PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

[woodygb]

I'm assuming that it's a Prolific chip based lead.

http://www.crercc.com/comport.html

[Burgerman]

PROGRAMMING CABLE - USB PROLIFIC DRIVER FOR WINDOWS

Microsoft XP, Vista, 7 & 8



Prolific 3.2.0.0 is the recommended driver

Installing a new Windows Driver 3.2.0.0



Note, Win 7:

Windows 7 may try to update this driver in the future. If this occurs, turn off automatic updates.

Key info here!!! NOTHING else works. Correct port in program. Correct port in windows. Correct driver. THEN it works. Try all ports. Only 1 com port works on my laptop, and a different one on my desktop. And try all USBs too, not all are equal.

[MrMobility]

I am behined on this, what does this cable do ? Will it interface the level c software to win 7 with orwith out the pgdt cable ?

[Burgerman]

This DIY cable means you have a PC software (all, inc OEM) that talks to the powerchair or scooter via USB rather than the now defunct serial port.

Yes, I use it with Win7 64 bit, and the OEM version (Manufacturing) PG Drives software. Works perfectly.

[ellaguru2u@gmail.com]

I've been looking for a KPG-4 but radioarena have no stock.

Would this cable be any good?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-Programmi ... 3f27f782ea

[woodygb]

I've had success with that type.

[ellaguru2u@gmail.com]

Thanks, I'll get one ordered

[ellaguru2u@gmail.com]

I hate windows, there I've got that off my chest.

I have 2 P&G Pilot+ controlled wheelchairs and recently I had a flashing light fault show up on one. Long story short but I think I managed to register the fault on the other chair whilst eliminating what was at fault.
Chair 1 has cleared its fault after leaving for a week but the other persists.
I am hoping to clear the fault by using PGDT software and this is where I am so far.
Bought cable, diode & plug, made cable.
Downloaded PGDT software and installed it on old laptop running vista.
Installed USB drivers that came with cable.
Connected the chair to laptop to be informed by windows that USB drivers were needed.
Went through drivers on disc ... no good. Went on line and downloaded drivers ... still no good.

1. Will PGDT clear faults or am I wasting my time.
2. Will PGDT work with Vista?

Collective thoughts much appreciated.

[Burgerman]

vista is the worst. slow and nothing seems to work.

but my gf laptop has the software on it and works fine.

No it wont clear faults, only a fault log.

[woodygb]

Went on line and downloaded drivers ... still no good

Define exactly what is no good ...the drivers haven't installed properly or the lead doesn't appear to work?

[falco peregrinus]

The controller logs all faults, and retains a record of the faults in the log file even after the fault has been fixed. A lot of the faults that are recorded in the log file don't ever result in a fault indication to the user, so are a surprise when you see them. They clear by themselves, so there is no need to tell the user, so the controller doesn't. For some faults, however, it is important that the user knows about them, and they trigger an error code, often a pattern of flashing lights on the joystick module.
In a car, you can clear the fault log on the computer and see if it shows up again, to find out if the fault is still there or has been fixed. I guess you can use the same strategy on a wheelchair controller as well, but my expectation is that the fault that the wheelchair is reporting is genuine, and needs to be fixed before the flashing lights will stop. There are manuals on the internet that will help you identify the meaning of the flashing sequence. Most likely you don't have to have a manual for your particular model of controller - probably any controller from that manufacturer will have the same meaning for the same flash codes. Somewhere on this website I put up a list of google search strings which will find a heap of manuals for PGDT controllers. One of those should be of help to you.
I think you'll find the fault is current and genuine, and not merely the presence of a troublesome entry in the fault log. (Unlike in a car, sometimes, in which it sometimes can be just a troublesome entry in the fault log that is causing the warning light on the dashboard.)
Here's a link to my post listing a heap of manuals.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3461&p=46276&hilit=pgdt+manuals#p46276
Falco

[LROBBINS]

