PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

[Burgerman]

Whats the actual question?

[ex-Gooserider]

No direct personal experience w/ R-net. However, what I've seen here and elsewhere on the net is that R-Net is no better (or worse) than any other brand of controller in terms of reliability / function, etc...

The problems that we see with it here is the lack of access to the OEM level programming tools needed to make the thing drive a chair the way that BM and others here think that it should, instead of the way that the manufacturers want to inflict on us...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

That applies to all the modern controllers.

Pilot plus was easy because we have a method of making a cable.
And access to the OEM level software.

With dynamic and penny giles modern stuff they need dongles etc. So you must get the software from them. It is possible as long as they see your need and that they know you are capable and will be safe doing it. Same with Curtis I think.

Odd one out is anything that is Pride branded. Really Curtis, built. But pride use their own firmware etc and claim there is no actual OEM version. Which may be true, in that it sits on their "engineers" computers only. You cant get it. So avoid those chairs.

[expresso]

i cant even find anything at all on the R net - searching around - either good nor bad - - but i notice that the permobile which i hear alot say that they are very good in terms of reliable - etc, - i dont like them for myself - and not interested in them -

what i am getting at is - that they use the R net system also - so if they are reliable and the vendors like them - then why would the quickie not be reliable when they use the same controller - etc, - interesting - this is what i will tell the vendor and therapist when i go -

they dont use the chairs - and cant say how they are in real life usage - even if some come in for repairs - thats normal and cant say why - because it could be user error also -

[expresso]

Whats the actual question?

what i was trying to get at is - does anyone actually use a Chair with R net - anyone have real experince with R net controller - 646 or 636 with R net - and other chairs use R net also - not only quickie - i am trying to figure out what is it that the vendors feel that the 646 is a problem chair - they mention the electronics - but like permobile which use the same R net - maybe its the firmware software which is different on different chair makes - ?

if i can hear from real life users and what they think or anyone who knows more about R net - what are the pros and cons of the quickie with R net - other than the fact that the software is hard to get if at all -

only software i see that i can get is the Dealer level with the dongle - i can get the handheld one also - but at $1000 - that may be the higher level - i am not sure - at that price i am not going to pursue that one either way -

even the Dealer level is too much money if you ask me - but at $400 - at least i can have some control of my adjustments -

so - Does anyone have or know for sure what the story is with the R net - any good - any bad - any recalls that anyone knows of - etc, - anything that i can look into to either make me feel better about it and not worry about what the vendor or therapist say - or is there REAL truth to the bad things they are telling - i cant find anything on the web for reviews etc, -

[expresso]

i got the dealer software for the R-net - anyone can get this for free - so i am guessing the hard part is getting the dongle to use it ?

would i need just the dongle and a cable to connect to the joystick and PC - to use the dealer software ? i know its not the OEM software - but its something for now -

thanks

[LROBBINS]

You just need dongle, cable, downloaded software and PC. If it's a dealer dongle, you'll have dealer permissions. If it's an OEM dongle, you'll have OEM permissions. All the rest is the same. The Hand Held Programmer is more portable, but almost surely is only dealer level. Ciao, Lenny

[falco peregrinus]

No direct personal experience w/ R-net. However, what I've seen here and elsewhere on the net is that R-Net is no better (or worse) than any other brand of controller in terms of reliability / function, etc...

The problems that we see with it here is the lack of access to the OEM level programming tools needed to make the thing drive a chair the way that BM and others here think that it should, instead of the way that the manufacturers want to inflict on us...

ex-Gooserider

Sorry if I misled you. All I was trying to say was what ex-Gooserider said too. If you've been told a particular chair has reliability problems, then the fact that it has R-net won't be the reason.
Falco

[falco peregrinus]

i am trying to figure out what is it that the vendors feel that the 646 is a problem chair - they mention the electronics

