PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

[expresso]

hi - i got some good news - i may be getting a new chair - quickie 646se -- very excited over it - its not final just yet - have to wait to see if insurance will cover it -

the only thing i wasnt able to get is the Programmer for the R-net - i didnt push it since i am very happy to at least be able to get this chair - but now if i do get it - i need to program it -

is anyone able to get this program - dongle and cable for the R-net ? would anyone know where i can get them ? i dont think P&G will sell to me - and if they did it maybe a really high cost -

i did find what i think is what i will need here -

http://www.quickie-wheelchairs.com/whee ... programmer


i think getting the whole package number 3 - gives you the disk program - cable and dongle - but the price isnt cheap -

would anyone know a better deal or another way to get this ?

i dont need it right away - if it passes funding - i have a good 4 months at least before i get the chair -

thanks -

[Burgerman]

OEM level programmer isn't on there.

You will only get that via PG Drives, or a manufacturer or specialist that has a copy or can get one. I wish you luck.

http://www.pgdt.com/Products/Programmer ... ammer.aspx

DEALER versions are pretty common, and don't let you do much other than a few basic end user type settings. That one you can buy on your link. OEM version, not so easy. You either need to know someone that builds chairs, or demonstrate in depth knowledge so they have confidence in your abilities, or do a daft course that teaches you very little.

[expresso]

i think i may only need the one that i have - i dont need the OEM version - since i have the program - would i be able to get just the Cable and dongle somewhere ? without having to pay $500 for it -

[LROBBINS]

The dongle that you get will determine whether your program will have "dealer" or "OEM" permissions. The problem just becomes "How can I get an OEM-level dongle?" rather than "How can I get an OEM-level hand-held programmer?". Neither dongle will be inexpensive, unfortunately.

I have no answer to give you for R-NET, but you may have some luck finding a source if you check every distributor P&G lists throughout the world. For Dynamic, the U.S. distributor is willing to be reasonable, as is one in Taiwan, but getting an OEM-level dongle from distributors or dealers in other parts of the world or directly from Dynamic seems to be just about impossible. Maybe the same will be true for R-NET.

Ciao,
Lenny

[expresso]

i can get the basic version dongle and cable etc, - which i feel will be fine for me and the small adjustments i will be making - i am just upset that its costs so MUCH - for a dongle and cable - which they give me the program disk with it at that point - so its the whole set i need - but the price is $500

it seems as if No one has found a solution to this - i wont have to convince anyone to get this setup - i just have to pay for it on the website - for quickie parts etc, - so they do sell it freely if you want to pay - but like its been said here before -
it most likely is not the OEM Version or the higher version of the program - it may be just the basic settings - i have to wait and see if its worth it for me - or if i even get this chair - if they program it for me to my satisfaction -

most likely not - because it takes times to use and adjust - etc,- or i was thinking of bringing a copy of my P222 settings on paper and let them just put those settings on my new chair - R net - and see how that works out -

[Burgerman]

Who will you bring your paper too? There are actually hundreds of settings. What will your paper say?

Because many of the settings you will likely need, if not now but later on, are not available with the dealer version and it is unlikely that this person will have OEM access. And if they do, anything in the OEM version you want changing they will refuse or deny its existence. Even getting them to change a few simple settings to remove all the delays is all but impossible. It a case of find a way to do it yourself or suffer a chair that doesn't drive or steer properly.

Many of us have been here before...

The dealer version may allow you to change a few bits and do all you want. For the moment at least. Depends how much of a control freak you are, and if you realise how good these things can actually be.

Or even if you have the skills to take advantage of a chair that works correctly. But getting the dealer version from any supplier is simply a matter of ordering it. They are easy to get because they don't let you have access to any settings that do anything that could affect safety. (Or drivability!)

Its getting the OEM level version that's a problem. It essential to someone like me, and without it, any chair becomes worthless. I simply wouldn't want it. It would be unusable on a daily basis. Your mileage may vary...

You may get the DEALER version quite easily and cheaper from PG Drives directly. But the same dealer level access can be "built in" to the pod, and accessed by you without ANY other equipment. No hand held, no disk, no dongle. This is embedded internally and accessed by a code normally. You need to talk to your supplier. There are actually more levels than this. Some are worse than DEALER. Some are a bit higher. It all depends on your supplier and their options.

