Battery ADD on pack - First Attempt -

[Burgerman]

A 24Ah add on, 16 cells?
Will increase your range, over and above a group 24 setup by about 30 to 45% over what you had. So a bit more than a third.

12 miles will become approx 17 miles. 20m would become about 32m for eg. Maybe a little more because you are reducing the capacity lost from your lead bricks due to peukert. (assuming healthy lead bricks, which by the time you use this they probably wont be).

[expresso]

I am excited either way just to do it - and learning along the way - i am keeping both my chairs and extra set of MK Gel fully charged all winter long - but they were used all summer long so wont be brand new - this ADD on is going on the P222se which have the PC 1500 in there now - i am hoping to get another summer at least out of them -

if i notice they are not holding up enough - i can swap out and put the MK Gel i have sitting around - they were given to me new - but i had already put the PC 1500 in there so i am just keeping them fully charged - till i need them - and hope i can get at least one summer out of them -

i guess what ever i get extra is good with the ADD on - and should expect it to be even better with a Brand New Pair - i will use GPS to figure out the miles i do - and i am using it for the Speed - turns out i need to be out in the open more moving - and it seems to give the correct speed more or less - since it dosnt show half miles - just 7 or 8 or 9 etc, - if its hits 7/12 mph - not sure what it would show - 7 or 8 ?

either way - i am getting the correct speed with the new motors - it may be not always 8.5 - i see it hit 8 at times - but the avg. is always about 6.5 - more or less - from stopping turning etc, - what i dont get is sometimes it shows 11 mph as max speed - now i know it am not doing that much -

[Burgerman]

IF you buy one of these:
http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/st ... lyzer.html

You can measure how many Ah, or watt hours you use as you drive. Or as you charge. On your add on battery or your chairs batteries. Or both together...
And read Volts, time since you started off (connected up) or read real time Battery Amps as you turn or accelerate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfs4Bs3H7gw Testing a plane motor. He ignores Ah but that's interesting too to us.

I use one of these to see for eg how many Ah or Watt hours it takes to go to the bank and back. Then I can see exactly how different chairs compare. And how things like tyre pressures or temperatures affect things. It allows me to see that I only really get under 40Ah from my Odyssey batteries before the chair literally stops. And so on. I added an Anderson connector to each end. So I can put it on a charger, or on a motor, or on a battery to powerchair cable, etc. As I want. And its pretty accurate too - at least at the power levels we use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxv9Rozs774 Detailed examination.

And for solar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-PcDqqYZOc or anything really.

But if you or anyone is interested in:
- how many Ah or Watt/hours you put back into any powerchair at night? (put it on the charger)
- how many Ah or Watt/hours you used on a particular trip, or the ISO tennis court test, or a typical day, or to see which chair is the most efficient? (plug it between batteries and powerchair)
- your chargers output in Amps, its charge voltage, the actual amount of watt hours it returns, its float voltage, etc. (put it on the charger cable!)
- or trying to diagnose problems, checking battery voltage as you drive, seeing voltage drop in real time, etc...

I use one when I do almost everything! They are very informative and cheap!

[expresso]

Very nice - fairly simple also - i would add this between the ADD on pack and my chair wire - and thats it -

it comes with bare wires on both ends - you just add the SB50 on each side and done - - Can i charge with it connected also - just leave it in the Chain

[shirley_hkg]

Oh ok - i though he used an ADD On - from the last picture i seen

so he has a full chair pack - nice -

that sounded great for just a Add on

Don't get sad. I still did 35 miles @charge with that 5 years old 40Ah add-on together with a pair of 10 years old G24 MK GEL, before I retired them.

Of course it was not done on pavement. I run on side of the road , most of the time.

[expresso]

whow thats pretty impressive - you must have been using more of the 40 ah than the MK Gels - at 10 years - i dont think i ever had them more than two years at best -

thats before i started to really ride - now one good summer - maybe two if i am lucky- i will find out soon once this is done - my 8 cells are still in HK - DHL - Customs i guess

no date yet of delivery -i am sure by new years at least - i should have them or a date of delivery

[Burgerman]

Brushless = more distance per Ah.