Perhaps it is the motors, believe it or not. When my wife got her new chair, there were two choices of motor - one choice was allegedly computerised and was claimed to give better traction on loose surfaces. Benefits something like what one gets from a limited slip differential on a car were the claims for it. So we went for that option. Dearer than standard motors, of course. But since then, talking to wheelchair repair techs, it seems that those motors develop problems along the line and produce error messages at the controller - and the best solution they have found for the problem is simply to tell the controller (Curtis QLogic)that it has normal motors instead of having computerised ones. I can't say that I fully understand the setup - I haven't even gone looking to count the wires coming out of the motors, and I can't confirm the truth of what we were told - but that is what we were told. Maybe that's all that the person had in mind when they told you about problems with the electronics? If that's all it is, then it's no big deal because the solution is simple - tell the controller it has normal motors if and when the expensive motors play up.
Falco

[falco peregrinus]

i got the dealer software for the R-net - anyone can get this for free - so i am guessing the hard part is getting the dongle to use it

Dealer version is all you need to get your chair the way you want it - PROVIDING THAT you have brief access to someone with an OEM version of the software to take down the fences that limit the range within which the dealer version parameters can be set. Pride, for example, set quite ridiculous fences in their OEM settings, but once you reconfigure those OEM-only settings to full range, dealer version software is quite sufficient to get your chair the way you want it. And as far as I know, that applies to any brand or model of controller.
Falco

[Burgerman]

Not quite.

Dealer level doesn't allow a lot of things to be adjusted.

For e.g. Motor compensation. So you have to go with whatever they chose. And worse with whatever motor you have fitted now.
Or on a stock chair - LOW SPEED turn acceleration / LOW SPEED turn deceleration, *depending on manufacturer and model.

Which means it will always steer like a drunken sailor about 2 or 3 seconds after you wanted it to, or keep turning well after you wanted it to stop turning... Temperature fold-back settings, torque settings, stall torque and foldback settings, closed loop/speed settings, and 101 other things.

As far as I am concerned dealer level programming tools are pretty much useless. They are simple to understand, but the changes they can make don't help very much.

If I didn't have OEM level programming tools for my chairs they would be pretty much useless to me. Again this depends on your expectations and abilities. Stock chairs come pre-programmed in a way that anyone with little hand function, or an old granny, could use "safely" to get about by slamming the stick about like an on off switch. It makes it possible.

But for those with normal hand and finger function and normal motor and driving skills it removes most of the accuracy and capability and turns it into a liability and a huge frustration.

[expresso]

i am trying to figure out what is it that the vendors feel that the 646 is a problem chair - they mention the electronics

Perhaps it is the motors, believe it or not. When my wife got her new chair, there were two choices of motor - one choice was allegedly computerised and was claimed to give better traction on loose surfaces. Benefits something like what one gets from a limited slip differential on a car were the claims for it. So we went for that option. Dearer than standard motors, of course. But since then, talking to wheelchair repair techs, it seems that those motors develop problems along the line and produce error messages at the controller - and the best solution they have found for the problem is simply to tell the controller (Curtis QLogic)that it has normal motors instead of having computerised ones. I can't say that I fully understand the setup - I haven't even gone looking to count the wires coming out of the motors, and I can't confirm the truth of what we were told - but that is what we were told. Maybe that's all that the person had in mind when they told you about problems with the electronics? If that's all it is, then it's no big deal because the solution is simple - tell the controller it has normal motors if and when the expensive motors play up.
Falco

that sounds like GB motors your talking about -- i have a friend who has those and always getting left motor fault - for years - it just locks up and thats it - cant move it - or free wheel it either - just happened again and they will pick it up again - its invacare - turns out now they told her - theres been a recall for that joystick which is causing the problems - lets see now if that really does fix it - its going back a few years easily

i dont think that applies to the quickie - its not the same motors - only difference between my motors and stock are the speed - both the same motors

[expresso]

Ok - from what i am understanding now with this R net - is -

you need OEM software and OEM dongle to make it work at the OEM level - you cant have one or the other - wont work - it will work but will be downgraded level even if you have the OEM software with a Dealer dongle - you only get dealer level

now i got a dealer version software - just happen to get it - it was a very strange way - i think it was a mistake on there site - but either way - i got that now -

i would now need the dongle which i can only get from PG ? and its a dealer version - what they do show on there site - i can always ask them for the OEM dongle - but the chances are its the Dealer dongle i can end up getting from them - and i need the cable -

http://www.quickie-wheelchairs.com/whee ... programmer

this is what i can get with no issues - its not clear the price for the dongle - does that mean no software ? from the pictures its a little confusing - but thats what can be purchased with no problems - now if i call PG - and ask them - see what i can get from them direct -

or at the very least - try to get the same dongle just cheaper - and cable - - i dont get what the dongle does - if you have the software and the cable - what does the dongle do and why do we even need it ?