Falco's description would almost equally apply to Dynamic systems. A fault indication on the display means that there is a fault NOW. Once that's been fixed, there's still a record of it in the fault log (as long as the log's limited memory hasn't been exceeded). The Dynamic programming software does include a utility for deleting the entire log so that you can see if the fault recurs. The one thing I would like it to have that it doesn't have is a date and time stamp of the entries. (On the system I'm working on, I've included a micro-SD card and a real-time-clock so there'll be plenty of memory and a date/time note for each entry. The messages will also be something closer to plain English rather than the very short ones Dynamic has to use. What I won't have, at least not for now, is a way to program and read from all the nodes by connecting the computer to only one of them. When an Arduino upload via CAN library becomes available, and some people are working on that, this too should become possible, except for the Roboteq itself that needs completely different PC software.)

Ciao,
Lenny

[ellaguru2u@gmail.com]

Went on line and downloaded drivers ... still no good

Define exactly what is no good ...the drivers haven't installed properly or the lead doesn't appear to work?

Sorry ... the drivers failed to instal. That is they installed Ok but when the lead was plugged in Vista decided they needed installing again and they failed to instal. Repeated 4 or 5 times with same result.

[ellaguru2u@gmail.com]

I think you'll find the fault is current and genuine, and not merely the presence of a troublesome entry in the fault log.

The problem started when I disassembled the chair to go on holiday and the faults showed up on assembly. When I got home I took the other, working, chair and swapped a combo of joystick/controller to isolate the problem. I succeeded in transferring the fault to the other chair.
I then sought advice and was told the original fault may have been caused by the joystick being out of position on assembly and to leave both chairs for at least 48 hrs and the faults may sort themselves out - which they did on the first chair but the second chair (which had no faults to start with) still persists with the fault code.

[ellaguru2u@gmail.com]

The net result of the my holiday woes was I ended up pushing a power chair up and down coastal paths with the motors disengaged and I decided that I would buy a PP1b/c to take with me on holiday in case this ever happened again. Having found them to be like rocking horse pooh I have pursued the PGDT path but I will probably end up buying a spare pilot+ joystick and controller. Anyone have any for sale?

[Burgerman]

I then sought advice and was told the original fault may have been caused by the joystick being out of position on assembly and to leave both chairs for at least 48 hrs and the faults may sort themselves out - which they did on the first chair but the second chair (which had no faults to start with) still persists with the fault code.

No idea where that advice came from but unless you had just removed them from a freezer or something it makes no sense.

[woodygb]

Did you follow the tutorial here?
http://www.crercc.com/comport.html
NOTE: That the driver that the tutorial mentions and the drive package that you will download is different ...don't worry.

Should that fail I can supply a Vista specific driver.

To obtain a joystick it would be useful to know which model you require...Pilot+ ,VSI or VR2?

[ellaguru2u@gmail.com]

Yes they're both Pilot+

[Spikenme]

hi,I have been pouring over a few of the threads here over the last few days and I am amazed at the width and breadth of knowledge that exists here it is awesome. I wasn't sure where to post these questions but thought this was a relevant thread. I have a couple of questions regarding the controller I got with my chair in 1999. I purchased it for $800 is QTronics v.1(Penny and Giles). the interface for my programmer has things like acceleration deceleration forward speed and the like it.is similar to the interface you guys are linking up to the computer using the software and cable that you are making. The other question I had was does anybody know what joystick throw and steer control are and what their functions might be as well as which setting might be good for these.
cheers
Kent

[woodygb]

Joystick Throw


This allows you program the control system so that full speed can be reached with a reduced joystick movement (throw). This is particularly useful for users with limited hand movement.

Each joystick axis (forward, reverse, left and right) can be set individually. The settings can be made by entering values on the screen, or manually by deflecting the joystick and storing the actual value of deflection. For this manual adjustment, select the Auto option and follow the on-screen instructions.