[expresso]

its just a print out of my current settings on my chair i use now P222 - not sure if it will react the same on a different chair model and with R net - etc, - its just something i may be able to get them to do at the time when i pick up the chair -

if not - i would have to call the dealer to have the tech come over and spend some time with me to try to make a few changes if needed - i understand it may be in the joystick already - like you stated - it needs a code - which i am sure they wont give me -

unlike you which i am sure you need to make all the higher deeper level adjustments - i do ok with just the minor adjustments - all i need to do is make it stop faster - turn sharper - stop turning faster or slower - power will be 100 all the time but the pick up speed to get there - i lower it down - or else it jumps wheelies all the time - so i need a smoother take off - still fast but not full speed fast - i feel fine with the minor setting changes -

i may make more changes but its usually the same settings - either a little more or less etc, - in your case - you may have better - hands and arms etc, so you have better control etc, - thats not the case with many users - its not fully the case with me - so i am not as quick to move my arms etc, -

all i am really interested in is going fast - turning smooth while i keep moving forward - and stopping - - etc, - i made a few different settings for different profiles for the reason that my home aids also move my chair - i show them how to do it - and keep one profile for other people who need to move my chair in the home etc, - i keep that for indoor profile - just makes it easier - when i use it - i put it back to my profile -

i am not yet sure i will get this chair just yet - its in the process and i am watching it - once i see its over the funding issues - my dealer will email me the order form so i can double check it - and then i can really see if i can get the dongle and cable from P&G directly - i got my last cable from them already - for my P222 -

i can try them again once i get my chair and see if they will sell it to me since i already purchased before - but i dont think the price will be any cheaper - if i tell them i dont need the software - they will ask how i got the program now - it can be downloaded from sunrise website - so i dont think its the full version - i am sure the cable price will be $100 - then i need the dongle - i wont be surprised if they dont sell it alone - and then charge a high price for the package -

so i am guessing - no one has done this before with Rnet ?

[Burgerman]

not sure if it will react the same on a different chair model and with R net - etc,

Massively different I expect, even if those same settings exist. The vast majority of important settings that your few written down ones depend on, are at a different level. It all depends on how easy you are pleased. I am not easily pleased because I know how good it can be. You may be lucky.

Its like, you are trying to design a magazine, and only have "notepad"... There's a ton of stuff you simply cannot do. No amount of fiddling about in notepad will sort out fonts, layout etc. Or build a table with only a hammer and a plank. Or bake a cake with only 2 ingredients.

You will be playing about endlessly with stuff that's possibly pretty much nothing to do with the problem. The settings you write down for e.g., DEPEND on all the hidden stuff that you don't know about to work. You may "feel" you improved something by a few percent while making something else worse. But the REAL fix may be turning something OFF, or changing a major setting by a few percent like motor compensation for eg. Or joystick tremor damping, torque, etc. And 1001 other things.



I have played with R net chairs and programming. But I know a lot of people... There are at least 3 OEM programmers within a 10 to 60 minute drive from me (in different directions!).

People that build powerchair or off road powerchairs as a business. And a big mobility dealer that does speciality stuff. And if I want to buy one I can, since PG already know me. But they also insist I buy a full R-net system at the same time since I am an OEM manufacturer...

And its too weedy, too expensive, doesn't work at higher volts etc. so I bought the Roboteq. Which both doesn't need an expensive programmer (its free!) and it has more power and is more flexible.

[expresso]

thats great - your a special case - you know much more and build your own chairs etc, - in your case - there is no other way but to have the tools needed - which include the programmers etc,

the rest of us - its a hard time getting it from the dealer - thats the one thing when i asked about it - all 3 - therapist - dealer - vendor was there and all said no - etc, - i didnt push it at that moment - i be very happy if i get the chair period with the high speed and all the extras funded -

if i have to buy the kit - cable dongle and program - then thats the price i have to pay if i want to make the minor adjustments myself at will - even at that high cost - its much cheaper if thats all i have to buy out of pocket - compared to my current chair - i had to pay the difference - insurance didnt cover it - group 4 -

i searched all over the Web. cant find nothing about cable - dongle etc, - one other place i found overseas - which is a kit also - and in that case i can get that here anyway -

i will try P&G when i see its funded and moving forward - see what i can get from them - in the meantime i will still look around and ask my Tech myself - maybe he can get me one - off the record - its worth a shot - i been trying Ebay but nothing

