Revolectrics

[Burgerman]

https://www.nexusmodels.co.uk/icharger-4010-duo-2000w-balance-charger-junsi-icharger.html

2. After charging, the battery may not be completely charged; tick Keep charging after the done
to charge the battery with smaller current when charging ends.

So it stops too soon. And theres no way to set a proper manual termination current. And then if you tick a box, instead it never stops so you would need to watch the termintion current, and stop it manually so it doesent hold you already charged batteries high all night long... Since thats a good way to shorten their life.

Will it work? Sort of... Better than BMS as long as you do all the work... And know what you are doing.

It also gives a warning about non hobby use (too many warranty claims as it tries to charge a big pack!

Please Note: We are getting many none modelling customers buying this charger for many uses not modelling related.
We can offer no support for any use not model related and incorrect use may effect warranty

And many warnings about connecting all the connectors in the right order. Because that too makes the smoke come out. So instead of fixing the issues, like the PL8 manufacturer did, they warn the user and blame them. So ichargers are a long way behind the old PL8. Again, it will work. Almost any charger will. Just a matter of how good. Or not.

[Fred005]

So, in the all world (maybe more ... Lol.) only the discontinued PL8 (with the fine settups) can do a good job for charging a LiFePo4 cell ?
It'll be interesting to know how many PL8 were built vs LiFePo4.
I can imagine a lot more LiFePo4; so a huge majority of these poor LiFePo4 have never been charged correctly ...

What can I risk using a (nasty) BMS ?
My LiFePo4's life will be shorted of how many ? 10% ? 20 % ? Not more if I refere to some of my friends using LiFePo4 and (nasty) BMS since around 10 years.
Ok for 20%.
So my next LiFePo4 pack will dieded after 8 years ... for sure far after me ...

So, IN MY CASE, it's time to enjoy and not wasting time; a (nasty) BMS will give me an enough good job.



I've been using a "very bad" 2 batteries LiFePo4 solution since 4 months. 110ah each.
You know, these LiFePo4 pack used to replace lead battery in a car/truck for exemple. With, for sure, a BMS. All, sealed up in a plastic case without ventilation.
In huge difficult conditions: Hot temperature, very difficult area, I mean long and huge climbs, and so.
Ok, I know, 4 months/1000km + is nothing.
However, my bad 110ah LiFePo4 batteries, gave me 100% satisfaction, never failed down: more than 10h endurance for around 40km and D+ 2000m. 40km/10h, you can imagine how is the field where I hike; not flat.

So, and that's my own opinion, even if there is always better solutions, factories ones are not so bad.

Ok, you'll say me: Fred, and your X8 OEM version was so bad that you made huge modifications ...
You're right, and I'm representing what ? 1/1000 of X8 users. Maybe 1/5000.

I've read plenty of pages about BMS, and even if my english and knowledge are not very accurate, my opinion is, for 98% of users, BMS do a good job.

But ok, a Formula 1 will do a better huge good job than my Grand Voyager ... Depending on wich purpose, and for sure not for carrying together my racing wheelchair, handbike, X8 and daily wheelchair.

All is a matter of compromise and user needs/wishes.


Have a good day, and enjoy !

Fred.

[snaker]

You have to learn whats 'good' and 'bad'. E.g you do not know how good/bad is your friend's pack (so you guess 20%). We do know it and we do not need to guess because we are able to MEASURE and SEE it. That's only a simple advantage that PL8 gives us (it has many more).

[Fred005]

Don't give me a PL8 solution, PL8 is over.

[davidpaul]

Don't give me a PL8 solution, PL8 is over.

My thoughts too (not wishing to offend)

[snaker]

That's why people here are looking for a charger that is as close as a PL8 as possible. And BM explained why any 'true' lithium charger is better than all BMS.

[Burgerman]

So, in the all world (maybe more ... Lol.) only the discontinued PL8 (with the fine settups) can do a good job for charging a LiFePo4 cell ?
It'll be interesting to know how many PL8 were built vs LiFePo4.
I can imagine a lot more LiFePo4; so a huge majority of these poor LiFePo4 have never been charged correctly ...

That is pretty much correct. And the same applies to lead. Esp gel batteries as used in powerchairs. A great deal of service life and range as they deteriorate, and reliability in the case of BMS issues ranging from fires to damaged cells on top of the service life loss, and reliability issues. So thats very true.

What can I risk using a (nasty) BMS ?