[LROBBINS]

The dongle contains a chip that is read by your PC. Among other things, that chip says "this is a real, licensed installation - not a pirated copy" and "this user has access to the ("user" or "dealer" or "EOM" or "factory" or "engineering") level set of parameters". Note too, that for some parameters, the dealer level may let you "read" the value of the parameter, but not let you change it. Also, for many controllers it is possible to download "model" settings that you can then download from PC to the chair (whatever dongle you have). Some chair manufacturers, for example, Permobil (look for these on the French Permobil site - I don't know if they're publicly available on others), actually provide several different models you can chose from - one of which I think has all the sluggish settings already removed.

Ciao,
Lenny

[expresso]

ok i understand now - its really the dongle that decides what level you get - as long as you have the same level software also - i am curious how the dongle and cable works - does the dongle go in a USB drive and the cable in the dongle on one end and the other end in the joystick cable ?

i know the joystick cable is a short cable coming out of the joystick and then the long cable from there going to the PM - the manual states not to plug anything in the charging socket other than to charge the chair - i would love to see a good picture of the dongle ends - to see how the connections are -

http://www.quickie-wheelchairs.com/whee ... programmer


from this picture here - shows a dongle - a cable and a software disk - shows the dongle price of $400 - but dosnt mention you get a cable - or software - then it shows PC software at $500 -

the cable looks like a USB on one end - cant see the dongle ends - i think the dongle has a Female USB on one end and Male USB on other end - - so the cable has to go thru the Dongle - and Dongle in the PC -

but i am not sure of this - i wonder why it seems hard to find anyone with these Quickie chairs 636 or 646 other than one person who posted here before a while back - there has to be many other users out there -

[woodygb]

Number 3
108532 PC PROGRAMMER SOFTWARE $500.00

consisting of..

Number 2 ... 108531 DONGLE R-NET PROGRAMING DEALER $400.00

plus an unspecified USB lead and a CD containing the Programming Software .... so you are paying $100 for a Disc containing software that you can download for FREE ... http://sunrise.pgdrivestechnology.com/ ...and a USB lead that you could probably pick up at any Computer shop for a few dollars.

[expresso]

i get it - the software i did download already - its the dongle and usb cable i need only - either way if i dont find any other way to get that dongle and cable - i would have no choice if i wanted to do it myself - would have to get the whole set -

the cable is a USB on one end - but the other end has the correct connector for the R -net cable coming out of the joystick - i dont think i would find one already made this way - it would have to be made - in that event - since i cant make it - or know how it would need to be made - i would have to just suck it up and get the set in that case - even though i have the software -

i have some time still to search around - i would like to search for just the cable on ebay etc, - dont know what the correct model - name etc, of the cable is - in order to get the correct connection on both ends of the Lead -

i still would love to hear from other 636 - 646 users out there - with there input and experience with these chairs

[woodygb]

Try here.

http://www.mobilityscooterpart.com/prod ... php?id=178

[expresso]

thanks - nice site - i never seem to find anything sometimes - and sometimes i find everything - i will give that place a try once i actually get the chair with R net joystick

but i like to get the facts together and learn the most i can about it -

i wonder what would happen if you use the cable and software with no dongle in the mix - ? i guess the software may look for the dongle before sending anything out -

i hope they speak english if have to call them -

this was very helpful - thanks again and Merry Xmas to everyone here - Happy New Year !!

i cross my fingers that if i do get this chair with R - net - it dosnt let me down - i need to push for this against the vendor who advises me not to due to past issues - but i love quickie chairs so i want to prove them wrong

[ex-Gooserider]

It might be worth trying to find out just WHAT the problems the dealer is claiming to have encountered - a chair is made of more parts than just the controller...

There can be differences in programming, but essentially a brand "X" controller will be the same hardware no matter what brand of chair it's installed on. But the other parts are going to be different, and may be the source of the problems the dealer claims to have encountered.

