PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

[irun4fundotca]

just replaced two batts that were rough $333.41 later , i plan on checking throttle pot & the brushes next

[DougL]

I'm with Woody on the brushes and best to check those ASAP just to be sure there's not metal on the brush wearing the commutator on the motor and doing damage.

[irun4fundotca]

If its not raining tomorrow I'll do that, thanks

[irun4fundotca]

I tested my throttle ...
0 - 008 @2000k setting on metter
0 - 6.6 @200k
0.01 - 6.45 @20k

[woodygb]

Did you test the resistance change as the throttle is depressed?...does the resistance rise in a nice linear fashion with no jumping?

Use the 20k setting or 10k if your meter has one.

[irun4fundotca]

yes it moves smoothly from 0 - xxx values above

i put the rear end on blocks and the motor works fine from 0 to full without stuttering

uploading video now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI6-UmNepGY

[Burgerman]

Thats noisy!

Did it always sound that bad? Maybe a mechanical problem. Or motor wire connection intermittent. If brushes are OK.

[irun4fundotca]

I dont really know, I traded a fully working 91 yamaha g2e for $1200 and this cart as a project
the remaining batts are slowly going to be replaced as i can afford them

yet to check brushes, I just removed the utility box and rear cover now

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[Burgerman]

Well looking at the condition of it, and hearing it, I would trade it back quickly.

the remaining batts are slowly going to be replaced as i can afford them

Do that only if you want to ruin the new ones as you get them. And only buy very high quality batteries.

[irun4fundotca]

yeah they are trojans

i'm tearing down the motor to put new brushes in it

the trade was worth it I think still, seeing the cart was my profit for selling it for the $950 they wanted out of the yamaha

[irun4fundotca]

brushes are fine lots of material left
the local shop said they will repair my field coil and brush stud I inadvertently broke short and off the coil
plus freshen the motor up for all contacts and run a test for much less than $100, peace of mind to just have t done right
I did paint it, but the grease makes it dirty lol

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[Burgerman]

Thats built like a starter motor. I am surprised its efficient enough for an electric car.

These generally use permenant magnets.

[irun4fundotca]

it does ..or the yamaha that had the same motor did 32kl/h with two people and a mid sized dog on board
this I expect to go slower due to the body being all steel over the plastic one the yamaha had

[Burgerman]

No it doesn't... Those coils around the outside are the magnets once powered up. Which takes energy to do.

[irun4fundotca]

I was saying it does 32klm/h but corrected that the yamaha did that using the same type motor
not that it had magnets, I have rewound by hand these type but smaller and rc hobby grade gimbal motors, so I know what you mean by the electro magnets

[irun4fundotca]

got the motor back today the guys at the local shop here are really great
still need one more battery been doing odds and ends to restore the cart

[stampede]

4.7k? ... I use 47k.

You did on the FTDI cable but I had to install a 4.7K pullup on the TX line of the Kenwood cable. When I put it on an Oscope, the TX line was on 0v while Rx was 5V and I saw the same high 5V on my FTDI cable. So when I opened up the Kenwood cable and looked at the circuit board, there was a missing resistor on the Tx output line. And BTW, with Tx low and how the diode gets oriented, it would pull the RX line down and cause an Inhibit condition. I pulled an old PC system board out of recycle bin, found a tiny 4.7k resistor and took it out and put it into the Kenwood circuit. Now I get a nice clean 5V on TX and clean transitions to 0V for signals.

did you have a 4 wire cable? i bought the same one, but it was 3 wire...
if 3 wire, where did you put the 4.7k pullup (ie what 5v source)

[woodygb]

The FTDI cable that I now recommend instead of the Kenwood etc .... has 6 WIRES.

FTDI based USB to TTL Serial Cable are designed using the the standard FT232RL chipset.
The cables provide a fast, simple way to connect devices with a TTL level serial interface to USB.
RX and TX LEDs indicator
The cables are available with a 6-way SIL, 0.1" connector
TTL levels is 3.3V
The TTL-232R cables are a family of USB to TTL serial UART converter cables incorporating FTD's FT232RQ USB to Serial
UART interface IC device which handles all the USB signalling and protocols. The cables provide a fast, simple way to connect
devices with a TTL level serial interface to USB
Each TTL-232R cable contains a small internal electronic circuit board, utilising the FT232R, which is encapsulated into the USB
connector end of the cable. The other end of the cable comes with a selection of different connectors supporting various applications .
Cables are FCC, CE, RoHS compliant and are available at TTL levels 3.3V.
Cables are available with either a 6-way SIL,0.1pitch connector, a 3.5mmAudio Jack, an 8 way, keyed 2mmpitch connector
(intended for use with VMUSIC2 or VDRIVE2) or bare, tinned wire ended connections
The USB side of the cable is USB powered and USB 2.0 full speed compatible. Each cable is
1.8mlong and supports a data transfer rate up to 3 Mbaud
Red wire: 5V
Black wire: GND
White wire: RXD
Green wire: TXD
Yellow wire: RTS
Blue wire: CTS

[ex-Gooserider]

As a possible consistent USB-Serial adapter, have you thought of looking at the Adafruit (and probably other vendors) 'FTDI Friend'?
https://www.adafruit.com/products/284

It is sold as a way to program home-brew Arduino setups, and also the low-budget clones that don't have a built-in USB chip...

It's a little board with a mini-USB input cable jack on one end, and a header on the other, and uses the genuine FTDI chip - it would probably take a bit of figuring / testing to find a configuration that would let it work as a chair programming cable, but once done, it would seem like it might make life simpler than trying to deal with all the different radio cables and random Chinese production methods that seem to be a common theme in this thread....

