PINNED ZXD2400 Old + New 0-60V 0-50A Power Supply & Charger

[ex-Gooserider]

Somewhat depends on if the signal is an analog voltage or a digital data-stream.... From the pictures, I'm guessing that there are some of each, but mostly digital...

If it's digital, the only thing that matters is if the signal gets through, and as long as the wire is big enough for that, increasing the size makes no difference...

If it's an analog signal then in theory you could get less of a voltage drop across the wire if the wire were thicker, but in practice, especially over the short distances and low currents involved, I doubt you'd notice a difference. Given what I'm guessing for any analog signal currents, the existing wires are already like sending garden hose water volumes through a fire hose.... (not to mention that they can compensate for any loss in the circuit design)

Basically, as Lenny said, the only real advantage to thicker wires is better mechanical strength. However from his description, the big issue with that isn't really the strength of the wires, as much as it is that soldering makes for brittleness at the solder joint, and not having any strain relief makes that a problem.

ex-Gooserider

Wire thickness:
Hard to be certain, especially since I haven't started the build yet, but from the photos, I would say that the thin wires aren't really a problem as they are basically just data / signal lines that don't have to pass any significant current.... They are actually HEAVIER than they need to be electrically in order to get enough mechanical strength... The only wiring that is ever a real concern is the stuff that carries heavy current, and that looks to be AWG 10 (or metric equivalent) which is adequate for the job...
OK .
What I mean is using thicker wires for signal will improve accuracy , or worse.

[ex-Gooserider]

I've got the unit apart, and as others have commented it looks very substantial and well built... I did see some rather ugly areas of soldering on the back of the main power board, looks like touch up or rework on top of wave soldering, but nothing that was unacceptable (I've been taking photos, will try to do a 'take-apart' document later on...)

I also got the lamp installed - definitely a real PAIN in the buttocks step, I suspect it will turn out to be the most difficult step in the mod process as the land that needs to be scraped off and soldered is UNDER the heat sink, and very tight quarters...

ex-Gooserider

[shirley_hkg]

Quite ,
but a decent iron with suitable tips helps a lot .

Loosen all those Philip screws , before its head torn ,was the hardest .I tear a few . Took hours to get rid of them .

Putting all that thin wires on the digital board , without shorts , was not easy for me too .

[Burgerman]

Brand new quality CORRECT screwdriver and it will not slip. Screw will snap first!

Let it slip ONCE and you are screwed. The screw is screwed, and the screwddriver is screwed too. So dont! (screwed! )

[shirley_hkg]

@ex_Gooserider , did you pay any custom tariff ?

[Williamclark77]

Brand new quality CORRECT screwdriver and it will not slip. Screw will snap first!

I HATE when I am fighting with rounding out Phillips screws only to find out they're JIS or posidrive. JIS screws seem to show up more often than necessary in the most random places. Posidrive are at least marked with / lines.

[Williamclark77]

Mine showed up last week. Pretty impressive. I don't see it doing 60v at 40 amps though, not for longer than a few minutes without overheating. I could be wrong. Doubt I ever need it to output that much.

I unhooked the front fan. It wouldn't work without it. The alarm light came on and wouldn't output. It was fun plugging it back in.

I 3d printed a carrying handle. I don't plan on swapping it into the pretty case any time soon. I'm still figuring it out. I did use it last night to power my Polaron charger to charge my W2 chair.

[Burgerman]

I unhooked the front fan. It wouldn't work without it. The alarm light came on and wouldn't output. It was fun plugging it back in.

I fitted an attenuator out of my draw of computer bits. Slows the fan. Also on ebay. Just a short extension with a resistor. It works with 2 fitted. Came fre with a water cooled radiator fan years back. I also remember it working ok with no front fan and just the resistor cable fitted much more quietly. Maybe it also has a resistor across the plus/minus. Cant see as its all covered up.

[Williamclark77]

The noise doesn't bother me. I don't think it's loud. I have a 9 year old girl.

I mainly tried removing it because I've never been a fan (pun intended) of push/pull fan configurations when they're sealed between each. On many setups, car radiators for example, they actually cool worse than alone because they fight against each other. This application for my use would make no difference either way. I was simply going to repurpose the fan.

[ex-Gooserider]

@ex_Gooserider , did you pay any custom tariff ?

No tariff or other charge that I know of - The girlfriend opened the door and (from what I heard) a guy came in, put the box on the floor and left...

I've gotten the SMD soldering done on the mod kit install. No problems other than the general pain of hand soldering such fine pitch SMD devices...

I have been taking pictures and making notes, I hope to end up with a document that has a take-apart of the pre-mod unit and better English captions for the various steps...