[Spikenme]

thanks Woody,
I got this programmer with my quickie 525 when I was introduced to chair life in 1999. It works with my quantum blast as well which is cool. I notice that the programming available on the computer screenshots on Mr. mobilities eBay page are a lot more in-depth, which I'm assuming is what most of you are accessing. Most of that stuff is Greek to me so I think the programmer I have is sufficient. Although it would be nice to change the amps, at least it looks like you can do that on a computer. The other question I have is I have a control called steer control what is that related to? Is it similar to joystick throw?

Cheers
Kent

[woodygb]

No mention that I can find of Steer Control...Steer Correct perhaps?

Steer Correct

This parameter is used to compensate for mis-matches in motor speeds, thereby ensuring the wheelchair drives in a straight line when the joystick is deflected straight ahead.

The adjustment range is –9 to +9 in steps of 1. If the motors are perfectly matched the parameter setting should be zero. If the wheelchair is veering to either side when the joystick is pointed straight ahead, then the parameter value requires adjustment.

This parameter will be set by the wheelchair manufacturer, but if a motor is replaced then a new setting may be necessary.

Your right that your dealer version will not display all the parameters or allow you to alter them.

[falco peregrinus]

If you see my post on this link, it will point you towards heaps of manuals for PGDT controllers that will help considerably. Burgerman has also done an excellent job of translating PGDT Speak into Plain English on his website, too.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3461&p=46276&hilit=pgdt+google+manual#p46276

You don't have to have a manual for your particular controller, or even for your brand of controller in many instances. Most of the parameters are common to all wheelchair controllers. The names might be a wee bit different, but the essence of them is much the same. (The names, in many instances, are quite misleading. For example, anything labelled "acceleration" is actually the inverse of "delay before it does what you tell it to do". Ie, to get zero delay, set Anything Acceleration to 100.)
The best source of information for you that I can point you too is Burgerman's web pages, and the manuals for the PGDT VR2.
Falco.

[Burgerman]

And deceleration. EG TURN DECELERATION. So it stops turning when you do! Instead of later on.

[expresso]

i may be getting a new chair - 636 or if i can a 646 - quickie - i dont know if i can get the R net joystick - etc, - but if i do end up with the R net - can i use the same programming software i have to program the R net ?

what i have now i use on my P222 with the pilot + joystick -


if this wont work - how can i get a copy of the PC software for the R net ? i have the cable already which i purchased new from PG


i am not sure if i will end up with the R net or the VR2 --

thanks -

[Burgerman]

With PG stuff its like this.

The software and cable you have for pilot plus will program almost all scooters and powerchairs other than R-net.

R-net requires an OEM level dongle and R-net only PC software and cable. Where you get this is either a friendly service or powerchair builder that has it or from PG themselves if you can persuade them you know enough.

It also has other options. Either built in or PC or Hand Held options that don't let you do very much.

[expresso]

ok so if i do end up with R net - i am out of luck in the programming part of things -

what big of a difference is there between the VR2 and the R net joystick - besides the color screen etc, - is this just a matter of looks - or any real difference in power etc, -

i mean if the chair is set to go 8.5 - does it matter which joystick you get - if they both do 8.5 anyway - ? not sure if its worth it the extra money and then have no way to program it myself -

this is a big - IF - about which chair i get - i know the 636 would be ok to get - but i like the 646 speed - only reason for wanting it - over the 636 --

[Burgerman]

The R-net 120Amps. And generally 8mph chairs need this or suffer less stall torque on thresholds etc due to taller gearing. And more options for expansion and programming. AND importantly they have the lowest internal resistance. So less heat problems on faster chairs.

Pilot plus were 50, 80, 100 variants.

VR2 and VSI to 90 I think? Never really bothered to look very closely at the budget controllers.