[Burgerman]

it comes with bare wires on both ends - you just add the SB50 on each side and done - - Can i charge with it connected also - just leave it in the Chain

Well only if you want it to count backwards or negative numbers. Actually not sure what it will do when it reaches zero. Will test it today! Regeneration makes it count back. So if you were to use say 10Ah and leave it powered up, then it will count back to zero Ah as you charge. But you always put back a bit more than you take out. So it will either stop at zero, start counting minus numbers, or start counting down from its max of 64.999Ah. Not sure which!

Ideally you would connect it the other way. And count up from zero as you charge.

[Burgerman]

Interestingly these don't read anything in reverse situations. So unless you turn it around, charging wont affect the figures or change them.

[expresso]

I am not sure what that means - Can i connect this in the chain - between the ADD on pack and the chair lead ? - would that be correct to get the figures - and not loose them -

would i have to disconnect it when charging ?

[Burgerman]

Depends what you want to measure.

[expresso]

if i can just connect it between the battery add on and the chair lead that i made for charging - that easy - if that would record the AH used or the AH left etc, ? what ever it can do - i am not looking for anything specific -

but if it can tell me what AH is left etc, - or even how much i used - thats nice to know

Also by the way - Merry Xmas BM , Shirley and every one else here - i know i drive you crazy BM with my way of understanding - but i am making a effort - i am will see it thru - good or bad - i went the BMS this time - but will do with out BMS when doing the whole chair -

so bear with me with this BMS - i know you are really against it and for good reasons - i have faith shirley will do a good job and hopefully i get a chance to report back on it in the summer -


going ahead of myself - the balance cable you made - with the PL8 charger cable - the power leads - i see they come already with 40A fuses built in - if thats the case - i wouldnt even need to add my own ? am i right -

but if they blow for some reason - i have to take apart the cable - to get to them - so maybe not a good idea ? this way the fuse would be on the cable end off the chair - not the cable connected to the battery pack - chair side -

it would be easy to have the fuse on the outside cable - never have to open the chair to change the fuse if needed - of course it shouldnt blow to begin with if done correctly -

[Burgerman]

going ahead of myself - the balance cable you made - with the PL8 charger cable - the power leads - i see they come already with 40A fuses built in - if that's the case - i wouldn't even need to add my own ? am i right -

No they are too short. I used one half (the bit that has the safe connectors) and added my own wires from fuses to the Sub D connector. You don't need to worry. They are easy to solder. Just do it fast. You will need some http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Clear-Transpa ... 0988525633

As for where that meter goes, it depends what you want to measure! And in which direction.
It goes between charger and battery or batteries if charging.
Between battery add on and chair to see what came out of that battery.
Between chair and batteries to find Ah used per trip/mile total. And to see voltage drop, max current, etc...

[robnnorthaustin]

I bought 4 of these awhile back and added one to each charger so I always know how many amps,AH, and the progress of my charging...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141437319191?ss ... 1436.l2649

On this meter it does not measure amps backwards so you have to insert it the direction you need to measure the amperage correctly. I also fitted one with Andersons to use on the scooter but because it is not convient for me to fit I don't use it that way often. I now have a conventional Amp/Volt meter with a shunt on my outdoor scooter.
I also found a wireless Volt/Amp meter on EBay that I am going to install as soon as it comes in. I found that the gauge of the wires between the shunt and the meter affect the readings so I have tried 3 different size wires along the way. I am looking forward to installing the wireless meter so I can remove the 12 gauge wires I have now. I like the clean look.

[Burgerman]

Those are cheap. But according to what I see on hobby forums a bit erratic hard to get steady readings and not too accurate. But probably OK for seeing what is returned roughly.

[shirley_hkg]

There is no need to change any driving and charging habit, when using add-on.

Just watch your battery gauge as usual.

[expresso]

thats good to know - i just like the idea to see how much i actually used from the ADD ON -

i have some time before this happens - i decide then - if i can just connect it in the chain and not worry about it - thats fine - would be nice to see at the end of the day - how much i used from the ADD On - and or how much is left - how low it got etc, -

its not a must have - i am going to really ride this thing and see how much i can get out of it - 20 to 25 miles - sounds pretty decent - if i can pull that off - - once i feel comfortable with it and the distance i get - i may try going over the GWB -

i have to first ride about 150 city blocks to get there - then ride over it to NJ and back - i was about 15 blocks short before i turned back - i was in a area that i didnt know well enough to get around some spots - in a park - and road kinda ended -

that was with just the PC 1500 - they were new - i bet i could have done it with the ADD ON in place also - On a New set of batteries - who knows what i can do with them this summer - i am determined to use them up fully if they can handle another summer - or else put in MK Gel - which were never used yet - keeping them charged for either chair that needs it