Had to take a day or two off to prep for an outdoor climbing trip - I needed to add some more padding to my harness, and go through all the gear to make sure I had it set up the way I wanted...

The trip was a mixed bag, I was stuck on mock-lead all day, which seriously sucks with the system of climbing that I use, but I got some reasonable climbs in.... However, in keeping with past history, I once again ripped a good bit of the skin off my left knee, despite taping the heck out of it and wearing my chainsaw chaps....

More fun, I managed to flip my power chair on the slope leaving the crag... Steep downhill, one wheel caught on a rock or something and spun me sideways, and over I went... No injuries, no damage to the chair, just rather embarrassing needing to have the volunteers on the trip pick the chair up and then pick me up and put me back in the chair...

ex-Gooserider

[shirley_hkg]

I 3D printed a carrying handle .

You should have count me in .

[shirley_hkg]

@ex-Gooserider , to avoid confusion with those single wires , here are the 2 very fine pairs of wires went .

[ex-Gooserider]

Thanks for the added photos... However I didn't have any trouble figuring those connections out....

However there is one where I'm a little uncertain... Where the green wire attaches to the main power board (8th photo from the start, just before they tell you to screw the board back in) it is clear that they want you to solder to the right side of the R93 location, but that photo seems to show R93 as missing, while it is present on my board... They didn't have a step removing it like they did with the resistors on the front side so I am wondering,

Do I need to remove R93, or not?

Otherwise things seem to be going together OK so far....

ex-Gooserider

[shirley_hkg]

Yes ,remove R93.

[ex-Gooserider]

OK, Thanks....

ex-Gooserider

Yes ,remove R93.

[ex-Gooserider]

I've gotten the electrical part of the mod kit done, and passed the tests... Starting to work on putting it in the fancy case...

The case is nicely machined and anodized, but a few odd things I've noticed...

1. At least in the US, standard power supply convention is to have -V on the left, Gnd (if present) in the middle, and +V on the right, i.e. -V, Gnd, +V.... The fancy case has the markings +V, -V, Gnd in that order , which seems like begging people to hook it up wrong.... Obviously it is possible to put the terminals however you like, and re-mark the front panel, but it seems a shame to mess up such a nice piece.

2. The standard setup uses the indicator light board from the unmodified supply in addition to the encoder display board. I don't see any place for the indicator board on the fancy case? Where does it go?

3. The back of the front panel has 4 small holes near the top, one goes through and has a little light bulb and 'CC' label on the front, but there doesn't appear to be any sort of indicator LED on the encoder board that lines up with it... What goes there? (I didn't see anything in the kit)

4. Not a big deal, but I didn't seem to get the parts that went with the unmodified finishing kit (particularly the back mounting panel for the AC plug and output jacks...

5. Another minor annoyance is there really isn't room on the front panel for even a pair of the small Anderson 15/30/45A PowerPole connectors, which would have been nice. I could make room by eliminating the Gnd jack, repositioning the +/-V jack and enlarging the open jack hole, but I think I will try to just put the Andersons on the back end....

6. It doesn't seem immediately obvious, but is there a preferred orientation for the supply? The boards mount vertically, and it is obvious how the side panels fasten to the heat sinks and standoffs, but it looks like the top and bottom plates can go on either way, so which side of the supply should be 'up'?

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

Reading back through the thread for advice on doing the fancy case install, and saw this hadn't been answered...

In theory it doesn't matter, since it's AC. It will work fine wired either way as long as nothing breaks. However there are some safety conventions any time one is wiring AC that increase the safety level if things go wrong.... (This is for US 110V wiring, not certain how it applies to 220V, but think it's the same given the terminal setup)

1. Fuses and switches should go on the 'HOT' side of the wiring input, so that the hot line is the one that is interrupted. That way when powered off or if the fuse blows, the device is tied to the neutral return (which in US wiring is supposed to always be at ground potential) so it is not 'live'... The corollary is that one should never interrupt the Neutral side...

2. If there is a choice, the hot line should go to the terminal that is farthest from any possible contact with the exterior chassis. Again, this reduces the chance of having the outside of the device be 'live'

In this case, XJ1 connects to the fuse, and is farthest from the chassis so the HOT wire should go to it. XJ2 does not have a fuse, and is next to the chassis wall, so it should definitely be the Neutral wire.

It wasn't asked, but the Ground wire should go to any one of the standoff pads on the main board that is marked with a ground symbol.

ex-Gooserider

On the AC side of this thing, one of the power input is marked XJ1 and the other XJ2. I'm trying to figure out which one is best to connect to the hot side of the AC inlet plug and which one to neutral.



Or since its AC does that even matter?

