Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

[Burgerman]

I expect them to last three, or more. So swap at them 2 years because I cant walk home!
And cant get back if they screw up while out. So the ones I take off get stripped, examined, bearings, brushes, gearbox regreased, new cush drive and kept as spares on the shelf. Or returned to use on an older chair or backup chair. To me the risk isnt worth it. I strip the full chair at the same time and repplace anything not as new. Clean, repowder coat or paint, new bearings, batteries unless lithium, check all connectors, worn arms, tyres etc and then reassemble as new. Throw a sheet over it!

Also you all seem to want/expect your system/insurance to pay for everything. And most will never do a thing to help themselves. And that means you have to rely on others. Or wait for failure. Thats just not me... There are people like that here too. I see them struggling on crap motorised deck chairs and tired batteries in my town all the time. They look in awe as I have something shiny, faster, prettier, or lithium powerd etc. Even my new salsa chair. The NHS will buy those. But low power. No lights. No lift normally. Skinny grey tyres. And no fancy control pod, or anything else. Just the very basic version. And not in black as its a custom colour. And no black tyres or fat rims! And no power CENTRE footplate. They WANT what I have. They think someone else should pay. Part of mine is paid by the system. The rest, I pay.


Linix motors are actually not very expensive in the scheme of things especially if you order from a good dealer and get a bit of discount. If you have a regular dealer that you use frequently you can talk about you just giving him order poart numbers and he just supplies at a better price. I used to do that. Especially worthwhile, as you can ebay your 2 year old ones for around 1/3rd the new cost back in your pocket if you want as well.

Eg, linix motors, about 270 to 300 retail. From memory? The german AMT were 270 I think. A few years ago. http://parts.sunrisemedical.eu/template/index.php log in as guest. guest to look for part numbers. Get your high street or online dealer to quote for parts.
The 13kph 4 pole are the most expensive motors on the whole site from dozens of types. And still not that bad £$£$.

But 4 pole linix sell for approx 185 a set on ebay used.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUICKIE-JIVE ... Sw2gxYpyMi
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUICKIE-JIVE ... SwIWVY-MsD
So you can swap used for new every 2 years realistically for about 400 or 500 at worst case. And as you only use your 2 chairs half the time you can do it every 4 years instead. Works out at 100 per year to have self bought new motors before they wear out.

[expresso]

https://www.quickie-wheelchairs.com/rep ... -s636-s646


this is the cost here - the link you sent in in EU -

dealers here give you the same price as these prices - they dont do us any favors when it comes to this stuff - and yes i do expect insurance to cover - thats how insurance should work - reason we have it - but yes i understand its the low end of insurances - NOT everyone can afford to do this with out insurance involved -

i can manage some things - but has to be within reason - and that can vary - the battery pack was well worth it to me - freedom and hopefully will out last the chair - - cant get around that - its either i do it on my own or never gets done - but motors - seat lifts etc, anything with the chair that insurance purchased - should be paid by insurance - yes it takes time - as long as i have my back up chair to hold me over till its repaired - which insurance covers also - - now once i get another chair - then my backup chair would be dropped off my insurance and wont be covered anymore

with that chair - i would have to do it myself - motors etc, - i had motors changed already - i kept the old ones - in the event i really need them - can send them out to be rebuilt and then install - if it comes to that - i may never - since once i get another chair - that backup chair will - may end up as my indoor chair only after that -

or just sit and wait if ever needed -

[Burgerman]

Its not that they are favours. Its caused by the screwed up system in the US. The wheelchair manufacturers knows there will need to be huge discounts to the insurers. So they taking the usual price like we would pay in the UK, and basically doubling them or more. So that in the end they get the right amount! But what that does is make all the list prices for parts CRAZY as you and the public are not going to get the same discounts as the insurers. The same seems to be happening with your chairs. Base price, not much different to ours. Then all the stuff you need like say extra for 4 pole, or a tilt addon, is telephone numbers! Because they know that the insurer will pay half of that or less.