[expresso]

on my current chair - pilot plus - the program i have does give me access to change motor compensation - tremor etc, - but i never touched them -

i dont have a problem where i think to adjust tremor - with the motor compensation - i am not sure what it does or is - but if all works fine - i dont want to throw the motors off whack if not needed -

i think that is when you change one motor - and the other is older - etc, - it may be different and need to be adjusted - compensated for the difference in motors -

if i am correct - there may be more to it which i am sure you know better than me with all these matters - but i understand what your saying - by making other changes - it may affect the adjustments i want to make for the better -

i am not looking to change much - if it works the same as my current chair - and i can get it close to that - i be fine - but never know - the 646se is the chair i am getting if funding goes thru - how those motors and Rnet will react compared to my pilot plus - there are different motors - same speed rated but different

different chair model - i have to wait and see i guess - in the end having something to make even minor adjustments is better than nothing at all - i know these chairs come full speed and with my current chair - it was way to sensitive for me - i had to tone it down - smooth it out - keeping the power 100% -

[Burgerman]

Then all you need to do is ask about the embedded programmer. Its called OBP for On Board Programmer. Its an option, just like buying a separate one, but is "built into" the pod... And cheaper.

[LROBBINS]

i think that is when you change one motor - and the other is older - etc, - it may be different and need to be adjusted - compensated for the difference in motors -

No, that's a different parameter. Motor compensation automatically adjusts power output in response to mechanical load changes- a bump, a hill, what have you, so that you can keep a near-constant speed, especially when going slowly. It has to be matched to the resistance of the motors and wiring of each particular chair, and it is probably the most safety-critical adjustment because if set too high the chair can become COMPLETELY uncontrollable. Manufacturers, who want one number for all chairs of a given model, because they will not take the time to tune each chair to "best", will use a conservatively-low value to make sure that the chair that leaves the factory with the worst motors and wiring (there will always be some variation from chair-to-chair) will never get into a run-away or even too-snappy condition. On my daughter's chair, it actually arrived from the factory with compensation values of 50 when the motors needed 300, and the chair was simply unusable until this was fixed. For example, it would drift a couple of meters before stopping when the joystick was brought to neutral (or for Rachi, when when she took pressure off her "go" head switch), same, for example, for stopping a turn. That manufacturer was just plain incompetent in too many ways to tell you about here, and I wouldn't expect to see a value that far off on a Quickie product, but I would also expect that fine tuning motor compensation can make most chairs more pleasant to drive.

Ciao,
Lenny

[falco peregrinus]

Thanks Lenny. That's a great explanation! I never quite figured out what motor compensation was; I just knew it had to be set to pretty close to the correct value (as determined by the measuring method outlined in the manuals) or else one had problems. Thank you.
Falco

[expresso]

i am always a bit worried about changing things i am not 100% sure of - that sounds like one of them for me i cant complain much with Quickie chairs - they come pretty much ok for me to use - but a few little adjustments to the basic settings works fine with my current chair -

i am not looking to blow up the motors or risk something going wrong - but if someone understands it fully and knows where to safely adjust those values to - and it helps in the overall handling of the chair - then its ok and do it - i though it was when they changed out motors and they had to compensate for the difference in motors - one newer than another - usually they can be off when they happens but most times the system adjusts itself so it ride straight even - and not pull to one side or another due to the motors being off somewhat - at that point - i think motor compensation would adjust that so it wont happen -

i really done know for sure since i never touched anything i didnt know in the program - i think i did once and the chair didnt behave correctly - not sure what i touched but i didnt like it and put it back - in my case i feel all i need is the turning smooth while going fast forward - to get around the people smoothly - stopping fast - not wanting the chair to keep going when i stop moving the joystick - etc, - and left to right at a decent speed - again stopping when i stop - but sometimes i need a little slack -

always good to learn what other settings do for others - to get an idea

[Burgerman]

Robotics, or hobby type controllers have no compensation setting at all. With those you simply get out what you expect. Half stick gives a 50 percent pulsewidth, and 50 percent power or speed.

Take a typical powerchair motor. It draws a hypothetical 100Amps say, from a 100Amp controller, if stalled against a wall at 24v. That's at FULL THROTTLE (or a 100 percent Pulse Width). Since that's all a controller does, chop up the 24v into slices. Its a square wave that is on for 0 to 100 percent of the time connected directly to the 24v battery... So HAALF STICK is 50%on + 50%off at very high constant frequency so you don't hear it.

But consider what happens at say HALF STICK. That's only 50% pulse width. So now the motor sees half the average voltage, makes half the torque. So chair reluctant to accelerate or climb a threshold, or turn.

