Battery ADD on pack - First Attempt -

[expresso]

Scollard - that dosnt sound that bad - i have the wires already - 8 AWG - 50 feet black and 50 Red - i never did solder - but i will follow BM page on how to crimp solder to make it - i have the tools now to crimp it good -

all i would need is the Ring Connectors - What size do i need to get for the Ring ? a link showing it - if you can - that way i get the right ones - then we can figure how long the wiring has to be etc, i have to get a good Wire cutter to cut that larger wire -

slowly i have all the tools i need - just have to use them now - and just a few mins ago - i just got my BMS in the mail from Shirley - didnt open it yet - later - i will and take pictures to show you -

i will get the extra cells on monday and the buss bars on Wed. next week - can start next weekend with my friend -

[Scollard]

Here are the ring terminals that you can crimp and then solder.

http://www.amazon.com/Install-Bay-Coppe ... 0RB0HXM_tt

You will want to heat shrink them afterwards so make sure you also have heat shrink. You probably also want some of this to keep the wires corralled:

http://www.amazon.com/Inch-Expandable-B ... 1A5BW54_tt

[expresso]

i got some heatshrink already - its a mix bag - not many though - but i should be able to have enough to finish this i think - i put those ring termials in my wish list to save and that sleeve - i got that also but mines is 1/2 inch

is that too big - - if i can get away with using the 1/2 inch - i have that already - if you think i need 3/8 - let me know - i get that also -

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NPB ... ge_o07_s00

i have this one - but alot of small sizes in there - can come in handy for the balance wires i guess -

[expresso]

Here is it - the BMS - from Shirley - thanks alot - - a bunch of wires does intimate me some -

[Scollard]

I'm not sure I understand everything to do with that BMS. What is the red alligator clip for? and what is the yellow connector? It also looks like there is an XLR connector for hooking up the charger that came with the chair. The balance wires I totally understand as I do the other connectors. It will be easy. You will probably have the whole battery built in under an hour.

[Burgerman]

Because the BMS has a very weak balance circuit and the cells may not be all balanced initially, I think Shirley included a 3.6v 1A power supply to drag each cell up to full to give the BMS a chance to start with.

Otherwise if just 1 cell was say just 3Ah different to the rest, and the bms has a 100mA balance circuit, then the thing would need to be on charge for 3Ah div by 100mA = 30 HOURS to let the BMS balance it. That's 30 hours with the charger cutting in and out as the volts go over the limit again and again on the full cells. Or just turning off too soon with only some cells charged depending on what the charger and bms do between them.

I could be wrong. But he mentioned it in a previous post.

Dead simple these BMS things! Its a bit more of that TLC he mentioned. But hopefully only initially.

[Scollard]

Because the BMS has a very weak balance circuit and the cells may not be all balanced initially, I think Shirley included a 3.6v 1A power supply to drag each cell up to full to give the BMS a chance to start with.

Otherwise if just 1 cell was say just 3Ah different to the rest, and the bms has a 100mA balance circuit, then the thing would need to be on charge for 3Ah div by 100mA = 30 HOURS to let the BMS balance it. That's 30 hours with the charger cutting in and out as the volts go over the limit again and again on the full cells. Or just turning off too soon with only some cells charged depending on what the charger and bms do between them.

I could be wrong. But he mentioned it in a previous post.

Dead simple these BMS things! Its a bit more of that TLC he mentioned. But hopefully only initially.

I get it. You think the red and black alligator clips are for putting an initial full charge on the batteries. We have to charge them all up before invoking the BMS.

[Burgerman]

Yes because unlike the PL8 that already has a 1 Amp balance circuit the BMS cannot do that. If they start out unbalanced the feeble balance circuits will never cope. At least in any sensible time period.

[expresso]

I Recall Shirley - Saying for the very first time charging it - to use the slow charger XLR port - i can use either a 8 amp charger or a 5 amp charger for that process which is better suited for Gel batteries - or the 8 amp which is 28.8V charger

Shirley would have to explain how to do it when i am at that point -

Scollard - i can get the orange blocks ready the way you sent me the pictures - to use the 4 hole buss bars - will have them tomorrow - the buss bars on Wed. and my friend helper can help me on Friday for sure -

So if you can - you can explain or and show how do i postion the Cells now - i was following the other picture with the 2 hole buss bars - but with the 4 hole - its different

i need to know for sure how the Cells get arranged in the orange blocks - the first two would be Pos both of them - and at the other end both Neg - i think thats correct. - now the rest i leave it up to you


i understand the very first charge will be a lone one - so i will end up leaving it on the charger how would i know when its done ? i have to make a wire now SB50 from the pack to the chair - and find something to sit this pack in - before putting it in my back pack - have to get something to wrap it in also - can i use the clear plastic wrap that is used in the Kitchen for covering leftover food etc, - saran wrap ?

[Burgerman]

You don't.

i understand the very first charge will be a lone one - so i will end up leaving it on the charger how would i know when its done ?

Other than to trust its LEDs and or measure exact voltage to 3 decimals, and to measure current going to each cell at the same time as it charges.