This is what happens when you distort the free market forces that normally control pricing with complex rules and take away all free choice from the user. In a free market where the buyers is you, and every business competes to succeed and make profit, they would all need to compete for sales. Its YOU they would have to please.

Imagine. 5 companies. All make powerchairs. To grow, and sell products and make money for their owners, shareholder, etc they must sell many powerchairs. So in a free market with no complex rules and where YOU are the buyer who now has freedom of choice we have the following scenario:

1 company makes chairs the same as the average chair, but MUCH cheaper than all the others. They will take a large market share from the walking wounded.
1 makes better powerchairs that give the user what they at reasonable prices. They will take a large share of the market too, for those that know what they want.
3 companies make average chairs at todays stupid US prices. These will either need to change their ways or go bust. Since you the public wont buy. Net result, bad companies, underdeveloped products die off. The best compaies/service/chairs/ grow and expand. And new ones crop up if prices are too high. As it leaves a gap in the market.

Thats what free market with no distortions does. As long as the UK and other countries rely on the experts to supply free chairs and the US to rely on others to assess and choose what you get for "free", then we will continue to pay telephone numbers for simple parts, or full chairs with a much lower level of development than normal consumer products. We will never see the sort of built quality or design, or R and D or customer service or value for money we see on other consumer things.

This is why the industry, and the UKs wheelchair services are dragging their feet, and very hard to persuade to give the money to the end user. They dont want change. They dont want the user to be the boss with spending power. My original pilot scheme. They dont like it, it means they are going to have to wake up and improve drastically. And behave like a car or TV dealer/shop. Customer is king. This was supposed to be live from january this year. But it seems many people are still having a fight to get a cheque! Its happening. But resistance is high! But futile.

10 years from now, our wheelchair services will not really exist in its current form. It wont hand out, service, repair, etc. It will assess and advise, and give a cheque instead every few years based on your needs. For you to buy what you want. So they will help the bewildered to choose, but the dealers we have now will either turn into real consumer freindly places like a car dealership, or toysrus for wheelchairs. With knowledgable trained staff that know their jobs. To help the consumer choose from the multitude of options. And they will have specialist controls, seating specialist companies or advisors that understand the market.

They will have no choice if the disabled public are all running around waving 4 to 10k around for a chair. And service will be of utmost importance too. Remember thare are many feedback type sites on the web. Bad service = customers all run away. Its called capitalism. And it works. Same reason the unemployed, disabled can afford iphones or wide screen TVs or food and clothes.

[expresso]

correct - its screwed up and nothing to be done about it - we will be charged retail - if the dealer got it for me - they will get the discount and still charge me the same retail price -

now my new chair if it ever gets off the ground - the quote is one price - but the dealer gets a TON of discounts off that quote - which in the end is maybe half the quote -

but now if i called and said hey - i dont have insurance - but i take the chair at the quote the dealer would get it - half the price - they wont sell it at that price - they tell me the retail - Maybe maybe they take off $1000 - thats nothing - so instead of $42,000 - we give it to you for lets say $39,000 - if they gave you that much off - thats insane so this is why most of us here on our low income cant afford things and have to go thru insurance -

even if you got a good low price for a motor - $500 each instead of $995 retail - thats $1000 still - and thats alot of money for many -some make less than that a month - even though its a great price compared to retail - many still cant do that -

it sucks - but thats how it is - wont be changing in my lifetime i dont think -

[Burgerman]

I know theres 4.5 times more people in the US. But maybe try get the rules changed in your own state. I did. Just because I was extremely stuborn. Its got to be possible. If a bunch of you write a paper, and lobby whoever makes the rules.

You see theres another issue here. There seems to be much less choice in the US for chairs too. The manufacturers only market chairs that fit certain price and catogories. There seems to be for eg almost no rear drive chairs available. Other than the ones you have. And one of those is really a powered rear with a manual chairs front. And the other is almost a mid drive with large anti tip/castors.