Seems like it would be easier to point at a single product that is going to be a known product with consistent properties...

ex-Gooserider

[stampede]

a couple of thoughts:
1) i think my usb Kenwood 3-wire WAS working, but for whatever reason the GC3 was not recognized by the PGDT software. this seems to match what DougL saw too. i had CommsActive, the software displayed the controller type, controller serial number, and controller type number. but i kept getting the "unrecognized sub type" error. of course, i hit the dang preset button and it won't go forward, maybe i can upload a new .prg if someone has one for jazzy select elite.

2) is the .prg data stored in the control box or in the joystick pod? i am still unclear on that.

[Burgerman]

Power module.

[DougL]

it sure would beat spending the $10+ on the Kenwood cables and find out it's different and doesn't work besides being only good for one thing. I have the old 5V FTDI cable but it didn't work for me and Woody said it isn't as reliable as the 3.3V version. So that FTDI Friend product would be a more valuable tool for other things besides tweaking the PowerBase controller. I will order one and try that one on my Jazzy units.

Doug

As a possible consistent USB-Serial adapter, have you thought of looking at the Adafruit (and probably other vendors) 'FTDI Friend'?
https://www.adafruit.com/products/284

It is sold as a way to program home-brew Arduino setups, and also the low-budget clones that don't have a built-in USB chip...

It's a little board with a mini-USB input cable jack on one end, and a header on the other, and uses the genuine FTDI chip - it would probably take a bit of figuring / testing to find a configuration that would let it work as a chair programming cable, but once done, it would seem like it might make life simpler than trying to deal with all the different radio cables and random Chinese production methods that seem to be a common theme in this thread....

Seems like it would be easier to point at a single product that is going to be a known product with consistent properties...

ex-Gooserider

[woodygb]

a couple of thoughts:
1) i think my usb Kenwood 3-wire WAS working, but for whatever reason the GC3 was not recognized by the PGDT software. this seems to match what DougL saw too. i had CommsActive, the software displayed the controller type, controller serial number, and controller type number. but i kept getting the "unrecognized sub type" error. of course, i hit the dang preset button and it won't go forward, maybe i can upload a new .prg if someone has one for jazzy select elite.

2) is the .prg data stored in the control box or in the joystick pod? i am still unclear on that.

Try choosing NEW Template in the software... then ...VR2 .. and upload that to your controller ..NO GUARANTEE that it will work.

[Ardillaroja]

I have a new Permobil F5. I was promised a dealer level programmer, but was not even given that. The salesman has selective amnesia about it. I've read through some of this thread. I am not very high tech and definitely can't make my own connectors, etc. Can someone update me on the best bet for getting an OEM programmer? I'm hoping for something other than "It's not really possible." I have to say that the chair is programmed okay for me, but I think it's ridiculous to have to go without this. These people are such weasels ... I have been driving a wheelchair for almost 28 years and am almost 32. I clearly can program a wheelchair better than some random guy from Permobil who took his 6 week course . I will do a review of the F5 in a week or two. Thanks!

[Burgerman]

random guy from Permobil who took his 6 week course

Those are usually day courses with lots of breaks for snacks. Seriously.

[Al B]

Would anyone have a wire diagram for 9 pin serial to 3 pin KLR on a Quantum Edge??

I have looked here and everyone is interested in USB adapters, which I understand, but I do a lot of CNC machine stuff and have several puters with serial ports, which I assume will be easier setting up than an adapter. But then again I am totally new to this power chair stuff. I just bought my first one used, I wont probably be confined to it for another year or so, but I would like to get a handle on service and mods before I am.

Thanks in advance


BTW... just joined this site and I find it quite informative!

[Ardillaroja]

So I gather this is the commercial source of the OEM programmer?

http://www.mobilityscooterpart.com/prod ... php?id=178

Has anyone actually ordered from them? And did they ship to North America? I gather that the alternative is to somehow get the program and then build a dongle that will connect my PC to the chair, but there is no way I would ever be able to do that.

Thanks for your help.

[steves1977uk]

You can't build the dongle unless you somehow reverse engineered one, even then PGDT uses proprietary chips and firmware.

Steve

[ex-Gooserider]

Would anyone have a wire diagram for 9 pin serial to 3 pin KLR on a Quantum Edge??

I have looked here and everyone is interested in USB adapters, which I understand, but I do a lot of CNC machine stuff and have several puters with serial ports, which I assume will be easier setting up than an adapter. But then again I am totally new to this power chair stuff. I just bought my first one used, I wont probably be confined to it for another year or so, but I would like to get a handle on service and mods before I am.

Thanks in advance


BTW... just joined this site and I find it quite informative!

Actually, if you look at what the various cables are doing, they are all some form of USB-Serial conversion, that then uses the serial output... I forget (thankfully) most of my serial cable skills, but in essence what I believe the cables are doing is either pairing up all the handshake pairs to take them out of the picture, or doing the handshaking invisibly in the converter chip; and then using a diode to combine TX and RX. The three wires on the XLR plug are +24V, GND and Inhibit / Data - for programming you only use GND and the Inhibit / Data wires.

I happen to own an 'official' P&G cable - it is a SERIAL cable, which I use with an FTDI USB-Serial cable. The serial plug end of the cable has a small board with some conversion hardware... If you dig back into the old messages, you can even find some photos of the board after the covers were taken off, and some reverse engineering discussion - apparently it is mostly a level shifter to convert from a PC's 232 UART to a true TTL, and some buffer circuitry....

ex-Gooserider

[holck]

I've contacted Taiwan Yo-Lin Ltd. (http://www.mobilityscooterparts.com) and asked for a price quote. They will send a "PG R-net PC Programmer (OEM ver.)" to me for USD 844, all inclusive, except possible local taxes. But do I understand it correctly that it may also be possible to download it? Do anyone here have experiences with the company and the product?

Regards,
Jesper, Denmark