[Burgerman]

thats good to know - i just like the idea to see how much i actually used from the ADD ON -

Then simply add the gauge to the charger (total returned for chair).
OR
To the add-on (only the add on measured)

Again, the better PL8 charger would have shown you in figures exactly how many Ah you returned, how much was left. And shown you a graph of the charge curves, cell voltage curves, balance as it happens graphically, Internal resistance, etc. How much each of the 8 cell groups were out of balance, and any problems as you charge on your laptop screen in real time.

OR it can charge your lead/Lithium/BMS all at the same time like a mobility charger and still give you Ah returned, etc. At up to 40A! And fast charge from any car easily while you are out if needed. Weighs about 2 lb!

i have some time before this happens - i decide then - if i can just connect it in the chain and not worry about it - thats fine - would be nice to see at the end of the day - how much i used from the ADD On - and or how much is left - how low it got etc, -

You will be fine just watching the chairs gauge as normal. The point where you run out is much the same. Actually a bit lower... More in reserve than you think.

If you want to know how many Ah the TOTAL used is per trip, and watch it go up in Ah as you drive, then add it between the batteries and the powerchair controller, and watch it as you drive! It will show:

Battery Amps you are using in real time as you climb a hill etc.
Watt Hours used total, and real time. So you can see it draw 2000 watts climbing a steep slope!
Ah used counts up as you drive.
Battery volts in real time.
Time elapsed since you plugged in and started pulling more than an amp.
Voltage difference between highest/lowest in use.

[expresso]

I see how the PL8 comes in handy in so many ways - i like to know the details also - and seeing it on the computer is great - i can deal with computers - i feel better knowing whats going on - so it looks as if i will at some point i will get the PL8 -

if i continue with this hobby - and do the whole chair - its a must at that point -

the easiest way for me would be to put it on the charger end and get the AH it puts back in - which is a good idea of how much was used anyway - so that what i would do if i get this item later just to see - or at that point - i may just decide to get the PL8 and learn how to use it to practice on the ADD ON -

but i am talking ahead of myself - i get excited and think ahead - i dont drive cars now - i sold my car a few years back - since i wasnt using it and it was just sitting in a garage - i put alot into that car - 1993 Cobra Mustang - worked the whole engine - rear - suspension - all that stuff we do - of course never get your money back on resale -

Lets say for a moment - you have a chair - full chair done with these Cells - lets say i didnt charge and used the chair for 3 days - and find myself outside needing a charge - if i had the PL8 - PSU and cables with me - would i be able to do a fast charge for a hour lets say - just to get home - and then fully charge balance etc, -

does that harm it - whats the pros and cons of doing that - i know its not great with Lead to do it - but who cares about Lead - if you need it - you do it and get home - - does the same apply with the Lithium ?

[Burgerman]

Lithium doesn't much care.

It actually prefers to be half full.
Hates being very empty at 0 or very full at 100%
Also hates being discharged fast. But that just depends how big your battery is. BIG is obviously better.

Last forever if you keep it somewhere between 90% to 10% full. That charger charges at 40A so if in a hurry you can put back 40Ah in 1 hour. That's a LOT! See below:

That's the same as a fully charged Lead grp24 from CHAIR STOPPED and out of power, up to 100% full.
In 2 hours you can put back 80Ah. (2 complete sets of group 24 lead batteries)
In 3 hours you can put back almost 120Ah (3 sets, 6 MKs...)

Remember a lead battery charges slower as you charge. Takes 16 hours to 100%.
And a mobility charger is just 230 watts. (8Ax28.8V)

The PL8 is 1344 Watts! At full power. But can also charge a watch battery.

