PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

[expresso]

Your Right - i agree with more power the better - in all cases - its never a bad thing to have more than you would need - when i did drive - it was a Cobra Mustang which i had the whole engine redone - theres no better feeling than to have the power on tap -

i just feel that the price they charge is way too much for the small increase in speed - power difference - i mean - $2000 more ? just the motors - then you would need the upgraded controller - at $950 - so easily $3000 more - from a 636 to a 646 -

6.5 over 8.5 - thats my only problem - i may be talking ahead of myself here - i have no indication that i can even get the 646 even if i wanted to pay the difference - i may have no choice this time around like i did with the P222 Se - i am used to the speed of those motors - i would like to stay at that speed -

hopefully i will find out next week - which way this will go - its actually cheaper to get the 646 rather than get the 636 and add the upgrade options - if i get that choice - - i would like to do it by having them get the 646 and i pay the difference that way - but they may not let me do it that way if they even let me do any upgrades at all -

to be honest - i really dont like those huge joysticks - even though they are color and have more information - distance - speed etc, - nice little features but very big compared to my Pilot + i may just go for the Led version with no screen etc, basic looking VR2 look but its R net - if getting the 646 or upgrading the motors from the 636 order form - i have to get the R net joystick etc, - if i pick the basic NC joystick - it looks very similar to the VR 2 in looks - then the upgrade to that is the color screen with speed control knob etc, - which i like to have also since i am used to adjusting the speed that way -

i may be getting excited over nothing - i will know more information of my options if any later next week when i have my appt. - i wanted to get some info in case it does happen - which would be the best way to go - if i do end up with R net - i be stuck with no programming options that i can do on my own - i dont want that reason to be the only reason not to get the R net - and if i can get the 646 - 8.5 - i will take it and deal with the programming after i get it

i have to say Quickie chairs come programmed full speed and very snappy from the start - i had to actually slow it down - make it smoother on my P222 - full speed - but smoother on the other options - and slower pick up speed or else i would wheelie every time i tough the joystick to move - i am in the City - cant have it that way - i would run everyone over

[Burgerman]

i have to say Quickie chairs come programmed full speed and very snappy from the start - i had to actually slow it down - make it smoother on my P222 - full speed - but smoother on the other options - and slower pick up speed or else i would wheelie every time i tough the joystick to move - i am in the City - cant have it that way - i would run everyone over

No.
ALL 4 6 or 8mph chairs will go full speed.

But they are all FAR from snappy! I mean ALL chairs have turn accelerations, and turn decelerations, as well as LOW SPEED turn accelerations and decelerations programmed in, in large amounts.

This means NONE are "snappy" as you put it. All are hard to steer accurately and difficult to predict. These settings are designed to allow those with zero joystick skills, that mash the joystick around as if they are stirring a pudding, to be able to "use" a powerchair. For all those with real skills they are a massive liability and a huge frustrating hindrance.

Once removed (NEEDS OEM PROGRAMMER ACCESS) the thing will turn stop turning, and go where you point it when you tell it. Not at some unknown point later on as all stock chairs do. Just like all cars do, or a computer mouse does, or an aircraft does.

[LROBBINS]

or an aircraft does

There's a tremendous range in responsiveness of different aircraft, even light aircraft. If you compare a Piper Cherokee to a Cessna 172 to a Grumman Tiger you would find ailerons that range from truck like, to sedan like to sports-car like. All of them will get you from A to B, and which you find more pleasant depends a bit on whether you like to fly or be flown. Heavy aircraft, I'm told, but have no experience piloting them so I can only go by what I've heard, are generally even more sluggish, not so much in changing flight attitude but in changing power -- it takes jet engines quite some time to spool up. Ciao, Lenny

[nandol]

olá expresso,i have 2 chairs with 14km speed and love it...
if money´s a problema,why dont you buy rnet & schmitt motors directly to the manufacturer...? you can save a lot.