(With the PL8 its all displayed as it happens and if its not doing as you wish you can change some settings until it does)

[expresso]

i see - i am starting to see how Not using a BMS makes sense now - i will see this one thru with the BMS - i really want to see how it works -

with the PL8 - all i would need is a sb50 for the chair and charge balance cable - one cable made - for the charging part - then use the PL 8 charge - balance - fast simple and more accuarate - when done - unplug charge cable and thats it -

less wires and things in between - makes sense - But at the time i wanted to do this - i wasnt thinking of the PL8 and the whole nine yards of i needed and making a cable etc, etc, - i wasnt thinking of doing the whole chair then etc,

so in my eyes - at that time and still now maybe - with the BMS made more sense to me - but now that things may be changing for me here - i get intimatied when i see alot of things wires and connections etc, - and it seems thats just want i did to myself -

all i was foucsed on was just plug it in and use - charge as i always did with the dumb charger - i may very well once its all done connected and in use - be happy with the results - But moving forward - if i do anything else - i think i will get the PL 8 and get used to that procedure -

one set back was and still is now - i have to make that charge balance cable for it - - looks complicated to solder those thin wires in the connector etc, - i also have to know what wire goes where etc, - pin 1 so on -

[Burgerman]

and it seems thats just want i did to myself -

Yep!

You need to make a charge or balance lead for a BMS or a Hobby Charger. So it doesn't make any difference.

Except its SIMPLER with a PL8... You make a simple D connector with 9 balance wires, and 2 thicker charge wires. That's it.

In both cases you will need to learn to crimp, use heat shrink, solder, order correct stuff on eBay etc. And all that stuff is essential in life anyway. And its easy but takes practice and you will get better at it. Expect a mess to start with...

[expresso]

i Know - i seen the ones you made - i have to make it that way - i have used heat shrink before - going my audio speaker wires etc, - i have the stuff to do it - i need a small solder kit - and the rest of those parts -

the balance cable i need to get to start with is the one on the PL 8 site - 36 inch long ? cut one end and have to solder that end to the connector in the correct pins - with the two 12 AWG silicone cables for the charge and they have to be soldered i see -

If this BMS works out - i will still leave it with this small pack - if i move on to the PL 8 - and able to make the wiring cables etc, - if i ever make another ADD ON later - for the other chair - or what ever - i wont use BMS -

this is my first - and most likely my last if i am able to do it the other way -

would be nice if someone made a bunch of these cables and sold them to us ? an idea

[Scollard]

I Recall Shirley - Saying for the very first time charging it - to use the slow charger XLR port - i can use either a 8 amp charger or a 5 amp charger for that process which is better suited for Gel batteries - or the 8 amp which is 28.8V charger

Shirley would have to explain how to do it when i am at that point -

Scollard - i can get the orange blocks ready the way you sent me the pictures - to use the 4 hole buss bars - will have them tomorrow - the buss bars on Wed. and my friend helper can help me on Friday for sure -

So if you can - you can explain or and show how do i postion the Cells now - i was following the other picture with the 2 hole buss bars - but with the 4 hole - its different

i need to know for sure how the Cells get arranged in the orange blocks - the first two would be Pos both of them - and at the other end both Neg - i think thats correct. - now the rest i leave it up to you


i understand the very first charge will be a lone one - so i will end up leaving it on the charger how would i know when its done ? i have to make a wire now SB50 from the pack to the chair - and find something to sit this pack in - before putting it in my back pack - have to get something to wrap it in also - can i use the clear plastic wrap that is used in the Kitchen for covering leftover food etc, - saran wrap ?

You will alternate between positive up and negative up. So 2 cells side-by-side red up, then 2 cells side-by-side black up and repeat until you have all 16 cells placed. Then post a picture so we can see you have done it right.

We need to find out from Shirley if we charge each cell individually with the XLR connector. I believe the idea is you plug the XLR connector into the charge port on your chair and connect the red and black alligator clips to the cell, red positive and black negative, and top up the cell. One question is how do we know when the cell is full. The theory being here, we want all cells to be fully charged before we try to balance charge the pack.

BM, do we have to do the cells individually or can we make a parallel pack and charge them all at once, or maybe in 2 sets of 8?

[Burgerman]

Its probably better to do all in parallel. But if that's just a 1A charger then its going to take a very very long time however you do it. 16 x 12Ah is 192Ah! So lets hope they are all pretty well charged. You cant really tell from voltage alone until they reach 3.55 to 3.60V

So probably better to do 2 at a time, in parallel, and wait till you see 3.6V. Rinse and repeat, 8 times...

[expresso]

Ok just to be sure - the orange blocks you want me to put them together the same way - the pictures you sent me - for using the 4 hole connectors ?

[Scollard]

Ok just to be sure - the orange blocks you want me to put them together the same way - the pictures you sent me - for using the 4 hole connectors ?

Yes

[shirley_hkg]

Because the BMS has a very weak balance circuit and the cells may not be all balanced initially, I think Shirley included a 3.6v 1A power supply to drag each cell up to full to give the BMS a chance to start with.