[expresso]

thats what i like - even if its never needed to be done that way - i like the option and the speed - most likely never drain it that low that i need a charge outside - the purpose for me is to not need to charge outside and now worry - and not carry any chargers if i have the whole pack - but i am so used to having a charger - i may feel worried at first till i get used to how it reacts -

this is mostly summer time - i am planning ahead again - with the full pack - would be curious if i can make it to my old area where i used to live - With lead i got a decent distance there - i turned back - my goal that day was just to see how far i can make it - i was about 70 blocks on the Map away - i may have even made it there - but not back -

so with a full pack - would be a trip to try - going and back on one full charge - i havnt decided if i really will do that trip - but would nice - take a long time - and i am sure i will take the charger with me just in case - to feel safe -

So if the PL8 wires comes with 40 A fuse - you can still charge at 40 A and not worry ? i would be worried thinking it will blow the fuse - i would put it at 35 A charge to feel safe and not worry about it -

i was just getting involved with my audio stuff again before this got my attention this is new so will be a good learning experience for me -

[Burgerman]

So if the PL8 wires comes with 40 A fuse - you can still charge at 40 A and not worry ? i would be worried thinking it will blow the fuse - i would put it at 35 A charge to feel safe and not worry about it -

Yes.

[shirley_hkg]

Testing your BMS with a pack of crab 15Ah cells.

BMS is working as it is.

[expresso]

Hi Shirley - very nice - i hope i get my other shipment soon - its still there in Hong Kong - DHL - -

when i finally get this done - do i need to tape it to the pack and just wrap it with some of this tape

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DVC ... ge_o01_s00

i was thinking of using this to tape it down on the side maybe and tape the battery pack also - on top - bottom and then sit it in a container of some sort - i may have to make something - and in the backpack - -

at first i was thinking of just placing it the way it is - NO Container and just put it in the backpack - would be a tight fit so it wont move around much - i will have to try a few different ways once its all done - i can see how it fits

[shirley_hkg]

I usually film wrap them together , so that I can see the balance LEDs lite up.

BM, are you affected by the heavy rain ?

[Burgerman]

No, but I can swim. Its only really a few small areas actually flood. And the other side/north of the country. Actually not raining much for days here and so warm for december that instead of ice and cold my trees have started to blossom! I have pink flowers all over my cherry blossom trees. If this is global warming, get me some more!

That said, I just looked at this, and it may now affect more places than I thought. In a few hours. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35181139 so maybe worse than I thought. Still not here though. But the news tends to make things look as bad as possible as it thrives on drama. We will see. No doubt there will be some more affected. Tomorrow there will be a reporter stood in the deepest bit with a microphone.

[expresso]

Whow didnt know thats happening where you are BM ? i dont watch pay attention to the news anymore - its all bullshit - but sometimes they are close and accurate -

hope you live on higher ground - i just made it here when we got hit with - Sandy - thats the worst i seen here - and where i live is just blocks away from a strip of Ave. with hospitals - that got all flooded - closed - - generators where in the basement - go figure - its amazing how stupid people are.

i am up higher so we were out of the Flood zone - by a few blocks and didnt have to leave - but many had to leave - we lost electricity for a week here - sucks - my building got the water running in two days - we have a generator on the roof but it was not hooked up to run water - it is now - - we had the elevators working but no lights

ever since then - i got more involved with the battery back up - thats why i have a pair of MK 24 sitting just for that purpose - with an inventor - in the event - at very least i have light in my apt. -

Shirley i will do that then - clear wrap from Staples - to see it also - good to see whats going on - not that i would know what i am looking at anyway but at least i can relate it to you here -

i just got my heatshrink tubing and not as i expected - it was a mix - but just not enough of the larger sizes - me not know what size i may need - so i think it was a waste what i purchased - too many thin ones which i dont think i will use -

BM - the bolts you use are allen heads - M6 - but how long are they - 8mm or 10mm etc, - i will hold off on the bolts for this ADD on - but the whole chair - i want to be extra safe and be sure i dont get too long and damage the cells -

[expresso]

I figure i check the first batch i got in - since i really didnt open them all - with my luck - they send me the wrong size or something - so i took each out to check - same batch dates waiting on another 8

[expresso]

few more - i havnt check the volts - i will wait for the rest - label each cell - check volts - write it down and post it then

[Burgerman]

Just back from the pub. (social support network).

I notice 2 things!
1. Many people with water issues on the news. With wellington boots, canoes, etc. Its raining. And every reporter is in the middle of the deepest part.
2. Pictures of cells?

OK. They look ok. They seem very pale. I presume you need a better camera! Rather than they are not very well. They actually look quite pretty and dark blue in real life?

Seriously, do they already have Allen bolt?
And just check voltage to be sure no low/faulty ones.