PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

[steves1977uk]

REVOLECTRIX GT500 for £75 sounds good.

REVOLECTRIX guy said it can do 8S and lifepo4

NO, just NO! See here... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9842

Steve

[Burgerman]

I really don't care it can tell me...as long as it does it's job..
Think I will go back to normal batteries. A lot less bother and cheaper

1st sentence is not english and I dont know what it means.
2nd sentence also makes little sense! All batteries are normal... You mean lead presumably. 2x heavier, 5x less range, 7x less servive life, and half the cost. So actually FAR MORE expensive! I cant afford lead.

And those PL8s are pretty robust. The fact that you killed 2 tells me that something common to both killed them. And thats a power supply. Esp if they ad the same error. And in light of testing by revolectrics, as it repeatable.

[terry2]

It can.

Its got no PC software, no good templates so you will have to configure it all yourself, which I think is not actually possible and you have to use their profiles. How you going to set up the correct balance type, parameters, balance start point, and termination value? And time limits, and the balance high/low cell limit since its too low by default?

Yes it can sort of work. You wil get errors if its out of balance. And god knows at what current it will decide to terminate.

And...

I spoke with Howard at FMA on Tuesday and he told me what the issue was. I guess the voltage spikes were causing the problem.
I am switching to a different powersupply. Not worth the risk for me.
Thanks for the info.

Says that your power supply will do the same to that new charger too. What IS your power supply?

You posted about the FMA alread lol...

The FMA must send 1,000000000s of power supplys back if they miss a beat
And does this FMA exspect everyone to have tester for powersupplys?

As long as the GT500 charges the cells...I don't care... it's £75 and I can buy it NOW
Anyway I have no choice as I can't find another.

[terry2]

I really don't care it can tell me...as long as it does it's job..
Think I will go back to normal batteries. A lot less bother and cheaper

1st sentence is not english and I dont know what it means.
2nd sentence also makes little sense! All batteries are normal... You mean lead presumably. 2x heavier, 5x less range, 7x less servive life, and half the cost. So actually FAR MORE expensive! I cant afford lead.

And those PL8s are pretty robust. The fact that you killed 2 tells me that something common killed them. And thats a power supply.

200 times heavyer...loads less power...BUT...I can buy a charger for them any day of the week.
Unlike PL8s

So. I should learn how to use a oscillator(buy one), test each power supply I buy for a few days...if the misses a beat ..send them back?

If they stop making PL8s, which by the sound of it they have....how are you going to charge your cells when your 4 PL8s have gone?
Would be nice to know.

[steves1977uk]

If they stop making these PL8s...what are you going to do?

Stock up on them when they come back in stock. I believe Irving was working on a PL8 type charger, but no idea at what stage he is currently at.

Steve

[terry2]

If they stop making these PL8s...what are you going to do?

Stock up on them when they come back in stock. I believe Irving was working on a PL8 type charger, but no idea at what stage he is currently at.

Steve

As I have said steve.
You can't even buy them to stock up

[steves1977uk]

Ummm.... What does it say here???... http://www.usastore.revolectrix.com/Pro ... -version_2

(COVID-19 DELAYS AT FACTORY. IN STOCK DATE COMING SOON)

So blame the Chinese for eating bats! But the PL8 will be back in stock.

Steve

[terry2]

Ummm.... What does it say here???... http://www.usastore.revolectrix.com/Pro ... -version_2

(COVID-19 DELAYS AT FACTORY. IN STOCK DATE COMING SOON)

Steve

It said something else before that
They sold all there refurd ones months ago..

I emailed them asking when they will have stock. The person said they have no idea.

[terry2]

In Jan of this year they said

"OUT OF STOCK- DUE LATE JANUARY Cellpro PowerLab 8 v2 with EC5 input cable, 1344W, Multichemistry Battery Workstation"

Just use wayback machine for sites.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200128173 ... -version_2

[Burgerman]

Before the virus.

[Burgerman]

You posted about the FMA alread lol...

The FMA must send 1,000000000s of power supplys back if they miss a beat
And does this FMA exspect everyone to have tester for powersupplys?

As long as the GT500 charges the cells...I don't care... it's £75 and I can buy it NOW
Anyway I have no choice as I can't find another.

Can you decipher this???
It makes zero sense to me and I dont know what you are ranting about.

If a power supply sends an over voltage spike to a charger it dies. If you dont understand that I am bewildered.
And if it kills PL8s then it will do the same to the GT500. But thats got additional issues as you will see later!

[terry2]

Before the virus.

That was before....but I will go back even more!

[terry2]

You posted about the FMA alread lol...

The FMA must send 1,000000000s of power supplys back if they miss a beat
And does this FMA exspect everyone to have tester for powersupplys?

As long as the GT500 charges the cells...I don't care... it's £75 and I can buy it NOW
Anyway I have no choice as I can't find another.

Can you decipher this???

I can

Dec 2019 "OUT OF STOCK- DUE LATE JANUARY Cellpro PowerLab 8 v2 with EC5 input cable, 1344W, Multichemistry Battery Workstation"

it's been out of stock for 10 months.

Again BM

IF your PL8s die...what will you use if it happend today?