obg

[expresso]

what i mean by snappy is - mines came way to sensitive - so even a small touch of the joystick sends it turning fast and moving forward too fast - jumpy etc, - i had to tone it down to my hand etc, so i can go slow when i want around people and fast also -

well the money is always a issue you know - i rather not have to spend that much just to get my speed - but i am not the boss here - and if they even let me do it my way and pay the difference - i will just do it - - buying motors direct and replacing etc, - thats out of the question - i am not able to do that - dont have anyone who i can trust enough or knows what they are doing - i can direct and supervise it but cant do it myself -

only way to do that is when you go private and pay for everything yourself - etc, - - for example - if you changed the motors after they get you the chair one way - and you decided to change them etc, or do something that is not on the factory order form - if it ever needs repairs - would be a problem - they will follow the order Serial number to replace parts etc, -

your just asking for trouble if you do that - in my case - best thing is to get it from them - insurance etc, and pay for the upgrades etc, what ever it may be - this way - it will come to you all done and its on the order form - Serial number all reflect it - in case for service in the future - less headaches and will be covered since you got it that way from the start - its not something you did on your own after -

i agree - i love my speed - 8.5 is what its rated at - not sure if it does that cant clock it - but all i know its faster than any wheelchair where i am and feels great - - i have one settings just a bit slower in top speed so i dont leave the others behind too far when i am alone - i can go full speed - -

[Burgerman]

I suspect you have hand or coordination problems. In which case there's no option but to have a mas of delays et up. If not maybe you are holding the joystick wrong. You MUST have your hand on the side of the pod for stability, and your thumb on the joystick so it can be mm perfect even over bumps etc.. If this is the case, you may never have full accurate control.

The rate that you accelerate or turn, or the speed you travel at is proportional and instant if set up correctly for normal hands. It simply turns, or goes, at the speed you tell it. WHEN you tell it. But you must be mm perfect.

I have only one profile. Everything set as fast as possible. its inch perfect. But that's really easy to control to any speed I wish, indoors and out by the joystick position alone.

When you drive a car, the steering is direct, instant and directly connected mechanically. Zero delay. Same with forward speed. You control that with the throttle. Or drive into the back of the car in front.

[LROBBINS]

Expresso,

Since you report that the touchiness happens particularly when you just touch the joystick, perhaps there's another programming parameter that you could adjust and still leave turn responsiveness(ex) at its (their) maximum. This is "deadband", an area around neutral in which there is no response. My recollection is that Nandol had a similar problem and that making the deadband a bit larger was very helpful. Do remember that if you set accelerations to their maxima you will probably also have to reduce the maximum turn rates. What I like to aim for is the most immediate response possible, whether starting or stopping a turn, even at the cost of not being able to turn 90 degrees instantly.

Ciao,
Lenny

[Burgerman]

Interestingly, I hate having a dead band. It feels odd that there's a dead bit in the middle when say going left/right and just making small corrections, and it makes it harder to guess the correct amount of steering to hit a doorway for e.g.

I actually prefer no dead band at all. Just like my van/bikes/pc mouse steering. Or RC on my planes and helis. But you cant actually do this on mobility controllers for many reasons. In place of a dead band, if its too "touchy" around the centre then I use exponential. Which gives a smooth progression of a non sensitive neutral, but full control at the extremes.

With most good RC systems you can tailor these curves to choice to give instant response along with easy smooth control around the centre.

[LROBBINS]

Yes, exponential curving is a good solution. I don't think of it because it isn't available on Rachi's old DX-SCR (it is available on DX2 systems). I also do have it in the open source CAN-bus system I'm working on. A minimum of deadband is probably unavoidable (and even programming it to 0 probably isn't really zero) - there's always a bit of noise in reading the JS pot and you don't want the chair to be clicking its brakes on at off when the stick is left at 0. One probably can't even feel that amount of deadband, however. Ciao,\Lenny

[Burgerman]

3 different expo curves and adjustable for amount of effect built into roboteq,

And any shape curve you want, built into this: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/12x.htm

That RC transmitter allows for a mass of different mixing, switching, curves, dead-bands, dual rates, expo, channels into one another etc.

Delays are possible as well. As separate acceleration rates (delays called "servo speed") on any of the 12 channels... Where you slow down servo or speed controller (output) response. If only our wheelchair controllers were as good, as programmable, as instant, as low latency and as accurate. You would expect them to be so, but nope! Dead-bands are not required with 2048 resolution.

This delay thing (acceleration/deceleration or "servo speed" or delays, or whatever you want to call it) is only ever used for secondary controls. Say Scale Undercarriage doors, or air brakes etc so they open and close at scale speeds. Never on any of the 3 or 4 primary flight or steering controls. Because that induces pilot "caused" over control, and at times wild oscillations... People spend a small fortune reducing this latency to the absolute minimum with expensive RC systems. So will pay 100s for a fast tail or elevator servo for eg, to get that solid "connected" feel. That "it does what I do" feel.