Biggest issue is incorrect balancing, incorrect termination currents, potential fires from mosfets failing shorted, as has been seen over and over on EV car and bike forums. Quite apart from the potential reliability issues that this causes when the problems surface. And shorter service life is only a small part of the potential problems we see. And thats why I just replaced my portable drill and mower lifepo4 packs this year...

My LiFePo4's life will be shorted of how many ? 10% ? 20 % ? Not more if I refere to some of my friends using LiFePo4 and (nasty) BMS since around 10 years.

Some of my packs here are already older than that and when measured for self discharge and internal resistance degradation and measured capacity with the PL8 then theres literally no significand deterioration. The problem with a BMS is that depending on the actual BMS and its settings, depending on actual charger used, you cannot know. And you might get a year as per my mowers failed pack, or 3 years as per my drill packs which have not failed but have reduced capacity. By around 50% measured...

Ok for 20%.
So my next LiFePo4 pack will dieded after 8 years ... for sure far after me ...

Maybe. Or it might suddenly fail or a cell might not gradually, but suddenly tomorrow and no way to monitor or measure or know. And typically that is exactly what happens. Reliability.

I've been using a "very bad" 2 batteries LiFePo4 solution since 4 months. 110ah each.
You know, these LiFePo4 pack used to replace lead battery in a car/truck for exemple. With, for sure, a BMS. All, sealed up in a plastic case without ventilation.
In huge difficult conditions: Hot temperature, very difficult area, I mean long and huge climbs, and so.
Ok, I know, 4 months/1000km + is nothing.

But those are not typical because the biggest killer of LiFe cells are discharge loads. And your batteries are BIGGER Physically than will fit into a powerchair. And are no bigger in Ah than the equivelent sized lead battery at around 100Ah. So you spent a lot. And gained around 40% in range only because you can use all the 100Ah where lead does not alow that. Had you fitted say 8 cells and done it properly you could have had 5x that range, and 240Ah. So its a very expensive less reliable way to only gain 40% range. So as far as range, reliability, cell longevity, charge rates, and KNOWING what is actually happening you are much worse off. Those 100Ah batteries cost more that a 240Ah setup!
However, my bad 110ah LiFePo4 batteries, gave me 100% satisfaction, never failed down: more than 10h endurance for around 40km and D+ 2000m. 40km/10h, you can imagine how is the field where I hike; not flat.

Ok, you'll say me: Fred, and your X8 OEM version was so bad that you made huge modifications ...
You're right, and I'm representing what ? 1/1000 of X8 users. Maybe 1/5000.

I've read plenty of pages about BMS, and even if my english and knowledge are not very accurate, my opinion is, for 98% of users, BMS do a good job.

That only shows that you do not understand the issues. Yes they work, last resort. I would use tham if no alternative, but I would not use ay of the "safety features" for a huge bunch of reasons. And would connect direct to the battery for chairs power. And I would charge at a specific voltage, lower than the BMS is meant for, and I would determine if they were truly balanced and if the termination current was correct before stopping the charger.

[Fred005]

That only shows that each need/wish/requirement/possibility/constraint/obligation is far different from a user and an other.
In MY CASE, I agree spending some $ in a ''not the best configuration'' and using the rest of my life enjoying sport or hike/wild life photo, or so.

I don't need a F1, only a "draught horse".
And because of my configuration is fully sufficient FOR ME, I think I'll continue in this way, for the moment.
And even if I don't want to continue in this way, if tomorrow I buy 8 230ah cells, no more option than using a BMS I have (''no more option'', I mean an option wich will not make me the slave of a computer trying to build fine settings for this or this other charger).

Well, 14:30 here, sunny weather, time to disconnect my Victron charger wich is trying with the help of 2 fuc... BMS to destroy my 2 LiFePo4 and burning my X8 F+ !!!! Lol.

[expresso]

i agree everyone has different needs or wants and for different reasons -

cant dwell on the PL8 - its gone - done - if you have them - its great - if you dont have it - then your stuck with trying different chargers

or an external BMS to just charge it at least - you can still build a pack - as much as you can fit - make an external BMS - when you get home - connect it and charge - hopefully it works enough to get you thru the next day -

nothing is perfect - you do your best - with new users who want to do this now -

what do you tell them ? what would you recommend to new users who want to do lithium now ?

[sacharlie]

As I understand it the pl8 is not a charger. It's a CMS...charge management system, no.
A BMS is a battery manage system screwing up the cells both in charging and discharging.
There are companies building 12v...24v...36v...48v...72v batteries with BMS here in the USA. Do they work, yes; how well, don"t know but they sell em.