For EG the Salsa chairs here like I just bought are availabe in: front, mid, and rear drive. The very same chairs in the US have a different name but only the mid drive one is available. The front and rear drive ones are missing. Because the manufacturers know they will only be paid by insurers. So all the non insurance covered option powerchairs we get in the EU or even south americas or south africa, australia, are not avalable in the US?

[expresso]

I know theres 4.5 times more people in the US. But maybe try get the rules changed in your own state. I did. Just because I was extremely stuborn. Its got to be possible.

actually i think NYC may be better than the other states - - with alot of things for disabled overall - homecare etc, and thats all under attack now - never ending cuts and cuts and cuts to our basic home care needs - but yet - they give 3x the cost to nursing homes instead - go figure - makes not sense for the tax payers who are footing the bill -

last year i was almost for sure getting my new chair with lithium - now - i am not sure i am getting a new chair at all yet - never mind the lithium option - we see - i take it with out if i have to - and make it myself - would be better anyway - but if i could have gotten it done - would make it easier for me - and wont cost me -

[shirley_hkg]

Seen it on INVACARE too .

Ain't no way to treat the magnets than to glue them .

[Burgerman]

never ending cuts and cuts and cuts to our basic home care needs - but yet - they give 3x the cost to nursing homes instead - go figure - makes not sense for the tax payers who are footing the bill -

In the UK, they decided a few years back, maybe 25? That it was better for:
The taxpayer
Society in general
The disabled persons
The old persons

To give them as best chance to live in their own homes rather than in institutions. As such any home adaptations needed are usually paid by the local councils or the NHS pays, sometimes subject to means testing. Like lifts, ramps, adapted kitchens, wet rooms, hoists, wheelchairs, shower chairs, electric beds, door locking and camera systems, ceiling transport lifts, etc. As a one off cost its cheaper than institutionalised care. And the same for care workers (you employ carers at home). They discovered that it was generally much cheaper to do this than put someone into a care home. So taxpayer wins. And user has a better life with more choices which turns out to be better for physical and mental wellbeing. Society wins as these people take part in society, have the same consumer needs as the rest of society, and often jobs depending on abilities.

So the usual institutionalised old folks home model, with agencies or local council employed care teams, or NHS supplied wheelchairs, and other equipment is all dying in the UK. All of this is now or can be IF you ask for it paid to you, a personal budget that YOU manage to best deal with your own needs.

[Burgerman]

Seen it on INVACARE too .
Ain't no way to treat the magnets than to glue them

But its rare. I have seen (maybe?) only on hobby motors in planes that are running at around 1500 watts or more, 55 to 70,000 rpms, and the size of a very small egg! We use them on little flying wings and pylon racers. Those failures are usually caused by heat. And if it happens they fail catastrophically and they are instantly destroyed and stop with a bang like they hit a wall. Rather than grinding to atoms slowly. I think rare earth magnets dont crumble and are harder? Its actually hard to determine what failed first. Everything is wrecked.

[greybeard]

Seen it on INVACARE too .
Ain't no way to treat the magnets than to glue them

I think rare earth magnets dont crumble and are harder? Its actually hard to determine what failed first. Everything is wrecked.

I thought rare earth magnets were sintered, so they are basically just particles compressed in a strong magnetic field. They shatter easily if dropped or hit. At least that's been my experience.

[Burgerman]

Maybe, I never made a magnet. But I have a few motors. They look like this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=n50+mag ... 80&bih=618

I have a large n50 one too and dropped it into the bench, floor which is concrete etc many times. Not a blemish. And it shoots out of my hand and hits anything iron pretty fast! Also the ones with a countersunk hole in I have screwed to the wall to hold my gate shut. Nithing shatters when tightened?