[expresso]

maybe i have to visit my programming again and see what changes i can make that can improve my riding - i dont recall that many settings - but i agree its how you hold the joystick to start with - and i had a problem with my joystick - it didnt sit in the correct spot for my hand - i had to get Quickie to make a bracket for it - brings it in a inch and up an inch - much better now - i am sure i can fine tune it more - it depends on my hand movement also - or arm position when i sit in the chair - alot of times - riding and going over the bumps etc, moves my position and my arm etc, - which i have to adjust for - for the most part its ok now - but if i can further tune it - - that be great -

i havnt been in the program for a long time now - could be something i overlooked or need a further adjustment change - i dont touch much in there that i dont understand fully - its mostly speed - turning speed - slowing down speed - - etc,

[LROBBINS]

Expresso,

I don't know what controller your chair uses, but you can probably find a place where you can download the full programming manual. Sometimes the explanations are as clear as mud, but sometimes they do help. You are right to not touch settings that you don't understand. Some other useful rules are to (1) change only one thing at a time, (2) make only small changes and (3) if something doesn't feel right, change the program back to where it was before making other changes. Some parameters actually interact with each other, and those interactions are usually not very well described in the manual, so we want to always move from a "known" setup.

Ciao,
Lenny

[Burgerman]

It helps if you get or have a natural grasp of basic physics / engineering.

So you can separate what parameter actually does what. Then you know what to expect as you adjust it.
If you are not sure what some parameter is actually doing, ask on here. Then carefully test - set it to its lowest setting. Then its highest setting. So as to understand what it does.

For e.g. I found it totally impossible to explain the difference between:
low speed turn rate and
low speed turn acceleration and
low speed turn deceleration

for eg to a lady whose chair I programmed a few years ago in the pub. After about an hour trying to show here the affect each has she plainly couldn't feel/understand it.

Even if I set one separate thing to the extreme ends. No amount of clear explaining or diagrams helped her because the didn't see the forces or commands as separate things. She couldn't visualise what each one does. She just didn't get basic physics.

But once I removed all the delay, and REDUCED the turn rates at low and high speeds, she wouldn't let me touch it again in case I "messed" it up!

[expresso]

i have a P222 se - its a Quickie stock controller - with the Pilot + joystick - its not that much in there i dont understand - there is a section which i dont touch - from reading the small help files that pop up when i click on them - it tells me a brief summary of what the function does -

i just mostly used the basic settings - forward speed - - full power setting - turning speed to increase - and decrease turning etc, - i understand those settings - and thats where i usually adjust - to get a smooth transition or try to -

my goal is just to go around people smoothly keeping the speed as i do it - for the most part - its ok how i ended up doing it - but at times i do feel i can further adjust - which takes time - one step at a time etc, - so i never really gave it the time to do it that way -

i had to slow down the forward speed - or else i would wheelie down the block every time i touch push the joystick forward - now i have build up to full speed - i still take off fast enough but slow enough to keep the front wheels on the ground -

the way it came from the factory was way too fast taking off - i left one setting from factory - 5th speed - and never use it - i use 4th which i programmed when alone - and 3th with others just to stay together - i am still ahead some but not much - 2th is in the home and for others to move it around who dont use chairs -

[falco peregrinus]

My VSI controller has the option to have five different programs, but once I had the chair programmed correctly, there was no point having five programs, so I configured the controller to just one program (or "profile", as I think PGDT call it if I remember correctly). Now I turn the chair on and go (without a beep - I configured that out real quick! I always hated that turn-on beep!), regardless of whether I am in open space or around the house. Once you get one program configured correctly, you don't need the other four! (Oh, and the other thing I made sure I changed when I found it was the reversing beep. I turned that on, real quick, because I've had my toes driven over by reversing wheelchairs too often. I don't need it turned on, but the people around me benefit by my having the reversing beep turned on.)
Falco

[Burgerman]

i had to slow down the forward speed - or else i would wheelie down the block every time i touch push the joystick forward - now i have build up to full speed - i still take off fast enough but slow enough to keep the front wheels on the ground -

Why do you shove it so hard forwards? Hand control issues? Or holding the joystick badly?

Mines set to 100 percent acceleration. And max speed. And I never use anything other than the 5 setting. Even indoors. Because its easy to go at 0.01mph if you choose. The joystick is a throttle, not an on off switch.

