and post them here. Front, back, right side, left side. I'd like a good look seat frame and the base. I have a V6, and while the battery arrangement etc is different than the V4, they share many of the same components,

I can't say with 100% certainty that you don't need uninstall the motors to access the front battery compartment of your chair, but I'd be REALLY surprised if that's the case.

Getting the seat off is actually quite easy. It just four bolts and unplugging a few wires. Do you have a Hoyer or any type of transfer assist lift? Comes in handy taking seats off chairs. What, if any, power seating options does your chair have on it?

Here's my V6 base with the seat off, batteries removed. Its not hard to get the seat off. Just pay attention what plugs into where. Label the wires beforehand if it would be helpful. While your V4 has a different battery arrangement, you'll notice a lot of similarities with my V6.

Image
Gnomatic
 
Posts: 2122
Joined: 24 Aug 2012, 17:18
Location: Ohio USA

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Jan 2017, 19:05

Dynamite. Faster disassembly. But messier.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 69892
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Gnomatic » 24 Jan 2017, 19:16

Burgerman wrote:Dynamite. Faster disassembly. But messier.


If by messier you mean having to take the seat off to access the batteries, then yes that's true. But it was the same case for all the old X5's too. So I guess I'm used to it.
Gnomatic
 
Posts: 2122
Joined: 24 Aug 2012, 17:18
Location: Ohio USA

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 24 Jan 2017, 19:19

nice - i like it when you have open space to work and see - it may be some work to get it this way but makes it so much easier to work and then once done - and done right - you shouldnt have to remove it ever again for a LONG time :)

i cant imagine having to remove a motor to replace batteries - sounds like a Porsche to me :) not sure which model 911 - i heard you have to remove the engine to change the spark plugs ? good thing they get changed after a very long time i believe but thats a Job - i drove one before - never owned so i could be wrong here also

that would be a job for the Tech if they had to remove the motor each time they replace batteries -
Quickie 636 - 230ah LifePo4
expresso
 
Posts: 11985
Joined: 10 May 2010, 03:17

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Gnomatic » 24 Jan 2017, 19:25

expresso wrote:nice - i like it when you have open space to work and see - it may be some work to get it this way but makes it so much easier to work and then once done - and done right - you shouldnt have to remove it ever again for a LONG time :)


The whole back wall of the battery compartment comes off to very easy as well just a few screws. So it won't be any problem getting a pack like yours in there.
Gnomatic
 
Posts: 2122
Joined: 24 Aug 2012, 17:18
Location: Ohio USA

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Jan 2017, 20:28

Burgerman wrote:
Dynamite. Faster disassembly. But messier.



If by messier you mean having to take the seat off to access the batteries, then yes that's true. But it was the same case for all the old X5's too. So I guess I'm used to it.


No I mean dynamite makes it come apart fast and easy.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 69892
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Gnomatic » 24 Jan 2017, 20:48

Burgerman wrote:
No I mean dynamite makes it come apart fast and easy.


That certainly would do it!

:lol:
Gnomatic
 
Posts: 2122
Joined: 24 Aug 2012, 17:18
Location: Ohio USA

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Jan 2017, 20:54

When his rocket exploded, at about 6 thousand feet, Elon Musk tweeted "we had a RUD after launch".

Turns out they call explosions "Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly".
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 69892
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby shirley_hkg » 25 Jan 2017, 00:39

I want one too . :D
shirley_hkg
 
Posts: 4481
Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 13:42

PreviousNext

Return to Everything Powerchair

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kande_ian, LROBBINS, shirley_hkg and 105 guests

cron

 

  eXTReMe Tracker