[Burgerman]

Ferrite type
Compressive strength (N/mm2) 800
Tensile strength (N/mm2) 35

Typical chinese N50
Compressive strength (N/mm2) 1100
Tensile strength (N/mm2) 75

According to wiki, so twice as strong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet

They use a weird bonding thing...

1. Classical powder metallurgy or sintered magnet process[11] old type.
2. Rapid solidification or bonded magnet process

[Burgerman]

Removed 30mm thick foam pad from the centre footplated and replaced wiuth a 300 x 240mm carbon fibre 3mm thick proper autoclaved sheet. Worth about £30 but I had it... Left over from some motorcycle project years ago.
Since it was sticking out and holding my legs from the footplate rear edge. Now it doesent!

Actually looks great. When you photograph it it does weird shit with the sensor. And looks brown/dull... Something to do with having no low pass filter on the D810.

[snaker]

BM, how do you strap your legs to the center footrest? Some pics will help me much

[Burgerman]

I dont. No need. I do use a "bum bag" as a strap around my legs to keep my knees together and to keep money, keys, cards, pills, sunglasses, torch etc in.

If you need some strap, you could bolt a velcro strap to the carbon plate. To loosely go around your legs. Its really strong. Its not pretty shiny ornamental carbon fibre as used by boy racers, but real autoclaved pre-preg engineering stuff as used in formula 1 race cars or aircraft parts. Its seriously stiff, even though just 3mm thick. Light, but you cant break or bend it in any way. If you put one end in a vice and hit it it rings like hard metal sheet. If you drop it it sounds like glass rod. And you can swing on it with almost no flex and you are not strong enough to break it with a hammer. Way too good for that footrest leg plate! But I was using it to mount brake calipers on a big motorcycle. Its a leftover... So it got used.

[snaker]

If moving on difficult terrain and uneven surfaces, I am afraid that the feet easily go off the footplate. I am actually using the swing away footrests and I have to strongly strap my ankles to them. I have not found a sensible way to strap my ankles/legs to a center footrest yet.

[Burgerman]

A single wide velcro strap around your legs near the bottom. I used to do that. One bolt on each half with a large washer and then good to go! https://www.amazon.com/VELCRO-1804-OW-P ... B00I0TTPL8

[Burgerman]

You cant have tilt or recline, esp both, without a headrest... Your head is heavy!
The stock headrest mount that sunriuse supply, requires that it is fitted over the huge push handles, sticks out about 9 inches total, and looks terrible.

So I threw it away as you do, along with all the adjustable knickles that nobody needs, and then made a stronger simpler much lighter mount that mounts where the seat recline actuator goes on the cross bar on the seat back.

Basically I added 2x bits of 5mm thick x 25mm angle iron x 75mm long. And 2x alloy bars, 13mm diameter. At the top added two M8 "eye" bolts. Easy, 10 mins work. And a few 13mm spacers at the headrest mount.

And push handles now shortened by 7.5 inches. I can now turn around in my van, at my PC, or in the toilet, without ripping chunks out of the wall or knocking the computer off the bench... And it wobbles less, looks better, and saves about 4lb...

[Burgerman]

Replaces this (not my chair, same setup...) here:

[CPguy]

That looks so ... disabled I guess! Right you are to improve on that!

I would not want to be found dead in something as ugly as that...

[Burgerman]

Its not just me. Or you. NOBODY wants it. So why do they do it?

Its like they are trying to make it as badly thought out as they can. To use up as much metal, with as many parts, bracketrs, & bolts as possible. That makes it over heavy, over complicated and as ugly as possible. So that nobody wants it. It also makes it 10 inches too big/wide. Hits everything around you. Maybe they want to sell as few chairs as possible?

Changing half a dozen such cockups on this chair (or any production chair) turns it from a thing of horror to a desirable, properly functional chair. That leaves one question. What are they thinking?

It remains the best rear wheel drive chair available at the moment however! Just requires some minor improvements. But all do.

[Scooterman]

Sorry back again...