[expresso]

yes thats true - the VR2 is 90 - R net - i think is 120 - how much of a difference that would make to me - is not clear - since i never had any problems even with a 80 amp version on my older chair - i never felt it stalling etc, -

it will come down to the vendor - insurance - - which it wont cover - so its up to me for the difference in price - if the vendor even wants to do that - most dont bother - either insurance covers it or you dont get it - -

well see - if they will let me do it and get what i want - and pay the difference - question is - would it be worth it depending on the prices - and then i wont have a way to program the R net - as compared to the VR2 -

i like my compact Pilot + - wish i could get that again on the new chair - my choices are VR2 - insurance covered -etc, 636 - or push for the speed which i love and want -

i dont see why the price has to be so much more for the high speed motors - they really cost the same in the parts section - i like to speed and get around fast this way - i really dont feel any less thing Neg. about the high speed - - one thing - battery life - thats worse - compared to the slower speed version -

but i make it work - and carry a charger all the time - i did pretty good with the P222 this summer - as long as i have fresh new battery each summer - that should be fine - but mostly they like to stretch it to two years at least - before changing them - and i get it - most people make them last longer - but they also dont ride hard and long much - i drain mines each day in the summer - down to the Red - and charge over night - easy 12 hours -

i had some fun in the snow today - doing donuts - was nice - plenty of power

[Burgerman]

i dont see why the price has to be so much more for the high speed motors - they really cost the same in the parts section - i like to speed and get around fast this way - i really dont feel any less thing Neg. about the high speed - - one thing - battery life - thats worse - compared to the slower speed version -

Price is higher because they can And usually because a larger amp more expensive controller is needed to match the taller geared motors. And sometimes heavier cables/breakers etc.

A general rule: 50Amp controller is enough for 4mph chairs. An 80 Amp controller is enough for 6mph chairs. A 120 amp controller is enough for 8mph chairs. Every time you increase speed by gearing taller you reduce maximum torque level. So you need to increase max Amps to "repair" the problem. This costs more. And uses up more battery power too, at ALL speeds. So faster needs bigger batteries too for the same range or service life.

You only NEED max amps to dig out of a hole. To start a turn, maybe on a slope, or to drive up a curb from a standstill, At all other times you just don't. You do need proportionally more but maybe nothing like the max level.

And also if the chair has stock mushy programming like 99 percent do, you will never see the chair reach its max torque level often either. So again this disguises it. Skidding in snow requires very few amps. Drive up to a curb. Stop touching it. Will it drive up? Or do you need a run up (momentum)? THIS is torque.

Also a chair and occupant that is half the weight, will only use half the amps for any given manoeuvre... Up to the maximum.

So speed, weight, programming, and user expectations all matter. Most people never see the need for max amps. Some always do.

I used to drive a turbocharged nitrous injected Suzuki 1100 motorcycle several in fact over the years! It had about 300bhp plus extra 70bhp nitrous on a button... That's twice as much power as todays fastest 190mph production bikes. Which are already faster accelerating than ANY production car at any cost. And most wild race cars. So a little mad to put it mildly on a ride to work.

Did I ever use all of its power? Yes. EVERY single day - if only for a few seconds at a time. Is it needed? No of course not. Just 10% of that power would allow a bike to go 100mph "eventually". But nice to have! It mostly turned road tyres to $moke and black sticky gum as you accelerated too hard just for fun. At ANY speed this side of 150mph. Totally wild and addictive. To get wheelies or to accelerate hard on the road, you had to accelerate more gently on purpose. TOO MUCH power.

With a powerchair which is just the opposite to the above, it comes down to users, programming, and expectations. Once "rolling" you don't need many amps. It drops away fast as you move from a standstill. At stall you do.

Watch http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/motoramps.mp4

Remember that this is a 6mph motor. An 8.5mph one would NEED proportionally more amps. To maintain the same turn acceleration, turn rate etc in the same circumstances. So about 130Amps!

Or it would not respond as well and I would feel the chair not "follow" the stick accurately and catch up later. To me that's not adequate. Mushy programming delays in most chairs disguises this.