[Burgerman]

One of the 4 spare ones I already bought while stocks were good. But non have died in a decade almost of abuse. Powered by chairs while flying, various quality power supplies, and shirleys power supplies. IF I ever get down to 2, I will buy a bunch of others to test. And return those that are no good.

Yes hobby stuff is frequently out of stock, esp over winter. I.e early in the year. Its made in large batches for the summer sales time. Little flying hapens in winter. So they dont spend the money. Dead stock costs $$$. And then comes the virus making it worse. I dont understand what you are getting at?

You still have not answered the question I keep on asking. And its important. What is the power supply?
Early server derived revolectrix ones had problems. And many server ones do. So do those red or black alloy hobby ones... At least they did untill a firmware fix.

[7Gluk]

And I cant find any info on the other charger. So I doubt it is wise to swap them. The devil is in the details.

1. EXCEL X-POWER 5, remote - Dynamic A-Series DA50-A41, charger - 4F24050 24VDC/5A, two VRLA batteries (serial connected, 24V in total) - TEV12360 12V/36A, is dead.





2. FS101A-46 (2014y), remote - newVSI, charger - HP8204L2 24VDC/5A, Li-po battery - 25.2V (29.4V charging).





1st wheelchair has two 12V/36A lead batteries in serial connections.
2nd wheelchair has one 25.2V/21A Li-po batteries.
Both chargers connecting to the remote (XLR-connector).

[terry2]

One of the 4 spare ones I already bought while stocks were good. But non have died in a decade almost of abuse. Powered by chairs while flying, various quality power supplies, and shirleys power supplies. IF I ever get down to 2, I will buy a bunch of others to test. And return those that are no good.

Yes hobby stuff is frequently out of stock, esp over winter. I.e early in the year. Its made in large batches for the summer sales time. Little flying hapens in winter. So they dont spend the money. Dead stock costs $$$. And then comes the virus making it worse. I dont understand what you are getting at?

You still have not answered the question I keep on asking. And its important. What is the power supply?
Early server derived revolectrix ones had problems. And many server ones do. So do those red or black alloy hobby ones... At least they did untill a firmware fix.

It's an Efuel 1200 watt 50A

Now answer me. If they all the PL8s died today. What would you buy?
I have asked you this many times over the years....but you never answer

[Burgerman]

In which case you should simply use the charger that says Lithium Ion (thats not lipo by the way! Lithium Ion as in laptop/phone battery is very different to the Lithium Polymer hobby type chemistry) with the lithium battery.

And the lead charger with the lead battery.

The cell balancer and the BMS are contained in the battery itself inside the litium ion pack. And that will likely be the first source of the battery issues. Although a lithium ion pack from 2014 will not be very healthy anyway It may still work to a degree. But beware of those cells if you cannot get off and run away. They make a box of fireworks look very tame, and I mean very.

The lead batteries and charger are both rubbish... Dont use the lead charger on those lithium ion cells either as its not 1A to 2A but 5A and will kill the BMS probably... And its the wrong voltages and termination point. And it may switch off and give an error while the BMS is trying to balance things...

[Burgerman]

It's an Efuel 1200 watt 50A

And those were the problematic ones discussed in a bunch of threads a few years back. So if I were you I would ebay it, and buy something else. Because its highly likely that this is the problem. Even a brand new one the same. As they addressed the problem in firmware I believe.

Now answer me. If they all the PL8s died today. What would you buy?
I have asked you this many times over the years....but you never answer

I answered many times.

I will quote the most recent a few posts above this one that you obviously didnt understand.

What would I use?

One of the 4 spare ones I already bought while stocks were good. But non have died in a decade almost of abuse. Not much chance of me killing 4 at a time is there? I think ahead and bought enough in case they stop making them. To give me time to find, make or adapt something else.

Mine were powered by chairs while flying, various quality power supplies, and shirleys power supplies. IF I ever get down to 2, I will buy a bunch of others to test. And return those that are no good.

Yes hobby stuff is frequently out of stock, esp over winter. I.e early in the year. Its made in large batches for the summer sales time. Little flying hapens in winter. So they dont spend the money. Dead stock costs $$$. And then comes the virus making it worse. I dont understand what you are getting at?

[Burgerman]

Also take a read!

Those power supplies killed many ichargers (different thread) and many PL8 and PL6 chargers too. Heres the warning by the guy that owns Revolectrix.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.ph ... stcount=19

[7Gluk]

In which case you should simply use the charger that says Lithium Ion

Can the charger (Li-ion) from the 2nd wc damage the remote on 1st wc?

thats not lipo by the way! Lithium Ion as in laptop/phone batteries is very different to the Lithium Polymer hobby type chemistry

The manual for the wheelchair says that the battery is lithium-polymer (cell model: AE8867220P)

[terry2]

It's an Efuel 1200 watt 50A

And those were the problematic ones discussed in a bunch of threads a few years back. So if I were you I would ebay it, and buy something else. Because its highly likely that this is the problem. Even a brand new one the same. As they addressed the problem in firmware I believe.

Now answer me. If they all the PL8s died today. What would you buy?
I have asked you this many times over the years....but you never answer

I answered many times.