And BM how did you connect the ground from the AC inlet plug to the case?

I'm taking my time with fitting the fancy case but its coming along.

[Burgerman]

Those kettle plug leads come moulded at both ends. And so you cant really get it wrong. The fuse on the board is next to the hot one. I just used a multimeter to figure out which that was on the cable.

[ex-Gooserider]

True, but I think Gnomatics question was more about how to wire up the connections between the new socket going into the back of the supply and the tie-ins on the board...

A meter will tell you what each wire is connected to in the power cord, but not where each should go, and the XJ1 & 2 labels aren't all that helpful (unlike many devices that will be marked w/ line and neutral, or color code the terminals) Unless you know the standard safe practice rules for AC wiring, it isn't obvious....

The supply would still work exactly the same way with a hot-neutral swap, and not even be unsafe under normal conditions. The only time it really matters is if something goes wrong, and the fuse blows, which has a potential risk of leaving you with a 'hot' chassis (Although hopefully that would blow the mains breaker / fuse if the earth ground is wired properly)

ex-Gooserider

Those kettle plug leads come moulded at both ends. And so you cant really get it wrong. The fuse on the board is next to the hot one. I just used a multimeter to figure out which that was on the cable.

[Burgerman]

True, but I think Gnomatics question was more about how to wire up the connections between the new socket going into the back of the supply and the tie-ins on the board...

Yes that how I knew. Plug into wall, poke multimeter probes into charger end of the cable, see which is N and which is L. And then you can see which is N and L on the new socket too as it only fits one way. And obviously L on the socket goes to the board terminal with the built in fuse right next to it.

On mine the ground cable goes to both the case, and to the front ground connector. The board itself is connected to the grounded case by 8 screws and the heatsink. So you get zero ohms from the mains cable, to either case or the green ground terminal.

[ex-Gooserider]

A minor quick check on wiring sizes...

Earlier in the thread, BM mentioned using 4mm^2 wiring for the power connections from the supply to the outside world... Per my handy conversion chart, that looks like a hair smaller than AWG 11 (I don't know why the metric folks are so fond of odd AWG sizes.... )

Code: Select all

AWG     D"      Dmm    mm^2
 10     0.1019   2.59     5.26
 11     0.0907   2.30     4.17
 ---     0.0889   2.25     4.00      
 12     0.0808   2.05     3.31


Looking through what I have on hand for wiring, I have some AWG 12 silicone super flexible cable, but my only AWG 10 is stiff automotive grade, mostly used chunks pulled off old power chairs, which I'd rather not use....

Particularly considering that I probably won't be pushing the supply to the full 50A output (hard to do on 110VAC in) would it seem reasonable to use the AWG 12 I have on hand? I could always order more, but I'd just as soon not have to wait....

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

A minor quick check on wiring sizes...

Earlier in the thread, BM mentioned using 4mm^2 wiring for the power connections from the supply to the outside world... Per my handy conversion chart, that looks like a hair smaller than AWG 11 (I don't know why the metric folks are so fond of odd AWG sizes.... )

Were not! We never think about it. Its a crazy way to size stuff. AWG12 what does that mean in the english, that the english use? And the rest of the world pretty much!

Using a sensible system, normally 10x the mm2 in amps max. So thats how we buy cable! In say 2.5 sq mm cross section of copper.

SAFE Rule of thumb with PVC type cable cont Amps:

1mm is 10A
1.5mm is 15A
2mm is 20A
2.5mm is 25A
4mm is 40A
6mm is 60A
10mm 100A max. Etc.

See an obvious pattern? And in most cases its printed on the insulation.

The bigger they get the less well they cool so beyond this, derate a little.
Add 50 percent for silicone. Or 100 percent for hobby use and very hot wires.

Is it bigger than the cable in your 3kw heaters? Or whatever you fan heaters max is? The highest wattage device you can plug in? If so, esp if silicone it will be plenty!

[ex-Gooserider]

Were not! We never think about it. Its a crazy way to size stuff. AWG12 what does that mean in the english, that the english use? And the rest of the world pretty much!

AWG IS English.... That metric stuff is some crazy thing you stole from the French....

US AC standard is AWG 14 for 15A and AWG 12 for 20A on 110V circuits. Since most circuits are 15A, especially in older construction, almost every 110V device sold in the US has a maximum current draw of 1500W, and is equipped with a 15A compatible plug (20A devices require a slightly different plug, that won't go into a 15A socket, but 15A plugs will fit a 20A socket)

For the small PowerPoles, Anderson suggests AWG 12 for the 30A contacts, and AWG 10 for the 45A contacts...