Otherwise if just 1 cell was say just 3Ah different to the rest, and the bms has a 100mA balance circuit, then the thing would need to be on charge for 3Ah div by 100mA = 30 HOURS to let the BMS balance it. That's 30 hours with the charger cutting in and out as the volts go over the limit again and again on the full cells. Or just turning off too soon with only some cells charged depending on what the charger and bms do between them.

I could be wrong. But he mentioned it in a previous post.

Dead simple these BMS things! Its a bit more of that TLC he mentioned. But hopefully only initially.

BM is playing attention and he is right. The yellow thing is meant for bringing up lagging cells individually.

IT MUST BE POWERED FROM INDIVIDUAL SOURCE AND ADD-ON IS DISCONNECTED FROM CHAIR.

In view of the small add on, 12 ah or 24ah at most, and all cells are 3.3V on arrival seems well balanced , I recommend to let the BMS --- TO DO THE INITIAL CHARGE . See what comes up and do individual balance at later stage.

Satisfactory outcome is expected and let's hope for the best.

You should assemble your cells to form a 24V pack NOW. Take pictures and we guild you hooking up the balance wires and the BMS. Start the first charge.

Lastly, put the cell monitor aside to avoid complexity at this stage. Good luck.

[Scollard]

In view of the small add on, 12 ah or 24ah at most, and all cells are 3.3V on arrival seems well balanced , I recommend to let the BMS --- TO DO THE INITIAL CHARGE . See what comes up and do individual balance at later stage.

Satisfactory outcome is expected and let's hope for the best.

You should assemble your cells to form a 24V pack NOW. Take pictures and we guild you hooking up the balance wires and the BMS. Start the first charge.

Lastly, put the cell monitor aside to avoid complexity at this stage. Good luck.

Shirley, does the BMS have lights to show when cells are in balance?

[shirley_hkg]

Shirley, does the BMS have lights to show when cells are in balance?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5597&start=40

[Burgerman]

BMS dead simple! I foresee a lot of posts and confusion!

[expresso]

At Scollard - I will arrange the orange blocks later - and post picture back - in the event i wanted to add another Roll of 8 Cells later on after this is all done - would it be easy to do with the connections and how are arranging the orange blocks

being that we are using the 4 hole mostly - -

i got the Rest of the Cells today - all 16 Cells checked out at 3.3V - Wed. i would have the rest of the buss bars

[Burgerman]

3.3V tells us very, very little.

My Headway cells read 3.3XX volts from 98% full to about 30% full while taking out power.

They only read higher (like over 3.4V) if fully charged. Anything from 3.4V to 3.6V at rest after charge is full. Anything less only tells us ONLY that they are not dead, and not full.

You may need a voltmeter with a few more digits. For eg this graph, shows my Headway battery discharging for 7.1 Hours. At 4 Amps.

Its voltage is 3.305V from beginning to end 7 hours later. But they have had around 50Ah taken out. Still reads 3.305V regardless.

So you need to assemble the pack (rubber gloves, glasses, MUCH care with bus bars position or sparks and smoke if you touch the wrong bits together) and then measure voltage as they charge. Once charged the volts will go up to 3.6V while charging. That's how you will know they are charged.

[expresso]

i will be careful once i get the buss bars and will take it step by step as Scollard will guide me along that way - first the orange blocks and the Cells in there place - then i will post the pic -

not connecting anything yet - till i get the rest and till i get instructions from Scollard to be sure and safe - - Very cold here - but my apt. is very warm - dont need more heat

[Scollard]

At Scollard - I will arrange the orange blocks later - and post picture back - in the event i wanted to add another Roll of 8 Cells later on after this is all done - would it be easy to do with the connections and how are arranging the orange blocks

being that we are using the 4 hole mostly - -

i got the Rest of the Cells today - all 16 Cells checked out at 3.3V - Wed. i would have the rest of the buss bars

No problem adding another row. Don't have to rewire the pack or anything. Just add the row and make the connections between the new row and the existing pack.

[Scollard]

i will be careful once i get the buss bars and will take it step by step as Scollard will guide me along that way - first the orange blocks and the Cells in there place - then i will post the pic -

not connecting anything yet - till i get the rest and till i get instructions from Scollard to be sure and safe - - Very cold here - but my apt. is very warm - dont need more heat

The pack can be built very safely, especially if you have the blocks laid out how I showed you. It will be very difficult to short out the pack with a bus bar. You will have to be careful not to drop a tool that might short it out.

[shirley_hkg]

Film wrap your Allen key by exposing one end only.

[flagman1776]

Film wrapping would work... so would heat shrink tubing on the unused part of the allem wrench. Another precaution is to use dry shop clothes (old towels) to cover the battery areas that you are not working on. Also useful for catching dropped screws.

[Burgerman]

I have an Allen key with a large bit missing out of it. Its all part of the fun. Doesn't hurt the battery if it fast, but does make you pay attention! I do it every time at least twice every pack.

[expresso]

Ok i put it together - i believe this is the way -

First pic is the bottom and next one is the Top