I can move so slowly, and a couple off mm at a time if needed that no "slow" setting is required. If fact I would LOVE to get some more "jump" out of it for the times I need it.

i just mostly used the basic settings - forward speed - - full power setting - turning speed to increase - and decrease turning etc, - i understand those settings - and thats where i usually adjust - to get a smooth transition or try to -

Then it will never steer properly. Or proportionally or in linear fashion.

[expresso]

i guess it would be different for each user - what works for one person may not work for everyone - you may have much better hand control or arm strength compared to someone else - that makes the world of difference -

i have to keep a few different settings because other in my home move my chair around at times - just using the joystick - they done sit in the chair etc, - so i keep a slow setting for indoors for that purpose and i am fine with it also indoors -

its not like i have a huge home - its an apt. - i tried that full speed ahead - and work the joystick - that did not work for me - i need it much slower - my chair would jump up - alot of bottom end power and i am not a heavy person - maybe 160 lbs or 165 lbs - my chair has a light front end -

each chair has its own effects and between the chair and the rider - its all different settings for each person - i had someone ride my chair and they couldnt how it was set - but fine in there chair -

[bgmen]

Can video

[expresso]

i may be getting the R net electronics on my next chair - any one know how i can get around to program this chair myself ? what would i need etc, -

thanks

[Burgerman]

To what level?

[expresso]

What do you Mean what level ? i am not sure just yet - i am in the works and will shoot for the 646 se - which would have the R net joystick - etc, - i may stay with the plan Led Joystick - or upgrade to the Color screen version - i am undecided

i have to see the cost difference if its worth it - and the fact that the color screen version is a large long joystick - it will be the 120amp electronics on the high speed motors they offer - now if i end up with just the plain 636 stock - thats not a problem since it uses VR2 - but i am going to shoot for the high speed - which would be 120 amp R net -

on the order form they have a option to buy the PC program with the cable and dongle - i would think thats all i would need and use it with my computer - i am not sure - price is $400 -- and they may not even get it for me even if i wanted to pay -
either way - theres a quickie-parts website which sells it also and i can purchase it if i have no choice -

http://www.quickie-wheelchairs.com/whee ... programmer

looking at the PC with the Dongle - i would like to avoid having to spend the money if theres another i can get it done - this is all if i manage to get this chair - i am in the works in finding a therapist who will be flexible with me on this - i like to be ready in case - i wont buy it - or do anything till i have the chair in my home first

[Burgerman]

There are a multitude of levels. That is end user, or dealer, or engineering, or OEM etc. Some can be embedded in the joystick and may need a key code or a dongle. Some may be hand held programmer. Some need a PC and a cable and here the dongle decides what access level you get.

Ideally you want OEM level. That's the most expensive and hardest to get hold of, and this does everything. But in every case you need to buy it. PG can supply all if you persuade them you know what you are doing, or will refuse if they think you don't.

[expresso]

the link i posted are what i can get - they are on the order form also - but if i cant get it with the chair - i can get it from the link - dosnt say what level the dongle version is - i pick that one because it is the cheapest way - you get the program - cable and dongle -

the handheld is $1000 - and may be the same as the Dongle version just a hand help once instead of the PC and Program - for me its easier to use a PC and Program - i can look at all the settings clearly - save them - etc, - unlike the hand held which i may have to scroll screen etc, - and worry about breaking it at some point -

the least expensive the better - looks like $400 is that amount - i can always call and ask them what level it is - i dont think i use so many advanced settings that it would warrant me trying to get anything more than that one - but in the event i feel i do - i can then call them direct and ask about how i can get the dongle to up the level etc, being that i already purchased it - may not be as much a issue to sell me a higher level dongle then -

it says Dealer for the dongle etc, - i just looked again -

[Burgerman]

Anyone, end user or dealer can get the dealer version or have it built in to the controller as an option.

But to most of us that want it to work and steer properly or at some point may want to use different motors, only the highest level OEM version is of any use. And unless you build chairs or they know exactly what you are doing, or you prove that you understand what its all about they wont sell you one.