Since I'm almost certain to be running only on 110V, and that means I only get 50% output power that supposedly would mean just 25A at 50V, I'm not sure if you can get higher amps at lower voltage, or if that is the maximum amps at ANY voltage...

If 25A is the max at any voltage, then it's well within the range for AWG12, but if I can get higher amps at low voltage it MIGHT be pushing it a little...

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

Another debate I've been having with myself is what I want to do about the Anderson connectors... I'd like to have an SB-50 and a PP-45 set, as I have things that run of of each....

I would like to have them on the front, so that I don't have to reach around to the back of the unit to connect, but there is no room on the front panel unless I get rid of the banana jacks, or possibly make a new panel from scratch (which wouldn't match the rest of the unit...) So I was thinking about reluctantly putting them on the back panel...

I've spent the last several hours drawing out the panel in LibreCAD so that I could locate the plug holes and machine them (I can share the drawing if folks want...)

There is plenty of room, but between the way the Andersons are designed, and the need for wiring clearance inside, the connectors pretty much have to stick out past the AC plug, which makes the unit bigger, and exposes them to damage...

However as I was doing a minimal assembly to check clearances, I realized that other than the handle, there isn't anything on the top of the box, so there is lots of room, and since the handle is already sticking up, if I drill the top cover and mount the Andersons on that, I can get them on the front and not increase the overall size... It appears that there is plenty of room to run the power wires along either the top or bottom of the case, but it might be a little tricky to get them between the Andersons at the top and the banana jacks at the bottom....

Can anyone see any reason NOT to do this?

I also found another annoyance with the front panel - the spacing on the banana jacks is to wide to allow use of the double banana plugs, which is sort of a standard for most test gear... It does make it a little easer to use the binder post function but not significantly

ex-Gooserider

[LROBBINS]

There was a logic to the AWG numbers, though a ridiculous one from an electrical standpoint. According to Wikipedia it came from the number of passes through a drawing die needed to get that diameter. The smaller the wire, the more passes needed, hence the higher number. grrr

Just like U.S. plumbing sizes - based on diameter of an ideal laminar flow pipe. So for real pipes a 1/2" item has a different size depending on what it's made of. It does mean that you get the same pressure drop across a system that uses fittings and pipes with different materials, such as an old house that has mostly cast iron pipes to which you're adding a copper or plastic run. In practice (if you're not building an industrial boiler or a petroleum cracking tower) it's just a small pita.

In Italy, we use U.S. pipe sizing, but threaded fittings have straight threads rather than tapered threads as in the U.S. I learned this the messy way when I assembled something using the 3 wraps of teflon tape adequate with tapered threads. Leaked like they weren't even connected. So here, we need 10 turns on small fittings (e.g. 1/4"), 20 turns on medium (1/2") and 30 turns on larger. What a nuisance. Some plumbers still prefer to use the old, sticky and messy system of fiber thread and paste.

[Burgerman]

We still use BSPT (tapered) on many plumbing fittings, but have non tapered version on taps, etc.

AWG IS English.... That metric stuff is some crazy thing you stole from the French....

Because its logical, simple, and plain better! It makes everything you do or buy, or design, or measure or calculate simple.

Generations back we figured that out. It makes building or machining anything, wiring stuff, volumes, weights, drilling, threads, all simple. For eg, a kilogram of water is 1000 grammes, a litre, thats 1000cc, that fits exactly a container thats 100, x 100 x 100mm. Everything lines up! Weights, lengths, volumes, threads, wires, Amps even is x10 although that was just a lucky cooincidence. Even temperatures. 0C is freezing. 100C boiling. Simple. Once you get used to it the old backward stuff you still use is just hard work, illogical, and plain messy.

[steves1977uk]

A helpful site for our American friends... https://www.mathsisfun.com/metric-imper ... harts.html

Steve

[Burgerman]

The problem with 4mm connectors and batteries is that you can short them out as well as connect in reverse, pull out by mistake, ad they dont like big currents.

So an anderson is safer all round!

The only place there was room... Dur to internal restrictions and space on the rear. Just needs a small hacksaw. dremmel, file. And 2x countersunk, allen screws, M4 x 12 or 16mm. And 4 washers. And a 4mm drill, + countersink bit.

Its not like its in the way as the AC power cable sticks out the rear further regardless... But you could fit that further inside the case flush if you wish.

Note that black and grey are identical, and will mate with each other. All the other colours do not. And theres some shown here. Theres green, white, red, pink, brown, etc too not shown.

I use grey or black for everything and I have many "thngs"/cables/adapters as you never know what you need to connect to what!

[shirley_hkg]

I think (I hope) that the month of August will arrive.

Finally meet that bull .

[martin007]

The charger is knocking on my door.

I hope don´t pay a lot at customs.