Some of the 6x6 chairs (mostly the 626) had problems with the drive wheels coming loose on the shafts - a problem that could lead to the wheel actually falling off if ignored long enough. Cause was a bad design of the wheel mounting setup. It is possible that there were other problems from either bad design or low quality parts.

ex-Gooserider

[expresso]

yes thats a good question and i dont get a specific answer or in details as to what is so bad - and what problems are happening - i heard electronics - but again not specific - not sure they even know - its one of those things - one person says something or gets a repeat repair - dosnt like the brand or chair himself - and then spreads the same story - all vendors get the same story but i dont get details - know when i meet the vendor this time - he may say more why he would advise not to get it - i will decide then when i hear more - 626 is an old chair - i dont know anything about it - i know the 636 is replacement - 646 is the same only with high speed motors - R-net etc, - i know sunrise made some changes a few years back and i am sure it was to solve what ever issues there may have been having - having a wheel fall off - not a good thing - if i can swing it and get the 646 or 636 with high speed motors - i am pretty sure i will take it -

if it works out good - i can prove them wrong - if not - i get stuck with a problem chair - i had a 220 and now the 222 se and both are great chair - just my 222 squeaks - which i gave up trying to figure it out - but other than that - its solid and fast - so i am enjoying that part - its time for me to change model now - and 646 or 636 is a sporty - hot looking chair with shocks - which the 222 dosnt have - other than my front forks - its solid like a rock - so i am looking forward to some suspension now -

i mean i cant see too much going on - if the electronics are good - motors are good - those are the main problem areas - now if wheels start coming off - thats not good - i hope if that was the case - they addressed it with the latest changes they made a few years back - to try to build up there bases and consumer base for there chairs - i shall see in the next month once i get this process going - but i would love to hear from Real users - which i cant seem to find any -

one video of a user on a 636 on Youtube - thats it -

[bgmen]

this usb card gets you going http://dx.com/p/pl2303hx-usb-to-ttl-converter-adapter-module-w-dubond-thread-blue-224704

[woodygb]

Are you sure?

[expresso]

how would i use this USB ? i mean one end would go in the Dongle if i manage to get one - the other end is are loose wires - which i have no idea how they would need to be wired etc, to connect it to the joystick cable from the R net -

this may be very simple for alot of people but i am lost when it comes to doing things like this - i would need a cable thats already made - just plug it in - thats the ideal cable for me

thanks its a good site - can always come in use one day -

[woodygb]

The only leads that I have found that work for the PGDT controllers.. Pilot+ ,VSI & VR2 ... are the USB leads used for programming Radios....
I have tried other TTL convertors like that linked to above ..but without any success.

The R-Net is a different animal and requires a DONGLE .

[expresso]

hi - i managed to get the cable for my Pilot + p222 se chair - so thats not a problem - i got if from PG - in the event i needed a new one - i am sure i can manage to get one from them again since i already did once -

i am looking forward for at R net and the 646 chair now - which as you said is different all together - the link you sent me last time looks to be the best way to go - depending on price - it will come with everything i would need - cables - dongles software etc, - handheld also i think - not sure what the whole package was -

its from oversees of course so i am hoping if i have to get it from them - that the price is worth it - with shipping if any and hopefully it works and is new one way or another i have to try to get something so i can program it myself when the time comes -

i have some time yet before i know for sure about getting the chair - i am at the very beginning process of going to the Rehab clinic with the vendor and therapist - i should know more after that which i am hoping will get done in Jan 2014 -

any info or updates on this - both programming and the chair itself would be great - i think i am the only person in my area West Coast who actually has a Quickie chair - power - i see manuals but no power quickie

[bgmen]

I did not realize I would become

[bgmen]

I did not realize I would become
this usb card gets you going http://dx.com/p/pl2303hx-usb-to-ttl-con ... lue-224704

[woodygb]

I did not realize I would become

The words are English ..but the meaning is unclear.

Here's a Google translation back to Bulgarian.
http://translate.google.com/

I did not realize

Не знаех, че

I would become

Щях да стана

Here is my opinion of the USB card ... NO ... Той няма да работи.

[bgmen]

Why will not happen is your serial port