After being turned down by WCS due to not requiring an indoor powerchair, I'm still after a used salsa r2. I know roughly what used chairs go for + shipping cost. So I'm trying to work out the overall cost £ to get one how I would like. I know roughly what a used lift+tilt+recline chair goes for used. I've asked rover220 for a price for a fixed centre footplate (if he has one), and also does it just bolt on?
I'm assuming it won't cost me anything to move the seat back apart from skinned knuckles and some cussing.
How about changing the 12.5" solid drive wheels and solid 9" castors tyres and perhaps wheels to give a more cushioning ride and nicer look?
I don't know this Shirley HK gentleman so will have to buy in UK. Also if I changed the drive wheels I'm guessing I'd need to get some of them spacer plates made like BM.
I don't mean to be ignorant but it is confusing for me. I just want to sort myself with a usable powerchair which will give me an additional mobility tool (along with my scooters and manual chair) to get me out and about to where I want to go.

Could possibly BM or someone else list what parts I would need and a ballpark figure for them? But not including the centre footplate as I've asked Rover220 for a price for one of them. I can then tot them up with the cost of the chair, shipping and possibly batteries to get an overall price to get myself powerchair mobile.

[Burgerman]

Its not that simple. It all depends what you buy to start with. A simple lift or no lift on an order form changes a lot of other parts and so alters what you may need. Same goes for every tick on the original order form. So before anyone can advise then you need to know what you are buying, and what you intend to do. Somewhere I already made a list of what you should buy initially in a chair. Have a read through my thread here from the start.

[Scooterman]

Somewhere I already made a list of what you should buy initially in a chair. Have a read through my thread here from the start.

Sorry I know you have. I didn't like to mention too much about the chair I've got my eye on, as I was worried about someone else buying it . Basically the chair I have my eye on is a Salsa r2 with elevate+tilt+recline. Initially I didn't think I wanted a chair with elevate+tilt but have now decided I do (I can take or leave recline). Also the chair has 70 degree leg hangers.
You are right I should read back through this thread as you suggest. Sometimes the lazy option is type a new/repeat question

[Burgerman]

What motors?
What controller?
What power module?
Powered legs?
What arm type?

[Burgerman]

You will find most are 90A in place of 120A unless ordered otherwise.
Also can be r-net or Vr2.
Also most have horid wobbly lift up arms. And a loose weak too low, and too outboard swing away.
And most have 14 inch tyres/wheels unless ordered with 12.5 ones.
Most are 2 pole, and 4 mph. Some are 2 pole and 6 mph. You want 4 pole.
Most have unbelievable headrests!
All have the seating way too far forwards.
All have 7 inch long push handles. Often with an extra 7 inches to mount a headrest...
Most have the back configured too low. And the arms too.
All need the thing reprogramming.

[Scooterman]

What motors?
What controller?
What power module?
Powered legs?
What arm type?

10kph 4-pole
R-net LED
VR2 90Ah
70 degree swing aways
12.5" solid drive wheels
9" solid castors
60Ah x 2
30cm lift + 30 degree tilt
EDIT: flip up armrests

[CPguy]

R-net LED and VR2 90A is not possible. Either both R-Net or both VR2. Check again!

[Burgerman]

Then you need only, 70/80Ah batteries, or lithium.
Seat moving back (which may or may not be easy depending on a few things).
Centre footplate (bolts straight on)
Swing away and pod positioning means
Programming
Headrest dealing with
Arms reconfiguring or better still aquire some single post ones.
Wheels if you wish, and tyres regardless.

[Scooterman]

Then you need only, 70/80Ah batteries, or lithium.
Seat moving back (which may or may not be easy depending on a few things).
Centre footplate (bolts straight on)
Swing away and pod positioning means
Programming
Headrest dealing with
Arms reconfiguring or better still aquire some single post ones.
Wheels if you wish, and tyres regardless.

Excellent! Thank you BM.
(Rover220 can sort me re the centre footplate)