Then realise that many controllers have the max turn rate programmed to say 30 or 40 percent. And that's at FULL STICK and set to HIGH speed. So now you only get 40 percent (40% pulse width) at full right stick. This may or may not be adequate to make the chair turn on the spot. But what happens when set to a lower speed, OR use less stick. Where required turn rate may be say 10 percent. You give the chair FULL LEFT STICK set to slow, and get a pulse width of just 10%. and the chair doesn't turn or even move through lack of torque.

So unless you have VERY low impedance motors, that draw huge Amps at low voltages (low pulse widths) you need some help!
That's motor compensation.

Basically it is a helping hand behind the scenes that gives you a big shove in times of need. It adds extra pulse width, or more volts if you prefer, so more amps drawn and more torque when it sees you need it based on current. And its fast, so it doesent climb a threshold and then run away with you. It stops helping instantly as the current falls away (as you move or speed increases). At least if its not set too high... Its a way of making weedy motors behave like bigger ones.

But for the Roboteq Lenny wrote us all the code that does this in a script that the controller runs in a loop.

[Burgerman]

always good to learn what other settings do for others - to get an idea

Its always good to know how EVERYTHING works! Especially if your mobility or pocket are affected. Even if you never do any of this stuff, it is always better to understand the world, and the things and equipment you depend on.

As usual knowledge IS power.

[expresso]

i am the curious type also - but i also dont want to play with what i dont know - like you said - i should know just to know - which is good for everyone - what ill effect can this do if someone would to change the motorcompensation values -

i am not sure what mines are set at - mostly like - Auto - or a default setting - if i would change that figure - what would going higher do or going lower do - to my chair in general use etc, - and would this have any ill effect to the motors -

like more wear and tear - shorter life etc, - i dont have those issues of stalling or going up curbs etc, that get me stuck - giving its not a huge curb - but for the normal stuff i run into in the city streets - i can go just about anyway with my chair - now i know if i go off road etc, or on grass - i have to keep those motors going more - but i am in the city - mostly street - sidewalks etc, -

i am sure if i were in the country - more off road use - then i think i would readjust my settings because i may need more low end power at lower speeds etc, -

i have to do some more reading on that adjustment and everything in the manual - i find its good to re read it sometimes - get a better understanding - i havent touched my settings since last year if not more - but i may visit them again and see what little changes i can do - and see if it helps

now there is one thing i feel is going on with my chair and hard to explain - could be do to my hands - the location of the joystick etc, - it seems to me - that when i move forward and go around things on the right side - seems smooth but when i go around things on the left side - seems like its slower compared to the right -

i was thinking about this a while - this is one thing i like to try to adjust in the settings if there is anything which i can do about it - to make the left turn as smooth as the right side while moving forward fast - not making a left or right turn completely -

this could be my hands holding the joystick a certain way - i was thinking i can adjust some setting higher for one side compared to the other and see if that evens it out - i am not sure if i am explaining this correctly -

[Burgerman]

There are hundreds of settings that do a specific thing. Such as steer correct, joystick throw, etc. But these are all interrelated. They do a single exact thing, but that affects how it feels and drives as a whole. The only way to get it as good as it can ever be for you, is for you to learn what every setting does, and feel the affect it has. It took me a year or so fine tuning less and less before I was happy. And even now I make small adjustments.

As for picking on a single setting like motor compensation, then it affects how the chair feels as a whole.
If you reduce it to zero (off) and try driving your chair around for an hour it will be VERY clear what affect it was having! You may be able to compensate for some of this by changing other things, but never completely.

It would not move at small stick movements. It may not want to turn, until you give it a big stick movement. Then it will spin around fast and surprise you. But only at full stick on full speed setting. Again the only way is to test so that YOU can feel the affect. You cannot describe it easily.

Increasing it in tiny careful steps beyond where it is now may make it better or worse. It all depends... On you, your control abilities, the chairs other settings, your expectations, and how far out (safe) it was to begin with. Its a case of bum on seat and test! If you go too far the chair will be too responsive, and jerky. I LIKE mine this way. And its instant. Its called fine tuning. Only the USER can decide. You may not like it this touchy. It can be softened up by adding turn accelerations and decelerations. Leaving only the better torque at low pulsewidths. For eg.

For all of these reasons everyone should have an OEM programmer, and use it for weeks to get the chair at least as good as it can be for them. But first thy need to learn how a controller and motors work. Or many of the adjustments will make no sense.