So why is it the pl8 is the only CMS out there.

[Arima]

what would you recommend to new users who want to do lithium now ?

I have this question also. Just ordered some cells (for an add-on pack) this morning. While I was lucky to get a pl8 I still don't know how to create my own presets. As far as I'm concerned that makes me dependent. I'd like to find a way to be independent of any manufacturer or product. Options are usually a good thing.

[Burgerman]

As I understand it the pl8 is not a charger. It's a CMS...charge management system, no.

Well you obviously dont understand it. Its a complete charger, (and discharger), battery analysis and portable cell balancing charger with a well developed and fully programable multi chemistry capability with PC programability and monitoring.

A BMS is a battery manage system screwing up the cells both in charging and discharging.
There are companies building 12v...24v...36v...48v...72v batteries with BMS here in the USA. Do they work, yes; how well, don"t know but they sell em.

They sell mobility charger with your powerchair too. And those are equally shit. They screw up lead batteries. Just because theres many selling these solutions doent make it a good idea. Its a bit like all the climate change fanatics. They all KNOW its true. Even though its mostly bollocks. As I said, anything can/does work to some degree as a charger. But reliability, and issues such as BMS mosfet failures causing fires (not great in a powerchair) and the fact that all of the ready to go lead brick replacements are literally the same Ah as the lead battery they replace so little gain once you allow a 20% buffer against over discharge, instead of 200Ah done properly with 4 to 5 times the range in our case, all help to make them pointless and overpriced with less lifespan. Its not only the BMS thats the issue.

So why is it the pl8 is the only CMS out there.

Its not a CMS whatever that might be. Its a full, multi chemistry battery charger along with literally hundreds of others also available from almost as many different manufacturers.

[Burgerman]

I have this question also. Just ordered some cells (for an add-on pack) this morning. While I was lucky to get a pl8 I still don't know how to create my own presets. As far as I'm concerned that makes me dependent. I'd like to find a way to be independent of any manufacturer or product. Options are usually a good thing.

The only ay to do that is to learn about batteries and charging. So YOU know what works best for them and then can use any charger and figure out what setting you need to be able to control. And what to set them to and why.
Meanwhile ...


Problem solved.

You cant use stock presets that come with the charger as it has hidden settings to trip us up. So heres a full set of USER presets to use. You can modify these in any way you want, but will not really need to much.


Lead and lithium. Self explanitory. Save to desktop. And from the file menue at the top choose RESTORE USER PRESETS.

[Arima]

Thank you for the presets. You are correct...it is my responsibility to learn what to do and when. I'm happy to have the pl8 but I can't have peace of mind until I know how to live without it.

I'm using the lead presets you sent. I'll be back with more questions I'm sure.

[Burgerman]

OK Start learning! Do you understand this charge recomendation page? This is ONLY for MK GEL.
Tell me what part of this you dont understand and I will explain it so you do. Copy and past the parts you dont understand.

MK gel only:
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK1.pdf

Answer HERE viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10798

As this is the wrong thread to do this.

[Fred005]

I've been using a "very bad" 2 batteries LiFePo4 solution since 4 months. 110ah each.
You know, these LiFePo4 pack used to replace lead battery in a car/truck for exemple. With, for sure, a BMS. All, sealed up in a plastic case without ventilation.
In huge difficult conditions: Hot temperature, very difficult area, I mean long and huge climbs, and so.
Ok, I know, 4 months/1000km + is nothing.

But those are not typical because the biggest killer of LiFe cells are discharge loads. And your batteries are BIGGER Physically than will fit into a powerchair. And are no bigger in Ah than the equivelent sized lead battery at around 100Ah. So you spent a lot. And gained around 40% in range only because you can use all the 100Ah where lead does not alow that. Had you fitted say 8 cells and done it properly you could have had 5x that range, and 240Ah. So its a very expensive less reliable way to only gain 40% range. So as far as range, reliability, cell longevity, charge rates, and KNOWING what is actually happening you are much worse off. Those 100Ah batteries cost more that a 240Ah setup!
However, my bad 110ah LiFePo4 batteries, gave me 100% satisfaction, never failed down: more than 10h endurance for around 40km and D+ 2000m. 40km/10h, you can imagine how is the field where I hike; not flat.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong, and a lot writing that.
X8 OEM batteries 75ah (2): 46.8 kg
My LiFePo4 batteries 110ah (2): 25.2 kg
Saving 21.6 kg ...