[expresso]

i agree - they most likely wont sell me the highest level version - and to be honest - the cost would be way too much i am sure - i guess i would be stuck with the Dealer version - if i wanted to tackle it myself - its still very useful to me -

i am not looking to make many trips to have it adjusted - or wait for the Tech to come and do it - if the tech would have the dealer version also - waste of time to wait for them or travel to them over and over to make small adjustments in take off and turning etc,

do you have a link to the higher version - so i can maybe search around for it - ebay maybe etc, at some point -

[Burgerman]

http://www.pgdt.co.uk

Specifically 3 links here.

http://www.pgdt.com/Products/Programmers.aspx

[falco peregrinus]

The difficulty everyone talks about in reprogramming R-Net is enough alone to dissuade me from ever buying a chair with R-Net. Most chairs come with choices about which controller you get with it. It's worth asking if the chair you want is available with a different controller - not R-Net, and not Dynamic, since they both present difficulties and expenses in reprogramming them that many of the other controllers do not.
Falco

[Burgerman]

Well what manufacturer do you know of that will sell you a OEM level programmer for any modern controller?

As far as I am aware the Dynamic is the only easy to deal with company.
Having said this PG offered to sell to me without much persuasion.

[expresso]

The difficulty everyone talks about in reprogramming R-Net is enough alone to dissuade me from ever buying a chair with R-Net. Most chairs come with choices about which controller you get with it. It's worth asking if the chair you want is available with a different controller - not R-Net, and not Dynamic, since they both present difficulties and expenses in reprogramming them that many of the other controllers do not.
Falco

So is this a Real FACT that getting R net will be problematic and break down my chair etc, ? i am most concerned about the chair having problems - meaning breaking down - - if the R net - joystick the cause of the problems and get me stuck etc, which i would need repairs - i dont hear much about R net from users -

if its just hard to program - that i am not worried too much - i am ok using the computer and i am sure i can figure it out - it looks to be the same format as most - showing the profiles and go down the Roll making your changes to each profile you want and saving it to your controller -

my main concern is not having a chair that will break down due to the R net controller etc, - now - the 646 only comes with R net 120amp - thats it - no options - if i get the 636 - it comes standard with VR 2 90 amp - thats 6.5 mph - but my main thing is to get the 8.5 mph - like i have now with the 222 se - pilot plus and love it - no problems what so ever so far -

if i do the 636 and want to upgrade the motors to 8.5 - i am then forced to upgrade the controller to R net - so the bottom line is - 8.5 requires R net 120 amp - no way around that - 6.5 - i can either take the standard VR 2 90 amp or upgrade it to R net 120 amp - which i would want the 8.5 motors either way -

i am trying to figure out if getting the R net is really going to be a problem with failures etc, thats my concern - since the vendors dont really want to do quickie as it is - they recommend to avoid the 646 saying they had a lot of problems - but i dont believe it - they said that about quickie before when i wanted the 222 se which i got and its fine - so its either they just dont want to do quickie - or maybe the R net - is what they mean by problems and not the VR 2 version of the 636 - which is the same chair - just different controller - motors

if anyone has experince with the 636 and 646 - R net - would love to hear from them - or anyone on this subject - i will be needing to make a choice and have to decide which to push for - i will have to push harder for the 646 - i am betting on it that it wont fail me and prove the vendors and industry correct - and blame me if the chair ever fails -

[expresso]

Well what manufacturer do you know of that will sell you a OEM level programmer for any modern controller?

As far as I am aware the Dynamic is the only easy to deal with company.
Having said this PG offered to sell to me without much persuasion.

i really done but i got PG to sell me the cable - i had the software and i was questioned a little but nothing brutal - i just explained what i needed to do and understand how to do it etc, - was just the cable - but still - i got it fine - so i have an account sort of speak i guess - they would have me on record that i purchased from them - which may make it easier if i ever need something else - or may make no difference depending what i am asking to buy -


now - back to the R net - what do you think of this - do you know of any major issues having R net controller - etc, on the 646 ? my intentions are to push for this model to get the speed out of it - or the 636 with ungraded motors - which is the same thing - will have to get R net controller either way - unless i pick only the 636 stock - which would have the VR 2 90 amp - but slower - i want the faster speed -

i am getting concerned but also cant imagine R net being a total failure either - i wish i could have gotten the pilot plus again like on my 222 - thats fine - and i can program it also - but no option for that - which is strange to me since they are both the same motors on both chairs - 222se and 646se - both same 8.5 motors

only mines has the older 8.5 motors before they made the switch to new brand of motors etc, - - any input would be very helpful now -