I will quote the most recent a few posts above this one that you obviously didnt understand.

What would I use?

One of the 4 spare ones I already bought while stocks were good. But non have died in a decade almost of abuse. Not much chance of me killing 4 at a time is there? I think ahead and bought enough in case they stop making them. To give me time to find, make or adapt something else.

Mine were powered by chairs while flying, various quality power supplies, and shirleys power supplies. IF I ever get down to 2, I will buy a bunch of others to test. And return those that are no good.

Yes hobby stuff is frequently out of stock, esp over winter. I.e early in the year. Its made in large batches for the summer sales time. Little flying hapens in winter. So they dont spend the money. Dead stock costs $$$. And then comes the virus making it worse. I dont understand what you are getting at?

What power supply do you think is best for the PL8 V2?

[Burgerman]

Yes they all think that they are lithium polymer. They are not. Its the chinglish translation problem.

Those cells are whats known as Lithium ion or lithium cobalt ion. The same as used in a tesla or or in the typical 18650 cells (that are inside that pack) that we use for everything from laptops to vaping... Inc phones, my RC transmitter etc. Open up any of those devices and you will see these https://www.18650batterystore.com/18650 ... -s/106.htm

In the case of the 24V equivelent, they are nominally 3.7V each and use 7 series cells. So 7x 3.7 = 25.9V. CHARGE voltage is 4.20V per cell or 29.4V charge And around 3.0V empty voltage. X7 obviousy so 21V is dead...

And the wheelchairs control system is not involved in the charging at all. So charging with a different charger that suits the battery will not bother it one bit!

[steves1977uk]

What power supply do you think is best for the PL8 V2?

The best PSU is this one... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7670

Steve

[Burgerman]

What power supply do you think is best for the PL8 V2?

Well I can only say what I use and have MEASURED and tested. Thats two bench supplies http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... arging.jpg
And 2x shirley supplies. download/file.php?id=8336&mode=view

I also use my Van at 12V to charge my chair as I drive, and my powerchairs at 24V when at the flying feild to charge many LiPo cells...

And I also have a couple of those 600 watt industrial eBay supplied that I dont trust. As such they have a DIODE in series so no AC noise or spikes can get out of the charger, and a Capacitor for smoothing, and a zenner diode ACROSS the supply so no spikes can get out to the charger. 3 simple components that protect the charger.

[terry2]

What power supply do you think is best for the PL8 V2?

The best PSU is this one... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7670

Steve

What power supply do you think is best for the PL8 V2?

Well I can only say what I use and have MEASURED and tested. Thats two bench supplies http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... arging.jpg
And 2x shirley supplies. download/file.php?id=8336&mode=view

I also use my Van at 12V to charge my chair as I drive, and my powerchairs at 24V when at the flying feild to charge many LiPo cells...

And I also have a couple of those 600 watt industrial eBay supplied that I dont trust. As such they have a DIODE in series so no AC noise or spikes can get out of the charger, and a Capacitor for smoothing, and a zenner diode ACROSS the supply so no spikes can get out to the charger. 3 simple components that protect the charger.

Should of said. What I can buy now with warranty
Thanks

[Burgerman]

>>What can you buy now with warranty?

Do you mean what can you buy with a warranty or what can you buy with the money refunded from a failed charger?

Are you asking what charger or what power supply to buy?

Send your PL8 in for repair.
Look around for a better power supply and ebay yours. Such as one of shirleys.

I paid under 200 for each of my 2 bench supplies.
Cant remember exactly how much shirley ones were, but they are a bargain for what they can do.But the cost of those has risen due to the coronavirus and some otther industrial reason that shirley mentioned.

[terry2]

>>What can you buy now with warranty?

Do you mean what can you buy with a warranty or what can you buy with the money refunded from a failed charger?

Are you asking what charger or what power supply to buy?

Send your PL8 in for repair.
Look around for a better power supply and ebay yours. Such as one of shirleys.

I paid under 200 for each of my 2 bench supplies.
Cant remember exactly how much shirley ones were, but they are a bargain for what they can do.But the cost of those has risen due to the coronavirus and some otther industrial reason that shirley mentioned.

I already said I want a power supply!

And yes again with warranty. I have very little money.

So there is only 2 power supply's in the whole world that ok to use with the PL8
I'm going to read the RC forums and see what they say.
BUT. I know that they will say "no power supply is 100% guaranteed to work as should."

[7Gluk]

And the wheelchairs control system is not involved in the charging at all. So charging with a different charger that suits the battery will not bother it one bit!

Thanks!

[Burgerman]

This shows a shirley supply being measured for voltage stability. It can accurately read peaks or spikes as short as 250 μs
Thats 250 micro seconds. Or 250 millionths of one second!
It can read noise or spikes on a voltage less accurately at even much less time than this!
250 Microsecond = only 0.00025 Second!

So a reading like this on a this fluke 289 meter shows the high, and the low spikes on a power supply.
Here its just 0.001V of noise on shirleys supply. And its got no start up spike either. Well my 2 dont!

Zoom in... download/file.php?id=8312&mode=view

[terry2]

@BM what is the model number of your mastech