If you ignore or cover up the importance of weight, you're just not credible. And your sentence ''And gained around 40% in range only ...'' is just ... a huge bullshit (sorry).

I was following your ideas, your advices when I asked you many questions for my Power Modul settings.
Some of them were very good for my use, some less. But, they helped me, a lot, to go forward, and now my settings are exactely what I need (even if for U they will appear stupid).
But reading what you wrote in this message will confirm and encourage me to follow my instinc saying me BMS will be the right solution for me.

They will fire my X8 ...
Bullshit again.
As I wrote previously, I know plenty people using since a decade LiFePo4, not for wheelchair use only, but for many and many, including aeronotical and marine purpose, where fire is NEVER welcome.

[Burgerman]

I'm sorry, but you're wrong, and a lot writing that.
X8 OEM batteries 75ah (2): 46.8 kg
My LiFePo4 batteries 110ah (2): 25.2 kg
Saving 21.6 kg ...

But only because you ENLARGED the battery compartment because grp24 lead brick replacement lithiums are the same Ah as the group24 lead. So I am comparing the group 27/31 battery you could now fit in your chair. Those are THE SAME AH as the super expensive lithium replacements that you fitted. So I am comparing like with like. So you gained only 40% extra range over the now bigger lead battery you could also have installed.

If you ignore or cover up the importance of weight, you're just not credible. And your sentence ''And gained around 40% in range only ...'' is just ... a huge bullshit (sorry).

No its not. I have done enough lithium conversions and measured the difference! And I know how to calculate it easily too. Your batteries are 100Ah. You cannot run them down until the BMS chops off power for 2 reasons. One lithium does not like 1005 discharge. And 2 you never know whan they will actually cut off and leave you stuck. And so at best you can use maybe 90% of that and pray you dont have a low cell.
If you had a 100Ah lead battery you stop after around just after half of that Ah is extracted due to voltage drop chemically and surface charge effect. So you will have a realistic gain of around 40% over the group 27 or 31 lead battery you could also fit.

I was following your ideas, your advices when I asked you many questions for my Power Modul settings.
Some of them were very good for my use, some less. But, they helped me, a lot, to go forward, and now my settings are exactely what I need (even if for U they will appear stupid).
But reading what you wrote in this message will confirm and encourage me to follow my instinc saying me BMS will be the right solution for me.

Instincts are meaningless. Measurements and understanding what is happening is everything.

As for your range, you have a very costly 40% better than a 110/110Ah group 27 or 31 lead.
For the same cost you could have 240Ah. That gives a HUGE 400 to 500% advantage over 100Ah lead grp27/31 And its the same price!
Which is better 40% extra rangegaining only the peukert advantage over lead? Or getting 4 to 5x more range?

They will fire my X8 ...
Bullshit again.
As I wrote previously, I know plenty people using since a decade LiFePo4, not for wheelchair use only, but for many and many, including aeronotical and marine purpose, where fire is NEVER welcome.

There are many at boeing that had to ground the dreamliner, and a couple of profesional EV car conversion companies that will not even allow a BMS equiped car into their workshops. Nt to mention exploding scooters, and balancing segways, or endless stories of fires all over the EV and Ebike forums. Almost every one traced to a failed BMS. Same with cell deaths. So thats bullshit!

[Burgerman]

Theres even an example on here. Of one supplied by a manufacturer catching fire and them having to get a disable occupant out of it while it was burning before it got worse. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4460&start=40#p84092

Non of us doing it properly have ever had any fires. And theres quite a few here doing it this way. Maybe 2 or 3 using manufacturer BMS setups. Inc you. Of those one already caught fire! Not a great start.

I guessed it was the BMS that had failed and thats exactly what it was. A couple of lead brick replacement lithium supplied by the chair maker.

Have a read. Theres plenty more if you are interested. And it can happen while nobody is there too burning your house down.

Marvelous things these BMS! viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4460&start=40#p84092

But a fire is a minor risk. Thats not the primary reason that they are bad news. Its just another reason... And one of the reasons that the powerchair manufacturers dont fit them even as an option. Too much fire and reliability risk.

I am not saying DONT use them. Just that you should not be in denial. And accept and understand the risk. Mosfets fail. Suddenly. A transister is the fastest fuse on 3 legs. But sometims they fail shorted. And can cause meltes balance wires that all then short together and thats what starts the fires. Understand the risk.