[expresso]

your right to find out what it does - if it can be Postive or Neg.. you have to just make a change - i have to look it over again and see what i can do but i was out today and take a nice little ride - either i just got used to how i left it over a year ago - it seemed fine

if i can - i would get the OEM program - dongle etc, - but i dont think i be able to get that level - i am not going to go crazy over it - i can get the Dealer - therapist level - what options that would give me on the Rnet - or what would be missing that can be useful - i wont know either way

if i get the chair first - then i worry about it - but for sure i will get something - and see for myself how it works out - maybe the tech, i deal with - if he can help me out that way - off the record - i see

i like the PC way better since i am better with PC's larger screen - can look things over and see everything - there is a handheld which costs almost 3 times the price of the PC , dongle and cable -

i can have the tech . come make some changes and see what he uses - he may use the code on the joystick to enter and make changes - if thats the case - i may be able to get the code and do it myself - but again its like having a handheld - which is good - but i feel better on a big screen and look things over carefully - so if i make a mistake - i can just reload the original settings and start again - with the joystick - i have to make sure i know how to navigate it -and not make a mistake - which i am sure i will make a few -

unlike you - i cant use the chair if its too sensitive - - if all goes well - i wont have this chair till - Sept. i think - so no rush - i dont want to make any phone calls yet asking about the program untill i am ready to purchase it - just in case they let me -

[expresso]

I took a chance and purchased a dongle on Ebay - for the R net - at the very least - i can use the dongle with no cable or software and use the joystick to make the basic adjustments - my goal is to get it to work with the PC software and USB cable i am hoping i can use a reg. computer printer cable -

but i wont know anything till i actually get the chair - so this was just a gamble on my part that it will work out - since i see the prices are so high and very very hard to come by in the first place - fingers crossed - thanks to everyone for there input and hopefully i made a good decision -

[CottonSwabby]

will this work with this? mk6i spj+ w/pss... or am I missing something?

[woodygb]

Invacare ...as far as I'm aware ...manufacturers it's own controls ..so the Penny & Giles / PGDT interface will be unsuitable.

[LROBBINS]

Twas not always so, but most or all Invacare controllers now come from their subsidiary - Dynamic. I do not know, however, whether the standard Dynamic Wizard, cable and dongles work with the Invacare variants. Perhaps Shirley or JoeC know.
Ciao,
Lenny

[bgmen]

If anyone has pgdt MOBILITY PC PROGRAMMER oem version can post ?

[Burgerman]

You already have it and are using it...

[WDMSetc]

Hi,

Forgive the noobiness...

I've rescued a powerchair with the intent of sorting out how to interface it to a "smart house".
[Nearest I can tell, it is a Jazzy Select Elite -- though I base that solely on similar images from
a web search... I can't find any markings that clearly identify it as such]

I originally thought to tackle this by interfacing to the controller via the joystick (and other
controls on the user I/F).

Reading this thread, however, I see that won't work well -- except by chance . My
control algorithms will interact with "whatever" is running in the controller leading to
instability (unless I terribly overdamp my controls).

The other -- more disheartening -- aspect is that any interface I create would have to be
tailored to each manufacturer's chairs (??)

[A "joystick interface" could be reasonably portable between models/manufacturers]

So, I'm looking for suggestions as to how I can proceed towards a more "common"
solution (so I don't have to keep reinventing the wheel). Am I better off trying to
bypass the controller and just deal with different motors (from each manufacturer)?
Where to start?

[I'm an EE and design this sort of hardware and software professionally]

[Burgerman]

(unless I terribly overdamp my controls).

That wont work either. Many stock powerchairs have many control inputs delayed. Sadly that also means when the command to STOP TURN is given, they continue to turn for between .2 and about 3 full seconds depending on individual chairs programming of "turn deceleration".

So you may well need to reprogram each controller to give a sensible linear response. Or replace the controller entirely. And as you say deal with each set of motors individually.

[WDMSetc]

Can all controllers be "dumbed down" -- effectively made to behave as simple proportional controllers (additionally providing whatever thermal/SOA protections they require for themselves)?

Or, do I need to design a replacement controller -- which means I must then "pick favorites" (chairs)?

[Of course, this also means requiring people to spend more serious money!]

[woodygb]

The communication protocol used by the various manufacturers is proprietary and may even vary between their various controller types.

IMO you will never be able to produce a simple plug in universal interface .

Here's the result of an investigation into the Pilot+ com signals.

http://dzlsevilgeniuslair.blogspot.dk/

I should also point out that the control system is NOT wheelchair make / model specific .

[woodygb]

Your Jazzy probably has a GC remote joystick ...and a Penny & Giles VR2 Controller.