[Fred005]

Ok ok, even an (mean if I understand well, one, 1) example on here ...
You're right, I'm wrong.
That's perfect.
And that's all for/from me.

See U.

[Burgerman]

No. As I said, I gave one example from the 3 people on here we know of using those BMS standard lead brick replacements. And one burned and destroyed the chair. So 1 out of 3 isnt looking great is it.

I also gave other example you choose to ignore or conviniently already forgot.

I can link to hundreds of others DIY BMS caused fires that burned and destroyed homes that were not mobility related. And I already gave examples. Theres been literally thousands of burning laptops that were all traced to BMS failures. Across almost all manufacturers. You are choosing to ignore all the example such as the boeing dreamliner BMS fires even. If they cant make it reliable so I am sure you cant!

Anyway your choice. I thought it better to be informed. But you dont want that.

As I said:

I am not saying DONT use them. Just that you should not be in denial. And accept and understand the risk.

[Dan]

Well \i went ahead and ordered five cables, they came this morning.
At this time the revolectrix website ://www.store.revolectrix.com is not working.

[steves1977uk]

Yes, the revolectrix.com DNS name is gone, so the website is no more.

Steve

[sacharlie]

So if you don't have a pl8 you can't properly charge your lifepo4 pack?
Lifepo4 cells can catch fire?
Is that the bottom line in this thread?

[Burgerman]

Of course not. Thats absolutely and very clearly not what I said. Obviously you cannot read or understand complicated things.

Or are trying to start an argument again.
Get someone that can read and that can understand complicated things, to read it, and explain it to you very slowly.

[sacharlie]

Of course not. Thats absolutely not what I said. Obviously you cannot read or understand well.

Get someone that can, to read it from the start, and explain it to you slowly.

Understood you to mention 12v brick lifepo4 battery with bms catching fire burning houses.
Not you but others seem at a loss without the pl8.

[Burgerman]

How is that my fault? LEARN somthing.

Thats what I did. I have a multitude of ways to charge. So does shirley. Its just that sometimes things are not simple. Why is that? Because its just not! Sorry about that.

[Fred005]

https://www.industrie-techno.com/articl ... hium.44982

[Burgerman]

Understood you to mention 12v brick lifepo4 battery with bms catching fire burning houses.
Not you but others seem at a loss without the pl8.

Both true. And predictable. I even gave you a link to a page telling you that they had to physically lift a youngster out of a burning chair. And no lithium ion phosphate DO NOT BURN. Unless the BMS fails, the wiring all melts and shorts out on a bundle of cables that sets fire to the chairs plastics, battery box lid, cushions, wiring tyres etc. As it did. Once you get a good enough fire THEN the fire heats up the lithium battery.

Which contains an electrolyte which is very much like cooking oil. It appears as hot oil or vapour. "Cooking oil" then boils out of the cells in a fire as it heats them up. And that burns extremely well. So you end up with an inferno. That is not common. But its one of the reasons that non of the mainstream manufacturers recomend or fit LiFePO4. Its not the CELLS that cause the fire. They are no more dangerous than driving home with a bottle of cooking oil. Just like the boeing that had the same problem that grounded many aircraft due to a huge fire in flight caused by the BMS.

But as I said, USE a BMS if you wish. But do understand the potential issues. And this is just one. It probably wont happen to you. But it could. And it has to others. Even a user on here. Hence the link. Totally destroyed chair. Saved child.

[sacharlie]

How is that my fault? LEARN somthing.

Thats what I did. I have a multitude of ways to charge. So does shirley. Its just that sometimes things are not simple. Why is that? Because its just not! Sorry about that.

Calm down.
I just made 2 simple observations.
I have seen videos of people trying to set fire to lifepo4 cells with a blow torch and did not burn, so through they can't burn.
As to no luck without pl8 for proper charge it seems the discussion jumped to BMS as opposed another charger.

[Burgerman]

They cant burn by shorting, puncture or overcharge. They just release a load of (flamable) white smoke. But no existing fire and no problem.
But if a BMS mosfet fails shorted, you get fires. The cables melt, glow, melt each other. Then they set fire to anything around them. The LiFePO4 can be involved too but only in the same way as a bottle of cooking oil or lamp oil.

If a BMS fails with LiPO calls or lithium ion cobalt types you not only get a fire but a very energetic firework too. Another reason the entire hobby industry uses balance chargers. No BMS.